German seasonal speed tests

[Reflected]

Folks,

 

I ran some speed tests comparing BoS results under the - more or less -same conditions as the real life tests. Here are the results:

 

 

 

All tests done with closed rads, unless otherwise specified. Of course I could have made mistakes, anyone is welcome to repeat them. I'm curious what values you guys get.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Reflected

[Finkeren]

So basically the German fighters are too fast across the board? I just knew it! Damn the devs and their pro-German bias!

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

Of course I could have made mistakes, anyone is welcome to repeat them

Perhaps the English 190 was not in good shape.

[Reflected]

Perhaps the English 190 was not in good shape.

 

 

Yes, or the Brits didn't know how to fly it

 

The source you posted is the 3rd line in my test report in the FW section.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

You can't compare middle european winter climate with eastern climate we have in BoS, hence the great error in the first test for the G-2.

 

The E-3 (DB601N) is very different from the E-7 (DB601A) and actually shouldn't be compareable. They might be similar at deck but have a different performance envelop over altitude.

 

The english test of the 190 seems faulty indeed.

 

(Note the GL speed with Start und Notleistung has mistakenly be mixed up with Steig und Kampfleistung and vise versa. Don't know if that's an error of the scan/edit or document itself.)

Edited October 30, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Reflected]

@Stuka:

 

Agreed:

So if we consider the extreme cold over Stalingrad, then our G-2 is pretty much spot on. So is our 190, according to German tests.

The F-4 is definitely too fast, but mostly at emergency power. At 1.3 ATA it looks pretty close.

 

The E3 vs E7 - yes I know, those tests are the least conclusive due to the difference between those models and the fact that they were performed at altitude. I'd be very interested to see some good comparison though.

[ZachariasX]

Yes, or the Brits didn't know how to fly it

 

The source you posted is the 3rd line in my test report in the FW section.

 

According to Eric Brown (I doubt the Krauts had many pilots that knew better to fly aircraft than him), the had various FW-190's over time. But they were also usually not in pristine condition. Some better, some really in need of an overhaul. Basically just what you get by random sampling of front line fighters.

 

There is a test where allied pilots didn't like the Kommandogerät, because it wouldn't allow sublte changes on the "PCL", a clear indication that something was wrong with the plane. Nevertheless they did full test with that bird as well where it about matched the speed of the Corsair, but couldn't turn with that and the testers frowned at that finding. Another one they used to compare top speeds between Spitfire (Mk.XIV I think), Mustang and the FW190. The 190 was the slowest by a good margin as well as classified the race with a DNF, as the engine blew up during the flight.

 

It's a clear indication that for those tests, they just took what they had at hand in that moment and that seemed to be resonably airworthy. Making them airworthy did not imply all the work you would to today as required by the FAA.

[Art]

Perhaps the English 190 was not in good shape.

 

Yep it wasnt. They tested Fw 190, which has caped or limited engine. Possibly due to overheating.

[DD_Arthur]

The 1942 tests conducted by the RAF were on a front line example of an A3 delivered to them by Arnim Faber.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw-190-rep2092.pdf

 

Worth a look at.  They describe the engine as de-rated as that is what was stated on the engine data card found in the cockpit.  The initial report gives two performance figures; the ones actually achieved in flight and then an estimate of performance at full engine rating.  It's not certain whether they understood what the boost limits of the engine were at that time as the full engine rating estimated 1.5 ata.

 

In the summer of 1942 a new FW190 was too important a prize to risk blowing its engine before a full evaluation could be made.  It underwent some 9 hours of performance testing - which gives us the quoted figures - before being handed over to the fighter evaluation unit where it was flown extensively before being dismantled which allowed the engine to be bench tested.    

[JtD]

And the RAF test is telling us that the Fw190 climbed better in 2nd charger gear at altitude than in first down low, while developing less power and flying in worse conditions. If there's one Fw190 test that should be disregarded, it's that one.

[DD_Arthur]

 If there's one Fw190 test that should be disregarded, it's that one.

 

Hardly.  Apart from the fact they painted it cammo green it would appear to be a normal, fully functioning, staffel maintained FW190.

 

What is curious is the "de-rating" comment.  What exactly does this mean in this context?  

[RAY-EU]

Very Good . Thanks ...

 

Now in summer is better and there is less diferences about real and BOS ... Il2 BOS & BOM has done a very good job .

Getting better , so more realistic

But if needs to improve to more realistic history WW2 archives data ?

 

But if it needs may be correct ?, the difference is very low , this is good ... I ussualy pilot germany Il2 BOS planes , and thought for me : I do not like they reduce speed ...But definity Yes ; over all I want a history WW2 for the most realistic simulator Il2 BoS & BoM .

