PHEW!!! lucky escape

[DD_bongodriver]

Just heard about this, could have been a tragedy but thankfully nobody killed........potentially not even a scratch, incredible video.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td1UYjRQKjs

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Amazing, especially considering the crash in Europe recently when all eleven skydivers on board were killed!

[Cybermat47]

Damn lucky people.

 

I wonder if they'll go skydiving again?

[JtD]

Guardian Angels working overtime.

[DD_bongodriver]

Damn lucky people.

 

I wonder if they'll go skydiving again?

 

 

My brother was a skydiver and being the only one injured in a DC-3 crash at Perris Valley never put him off, neither did about 7 main canopy failures.

[JaMz]

Dam..Very lucky bods

[Sternjaeger]

truly glad they all got out ok, but it kinda begs the question wtf were the pilots thinking?! You're about to drop skydivers, you know your aircraft will lose a lot of weight all of a sudden, is it really a good idea to fly that close to each other?! 

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

No problem flying close but they should have been in proper formation where they could see each other.

[Feathered_IV]

Just saw this. Yikes, very lucky escape.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Oh my!

[Sternjaeger]

No problem flying close but they should have been in proper formation where they could see each other.

 

yeah that's what I meant, that's no way of flying close, especially when you're about to get a substantial loss of weight in the aircraft.

[DD_bongodriver]

Although it really looks like the collision happened before either aircraft started dropping and it was the higher aircraft that looks like it descended onto the lower one.

[Dakpilot]

Seem to be a lot of incidents/accidents involving skydiving aircraft, not to say all skydiving pilots are unprofessional, but it does seem to happen rather too often!

 

Glad everyone got out ok!!

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[Sternjaeger]

I've flown several skydiving sorties and I now stopped, because I realised it's not healthy at all. 

 

There are two kinds of skydiving pilots, those who say "my plane my rules" and take no crap from the jumpers, and those who indulge skydivers in doing stupid stunts (I mean, you're jumping off a plane, how many ways can you think of doing it before it gets boring?).

 

This pretty much was the last briefing where I flew co-pilot:

 

Jumpmaster: "Right, we would like to do a funky video, so we need to climb on the wheel on..."

Pilot: "No."

Jumpmaster: "But the other pilot last week made us j..."

Pilot: "No."

Jumpmaster: "Oh come on! It's safe! We're all professiona..."

Pilot "NO! I don't care if you're Chuck Norris, you jump out of the plane the way you're supposed to"

Jumpaster: "And what would that be?!"

Pilot: "One at a time, two together if it's a bound jump. No gimmicks, hanging from struts, climbing fuselages or wings"

Jumpmaster: "mpffffh... fine..."

 

We go up, jumpmaster lets the first three chaps jump as we told him, then him and the last two start climbing on the wheel strut. PIlot sees them, rocks the plane sideways and they tumble out. He looks at me and says "You see? My plane, my rules". Legend.

 

Needless to say the debriefing was hilarious (at least for us!).

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

Debriefing wouldn't have been so funny if the skydiver got injured when the pilot was shaking him off the aircraft, I think it's fine to do the climbing out stuff as long as everyone is pre-briefed and in agreement 'before' the aircraft gets off the ground.

[Sternjaeger]

if he hurt himself it would have been because he didn't follow procedure, which is in place so mishaps like hitting turbulence or pilot error wouldn't cause unintentional harm. 

 

I personally never understood what prompts a man to jump off a perfectly functional aircraft, but I guess it's because I'm a boring chap ;-)

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

Not really, if he got injured it would have been because the pilot showed complete disregard for his wellbeing because he had some ego issues, the pilot should have had a 'debrief' with the jumpmaster after the flight.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Bongo would skydiving planes be allowed to fly that close to each other in the UK?

[DD_bongodriver]

Yes, it's not really a problem if the pilots have briefed each other and plan to make it a properly organised formation, the only reason the incident happened is because they didn't see each other.

[Dakpilot]

Only one reason for the incident

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCgTqEzLzV8

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

[DD_bongodriver]

hard to say which one was really at fault but either way they should have been in sight of each other and it baffles me that they didn't make sure of that just from a common sense perspective, both pilots will be having a debrief from authorities and the fact nobody died might mean a simple slap on the wrist.

[Dakpilot]

Endangering multiple lives, burning aircraft falling from the skies?

 

I would expect much more than a "slap on the wrists" for disobeying ANR's resulting in a near fatal accident, am sure the insurance companies will have a little to say anyway   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sternjaeger]

Not really, if he got injured it would have been because the pilot showed complete disregard for his wellbeing because he had some ego issues, the pilot should have had a 'debrief' with the jumpmaster after the flight.

 

oh come on mate, if he got injured he would have had no way of proving why it happened, the only fact is that if he had followed the pilot's instructions he wouldn't have put himself in a potentially dangerous situation. A wing waggle can be caused by different things, it's not necessarily intentional. 

 

As per the pilots' conduct, they're both responsible and guilty, and to be honest I've witnessed myself a couple of nearmisses between aircrafts or aicraft and divers. Some skydiving pilots are particularly reckless, and love to "play" with skydivers (the famous Pilatus dive is a typical example. A totally unnecessary manoeuvre that cost more than one life).

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

oh come on mate, if he got injured he would have had no way of proving why it happened, the only fact is that if he had followed the pilot instructions he wouldn't have. A wing waggle can be caused by different things, it's not necessarily intentional. 

 

As per the pilots' conduct, they're both responsible and guilty, and to be honest I've witnessed myself a couple of nearmisses between aircrafts or aicraft and divers. Some skydiving pilots are particularly reckless, and love to "play" with skydivers (the famous Pilatus dive is a typical example. A totally unnecessary manoeuvre that cost more than one life).

 

Well in this case you clearly stated it 'was' intentional, and doing that just because of an ego problem and saying stuff like 'my aircraft my rules' is really alarming.

[Rama]

Interesting video (especially since nobody was injured).

Looking at it, it seems to me that the pilot of the second plane had a visual on the first (in his 1, slightly below) before the jumpers positionning on the right wheel - that the extra drag generated by the jumpers outside the plane wasn't (or could not be) compensate with the ruder, and thus induced a derive to the right, creating a collision trajetory - that the pilot tried to avoid the collision by pulling and climbing (and thus loosing visual on the other plane) - that the plane speed wasn't enough for this manoeuver (low speed adapted to jumper exiting the plane).

It would have been safer for the planes if the formation was right echelon instead of left (better visual for the pilot, no problem with the extra-drag, and more standard manoeuver to avoid collision)... but it would have been much more dangerous for the jumpers of the first plane.

I understand better why the paradroper pilot qualification is difficult to obtain (at least in France).

[DD_bongodriver]

Endangering multiple lives, burning aircraft falling from the skies?

 

I would expect much more than a "slap on the wrists" for disobeying ANR's resulting in a near fatal accident, am sure the insurance companies will have a little to say anyway   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

There is nothing illegal about formation flying, they just didn't do a good job of it and luck ran out.

[Dakpilot]

Formation flying is not illegal, but i think there are parameters that you are supposed to do it in, and these were certainly broken.

 

Phrases like their "luck ran out" seem strange coming from a flying instructor...

 

Anyway I dont want to get into an argument over this, but if the burning/falling aircraft had fallen into a school yard i think people would have a different view of "unlucky" pilot/s

 

Anyway it was just good no-one was hurt

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[DD_bongodriver]

The only legal requirement for formation flying is that the pilots have pre-briefed they will do it.

 

Why does it matter that I'm a flying instructor? their luck did run out, any other day they might have done the same detail and not collided.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Sternjaeger]

There is nothing illegal about formation flying, they just didn't do a good job of it and luck ran out.

 

actually in the US you need a sort of qualification to do formation flying. 

 

Well in this case you clearly stated it 'was' intentional, and doing that just because of an ego problem and saying stuff like 'my aircraft my rules' is really alarming.

 

let's not blow things out of proportion mate, you're being a tad dramatic..

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

Not blowing anything out of proportion, I just have images of an egotist shaking parachutists off his plane shouting 'my aircraft my rules', clearly the wellbeing of the parachutists were bottom of his priority list.

 

In Europe....the UK at least there is no formation flying rating, but it is advised to have some formal training.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Dakpilot]

No biggy just as an instructor I would not have thought you would condone maneuvers that rely on luck. perhaps it is just your wording.

 

 dont know aviation law, especially in the U.S. but I would imagine flying in formation with parachutist hanging off struts wheels could be considered flying outside of aircraft known performance limits

 

Anyway when you fly like a cowboy accidents happen

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sternjaeger]

Not blowing anything out of proportion, I just have images of an egotist shaking parachutists off his plane shouting 'my aircraft my rules', clearly the wellbeing of the parachutists were bottom of his priority list.

 

In Europe....the UK at least there is no formation flying rating, but it is advised to have some formal training.

 

as a commercial pilot yourself you should know it's not about being egotist, but about ensuring that since you're the Captain, people abide by your rules. It might have been a dirty trick, but it's no worse than an airline pilot tapping the brakes as he's slowly taxiing towards the apron to remind the odd dick passengers why they need to sit until the sign is off... 

[DD_bongodriver]

but I would imagine flying in formation with parachutist hanging off struts wheels could be considered flying outside of aircraft known performance limits

 

 

Parachute dropping is classed as aerial work, it does not get regulated as heavily as public transport and often these aircraft are stripped out with doors off etc. basically specifically modified for the task, some jump planes even have hand rails installed for exactly that reason, if the jump pilot is experienced he will know how to handle the aerodynamic changes and compensate.

 

No biggy just as an instructor I would not have thought you would condone maneuvers that rely on luck. perhaps it is just your wording.

 

 

Almost certainly a wording issue, I never condoned relying on luck, just said luck ran out.

as a commercial pilot yourself you should know it's not about being egotist, but about ensuring that since you're the Captain, people abide by your rules. It might have been a dirty trick, but it's no worse than an airline pilot tapping the brakes as he's slowly taxiing towards the apron to remind the odd dick passengers why they need to sit until the sign is off... 

 

But your example had egotist written all over it, you can be in command of the situation without being a dick yourself, the penalty for passengers not listening should only be suffered in a real emergency, not because the pilot got annoyed.

[Dakpilot]

Ok BD  

 

Then I would say their/his skill ran out 

 

Very poor airmanship, from your tone it almost seemed you were defending the incident from the pilots point of view, someone ucked up bigtime and should suffer the consequences of what could have been a serious loss of life.

 

glad i had mis-interpreted that 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dakpilot

[Sternjaeger]

I think they're all equally culpable, the pilots have the ultimate responsibility, but I'm sure that jump was briefed on the ground to happen like that (well not exactly like that, but you know what I mean..).

[DD_bongodriver]

Ok 

 

Then I would say their/his skill ran out 

 

Very poor airmanship, from your tone it almost seemed you were defending the incident from the pilots point of view, someone ucked up bigtime and should suffer the consequences of what could have been a serious loss of life.

 

glad i had mis-interpreted that 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Don't worry, when civil pilots *uck up bad enough they die too, when pilots screw up pilots die, when engineers screw up pilots die, when ATC screws up pilots die.

 

It's not a question of their skill, the guy that landed the one aircraft seems fairly skilled to me, but you are right in saying bad airmanship crept in, loss of visual like that is bad for SA and in turn a compromise to safety, if you think every professional in aviation is infallible then I have news for you, everyone makes mistakes.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[Sternjaeger]

But your example had egotist written all over it, you can be in command of the situation without being a dick yourself, the penalty for passengers not listening should only be suffered in a real emergency, not because the pilot got annoyed.

 

I think you're taking it out of context.. I'm sure you've been exasperated by passengers yourself and done something slightly unorthodox to fix it. These guys had been behaving like dicks for the whole weekend, and after the third jump, my friend simply had enough of agreeing one thing on the ground and seeing them just taking the mick.. 

He'd probably tell you you're not a good pilot because you don't reiterate your command and control of the situation, and yes, he's blunt, but as an ex-CAF, ex-Air Canada pilot with thousands of hours of jet, airliner, bush plane and warbird flying under his belt, I take his words for good.. I probably wouldn't have done it myself and gave a bit of a bollocking to the guy once on the ground, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

 

The debriefing was quite colorful: the jumpmaster didn't even wait for the prop to stop and he was yelling at his door, he came out cool as a can of coke and said "what's the problem?" - "what the hell was that?!" - "what?" - "that jolt that made us fall!" - "oh that! Well if you listened to me and respected the safety rules that we agreed on the ground, it wouldn't have happened.". 

 

There wasn't much of a reply after that, by then the owner of the skydiving club had arrived on the tarmac and asked for clarifications. After that episode the jumpmaster was not welcomed to the club anymore, and after his leave he was involved in three separate accidents, one of which almost caused the death of a person, and they were all caused by "exotic" jump methods.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[ST_ami7b5]

[DD_bongodriver]

I think you're taking it out of context.. I'm sure you've been exasperated by passengers yourself and done something slightly unorthodox to fix it. These guys had been behaving like dicks for the whole weekend, and after the third jump, my friend simply had enough of agreeing one thing on the ground and seeing them just taking the mick.. 

He'd probably tell you you're not a good pilot because you don't reiterate your command and control of the situation, and yes, he's blunt, but as an ex-CAF, ex-Air Canada pilot with thousands of hours of jet, airliner, bush plane and warbird flying under his belt, I take his words for good.. I probably wouldn't have done it myself and gave a bit of a bollocking to the guy once on the ground, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

 

The debriefing was quite colorful: the jumpmaster didn't even wait for the prop to stop and he was yelling at his door, he came out cool as a can of coke and said "what's the problem?" - "what the hell was that?!" - "what?" - "that jolt that made us fall!" - "oh that! Well if you listened to me and respected the safety rules that we agreed on the ground, it wouldn't have happened.". 

 

There wasn't much of a reply after that, by then the owner of the skydiving club had arrived on the tarmac and asked for clarifications. After that episode the jumpmaster was not welcomed to the club anymore, and after his leave he was involved in three separate accidents, one of which almost caused the death of a person, and they were all caused by "exotic" jump methods.

 

Yes, everyone gets exasperated with passengers, until they present an obvious danger to the flight then you have 0 grounds for taking any unorthodox action, clearly it is perfectly safe for skydivers to climb onto the airframe, and it sounds like your pilot just got a chip on his shoulder, I see no reason he couldn't have just refused to fly these guys, simply no excuse for taking personal issues into the sky.

 

ex-CAF, ex-Air Canada pilot with thousands of hours of jet, airliner, bush plane and warbird flying under his belt

 

 

yet guys like this still leave smoking holes in the ground now and then, they are not supermen.

[Dakpilot]

I would say a passenger/jumper refusing to accept the authority of the pilot in command, is in fact a danger to all aboard, and is the one with the ego problem...but anyway lol  

 

Cheers Dakpilot