Complete Romoval of Head armor in the 109 E-7

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Is it a realistic option?

[Finkeren]

The entire armour plate was originally a field mod introduced on Bf 109s in the first half of 1940 after the first combat experiences in WW2 had proven the pilot to be quite vulnerable against even light MG fire. Before that, the Bf 109 had no headrest at all and the pilot sat with his head just sticking out in an empty space under the canopy. The armour was quickly made permanent and expanded with the curved plate above the head on the E4 model. However, the armour plate was simply bolted onto the canopy and was easy to remove, though from pictures it seems to have been rarely done.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Finkeren

[bivalov]

interesting - there is was official "ban" on removal of this part of armor? (and statistics/mentions about REAL practice in presence of this "ban")....... or it was only wish of any pilot?

Edited December 26, 2015 by bivalov

[JtD]

Galland in his memoirs mentions he was very unhappy when this plate was installed, the extra weight reducing performance. The next day he went up with this unwanted ballast, and he got hit by a Spitfire. Some projectiles were stopped by the armour plate. Needless to say, he changed is opinion about the plate that day.

 

But since Galland had to go up with the armour plate and was at that time one of the most famous and influential fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe, I'd say its installation wasn't just up to the whims of the pilot.

Edited October 31, 2015 by JtD

[Finkeren]

interesting - there is was official "ban" on removal of this part of armor? (and statistics/mentions about REAL practice in presence of this "ban")....... or it is was only wish of any pilot?

Honest answer: I have no idea. As I said, photographic evidence would indicate, that the armour was very rarely removed in the field, and understandably so. It was installed because of pilot requests in the first place (propably some "near misses" that made pilots think "Hmmm, it would be really neat to have an armour plate behind my head")

 

Yes, it took away a bit of FoV but really not that much, and besides: While pilots did check their own sixes, it was really the job of your "Rottenkammerat" to watch your six o'clock low and vice versa.

[Trooper117]

Can't get this modification to be removed when I check the tick box.... both on the E7 and F4. Anyone else finding this?

[HotPursuit]

Can't get this modification to be removed when I check the tick box.... both on the E7 and F4. Anyone else finding this?

 

Only the extended piece that curves over the pilots head is removed.

[Trooper117]

Only the extended piece that curves over the pilots head is removed.

 

Ah, gotcha!... many thanks for the info

[SharpeXB]

"The Spitfire had turned tight into me, and he had me good. Only the protective armor plate behind my head kept me from being killed by a 20mm. I used to inspect all of the aircraft, as some men would take this plate out. It reduced rearward visibility by about twenty percent, so they removed it. I ordered all the plates replaced, and I made it clear I would court-martial any man who disobeyed. Three more of my pilots had a similar experience, and they were believers."

- Johannes Steinhoff

[Trooper117]

Great

 

However, I'm not in a real war and I can't really be killed playing a game, so I'll leave that top part off... I'll be the rebel pilot that sticks two fingers up to the CO 

[Cybermat47]

Great

 

However, I'm not in a real war and I can't really be killed playing a game, so I'll leave that top part off... I'll be the rebel pilot that sticks two fingers up to the CO

Well, doing that to the CO sounds a lot more dangerous than going without armour

[Trooper117]

Off to the Russian front then!... No wait 

[SharpeXB]

However, I'm not in a real war and I can't really be killed playing a game, so I'll leave that top part off... I'll be the rebel pilot that sticks two fingers up to the CO

When I do a "Dead is Dead" career in PWCG I'll be leaving the cockpit armor in place.

Edited November 5, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Trooper117]

Well done you... you are my teutonic hero!

[bivalov]

"The Spitfire had turned tight into me, and he had me good. Only the protective armor plate behind my head kept me from being killed by a 20mm. I used to inspect all of the aircraft, as some men would take this plate out. It reduced rearward visibility by about twenty percent, so they removed it. I ordered all the plates replaced, and I made it clear I would court-martial any man who disobeyed. Three more of my pilots had a similar experience, and they were believers."

- Johannes Steinhoff

it is original quote, right?

 

 

i.e. seems that in russian translation were skipped some interesting details - http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/steinhoff_j/04.html -

 

"Я знал, что некоторые из моих пилотов снимали ее, потому что хотели иметь непрерывный обзор задней полусферы, и я решил, что прикажу им вернуть ее на место."

Edited November 30, 2015 by bivalov

[6./ZG26_Emil]

When I do a "Dead is Dead" career in PWCG I'll be leaving the cockpit armor in place.

 

That was exactly my thought when I saw this. I've always removed it or used the glass one on the G2 but if you are doing DiD it's a small price to pay compared to getting killed after 30 or 40 sorties

[-TBC-AeroAce]

A random side question. How did they implement this armor on 110s? Is it correct that 110 should have no armor as default?

[Yogiflight]

BTW, the "Galland Panzer" called, glass headarmor was, as far as I found, not introduced before early 1943.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

A random side question. How did they implement this armor on 110s? Is it correct that 110 should have no armor as default?

I guess the E without armor and bombs basically resembles a light C-series.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

This may explain some of the concerns, its only first chapter of the book but its specifically related to European and American experiences with protection of the pilot and fuel tanks :

http://explodingfueltanks.com/pdf/ExplodingFuelTanks-chapter1.pdf

 

Part about German protective measures starts at page 22.

[LukeFF]

BTW, the "Galland Panzer" called, glass headarmor was, as far as I found, not introduced before early 1943.

 

Negative, it was a late 1942 modification: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/113600-bf-109-f-4g-2-galland-panzer-armoured-headrest-upgrade/

[Yogiflight]

OK, so it was approved on november, 18th 1942 by the RLM, but the question is, has it allready been seen near Stalingrad?

[bivalov]

guys, what exactly written in end of this document ("Deckblaetter Nr. 3-6 Juni 1943")? - http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20109/T_2109%20F1Rumpfwerk.pdf

here is also was mentioned "panzerglas" for Bf 109 F-1 bis F-4, although, looks like that is just short technical notes.
 
 

Negative, it was a late 1942 modification: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/113600-bf-109-f-4g-2-galland-panzer-armoured-headrest-upgrade/

primary discussion     - http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/523-soviet-trials-bf-109g-2-g-4/

Edited November 30, 2015 by bivalov

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

guys, what exactly written in end of this document ("Deckblaetter Nr. 3-6 Juni 1943")? - http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20109/T_2109%20F1Rumpfwerk.pdf

 

here is also was mentioned "panzerglas" for Bf 109 F-1 bis F-4, although, looks like that is just short technical notes.

 

 

primary discussion     - http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/523-soviet-trials-bf-109g-2-g-4/

Armored Glass Windshield?

[KoN_]

"The Spitfire had turned tight into me, and he had me good. Only the protective armor plate behind my head kept me from being killed by a 20mm. I used to inspect all of the aircraft, as some men would take this plate out. It reduced rearward visibility by about twenty percent, so they removed it. I ordered all the plates replaced, and I made it clear I would court-martial any man who disobeyed. Three more of my pilots had a similar experience, and they were believers."

- Johannes Steinhoff

Well i dont think that Armor plate is working in the 190 ...lol  and only 20% loss in vis . I would def keep that plate in tact .

[bivalov]

Armored Glass Windshield?

no, exactly "Kopfpanzerung auf Panzerglas" instead of "Panzerplatten".

Edited November 30, 2015 by bivalov

[Cybermat47]

OK, so it was approved on november, 18th 1942 by the RLM, but the question is, has it allready been seen near Stalingrad?

I don't think the field mods are based on what was at Stalingrad, but what was available to the VVS and Luftwaffe in general at the time. So while there might not have been G-2s with armoured glass headrests at Stalingrad, other Luftwaffe units did have them.