And next We have to:... Better , now we need the other test : the Russian WW2 top secret public archives , to compare the with the Russian planes Top speeds , maybe if the Russian forum can help us to translate WW2 soviet history archives ...

to compare Russian planes speeds ...

Bite another ( Please) FOR The Russian Planes test !? ...

[JtD]

Hardly.  Apart from the fact they painted it cammo green it would appear to be a normal, fully functioning, staffel maintained FW190.

They achieved results that are physically impossible and did not document their procedure detailed enough to explain why. It's the least reliable Fw190 test out there.

 

What is curious is the "de-rating" comment.  What exactly does this mean in this context?

That the BMW801D was de-rated. Which it was, limited to 1.35/1.28ata - as the British state correctly in their report. Edited October 31, 2015 by JtD

[RAY-EU]

This is a good web from many ww2 aircraft test from ww2 the altitud are in feets and speed in m.p.h.

is from the same archives of WW2 , very interesting¡

I think IL2 Sturmovik BOS & BOM and 777 studios has done a very good JOB & has present all history ww2 documents that they mentioned before because the tests are only small differences from IL2 SIM .

 

FW 190 A-3 Performance

 

 

 

Summary

 

    Fw 190 Report No. 234
    Air Ministry and M.A.P., 5 August 1942         Performance of Fw 190 Fighter, Report No. 2092
    Air Ministry A.I.2(g), 11 August 1942         FW 190 Aa-3 mit BMW 801 D
    Baubeschreibung Nr 1060, 26 November 1942
    Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau         FW 190 Aa-3 mit BMW 801 D
    Steigleistungen & Geschwindigkeiten, 26 November 1942
    Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau         FW 190 mit BMW 801D Normaljäger, 29.11.42         Vorläufige Flugstrecken FW 190 A-3 mit BM 801-D motor         Engine Limitations for BMW 801 C/D
    Handbuch für die Flugmoteren BMW 801 C und BMW 801 D
    BMW Flugmotorenbau-Gesellschaft m.b.H, May 1942         Fw 190A Speed and Climb, RAE & Focke-Wulf Data, 7/10/43         F.W.190 A-3 (BMW.801D) Performance Tests
    Royal Aircraft Establishment, 21 December 1943         The effect of compressibility on the drags of external stores carried on the F.W. 190
    RAE Technical Note No. Aero 1387         Flight Report Fw 190/528 High Altitude Fighter
    Flugbericht Fw 190/528 Höhenjäger    

 

 

 

Supplemental

 

Bespr.Nr. 176 v. 12.10.1942 notes:

Approval of the BMW 801 D at full power. Based on experience to date in its present form, the approval of the BMW 801 D at full power without “Blenden” can be answered for under the following stated conditions:

There is uncertainty as to the best translation of Blenden in an engine context. Presumably it is an orifice, screen or restricted opening/fitting on the BMW 801 D engine. Another possibility is that Blenden were installed inside the cowling to change the cooling airflow, which might explain the difference between field-modified and new-production aircraft.Chrome-plated valves, Bosch spark plugs, fixed spark plug sockets preferably latest rolled version, nitrated blades in supercharger, strengthened starter shafts. Subject to a reexamination of the empirical data the following procedure is agreed upon.

For deployed engines: Clearance of the non-derated power, “Blenden” remain fitted, examination of the engine for fixed spark plug sockets, equipped with chromed valves, Bosch spark plugs, inspection of the injection timing points.

An instruction is to be published making sure that only chrome plated valves are installed with cylinder change.

For new deliveries and during complete overhaul and repair: clearance of the non-derated power, no “Blenden”, fixed spark plug sockets examined, chrome plated valves, Bosch spark plugs, nitrated supercharger blades, strengthened starter shafts.

 

I don't know what the indecipherable bottom portion of this post was supposed to be.. but it made no sense whatsoever so it has been edited out of the thread.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Bearcat

[RAY-EU]

The maximun power , the grey and the black grafica has nitrated supercharged blades . The Nitrate , was apply later 1943.

Nitrate to increase power and speed during about 5 minutes more or less , I read about complex Nitrate apply but during this period of time 5 minutes or more you could not reduce speed or cut the extra-power . If hp of fw 190 A3 was 1750 hp with Nitrate bost for about 5 minutes could reach more than 2000 HP and was sucssesfull apply in Fw190 ; before was apply in bf 109 G but at the begining it does not go as well the extra power Nitro .

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

If you feel like you want to contribute to sth pls put at least some effort into it and write a reasonable and structured post. Copy-Pasting-Spamming helps nobody.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka