Restoration of Bf109E-3 Legion Condor

[NachtJaeger110]

Gentlemen,

 

the Deutsches Museum in Munich needs your help. The Museum owns the oldest surviving Bf 109; factory number 790. It was built in the Erla Werke in 1939.

http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Bf109/Images/Bf109E-3_7683.jpg (this is how she looks today)

 

The Museum wants to restore the machine to the condition seen on the photograph attached.

 

Problem is, they don't have the original photo, just this scan. Since this photo comes from an article in a very old Magazine (Avión. revista de divulgacion aeronautica y astronautica, 5/1975)

they could not find the original photograph. But having it is vital for the restoration process, because there are some blurry details on the scan that cannot be identified:

1. There is a strange nose art above the exhaust pipes

2. White writing can barely be seen on the scan just under the canopy.

 

So question is, does anyone recognize these details or is in the possession of the original photograph or another photograph of the Bf 109 E-3, "6-106"?

 

I am in contact with the owner of this site, so all the Information there is known:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=bf_kennungsliste&type=lc

 

But if you could provide any further data about this particular aircraft while serving in the Condor Legion or the spanish air force (that is documents or reliable sources) the Museum would be very thankful!

 

The info that factory number 790 is 6-106 is not secure. It originates from an article in the RAF Flying Review form 1960, but there were a few mistakes in the article. The author is long gone and the spanish air force archives told the Museum that there is no other Information.

A study of the paint layers on the fuselage might give some answers, but only the fuselage without engine and cowling is from factory number 790, all other parts are from other emils. However, the Museum does not expect to find any layers of paint under the newest "Luftwaffe" schemes.

 

Thank you for any help, I'm sure it will be very much appreciated!

Edited October 21, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[XQ_Lothar29]

I'll try to help you, since I live in Barcelona and with luck, FIO or other people I know could help find information about 6 @ 106

 

 

Good news Thx

Edited October 21, 2015 by Lothar29

[NachtJaeger110]

Thank you Lothar, I hoped for someone living in spain to respond! 

there are no connections between the museum and spain, so it is really hard to spread the news there 

 

Soon there will be some sort of official announcement in several german aviation magazines and the museum webpage, but I'll post all the news directly from the restoration team here if people are interested. 

I'll be in the restoration workshop in Oberschleißheim tomorrow for the latest results of the team.

Edited October 21, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[II./JG27_Rich]

Meir Motors is also doing a Condor Legion E 1

 

http://www.meiermotors.com/index.php/projekte/messerschmitt-bf109/messerschmitt-bf109-e-1

 

http://www.meiermotors.com/index.php/projekte/messerschmitt-bf109/messerschmitt-bf109-e-1?showall=&start=1

Edited October 22, 2015 by II./JG27_Rich

[indiaciki]

great...but don't ever foget this about condor:

 

my ROF SPAD VII skin

 

 

 

 

[SOLIDKREATE]

6 -106 of 2. Staffel Jagdgruppe 88 of the Legion Condor.

 

 

I really think that is just a stain on the photo. I did run some tests on it in Photoshop. Here is what I got, maybe a cigar?

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by 6./ZG1=SPEKTRE76

[NachtJaeger110]

6 -106 of 2. Staffel Jagdgruppe 88 of the Legion Condor.

 

 

I really think that is just a stain on the photo. I did run some tests on it in Photoshop. Here is what I got, maybe a cigar?

 

 

 

6-106_MOD 1.jpg6-106_MOD 2.jpg

 

Hi Spektre, thank you for the analysis!

It is definitely not just a stain on the photo, there is another picture where 6-106 is just visible in the background and the "cigar" is also visible. see attachment.

 

@ Rich: Thank you I wasn't awar of that, I'll contact them!

 

 

 

 

 

As for the restoration...

I just spent 5 hours measuring the thickness of the paint with the team. Unfortunately everything behind the cross of the new paint is very thin. But before the cross, the paint is thick enough to justify more expensive tests. We'll see in a few weeks if anything shows on the infra red scan

Edited October 22, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[SOLIDKREATE]

There has to be someone who can identify this. Too bad Luftwaffe Experten Message Board is dead now.

 

 

Oh and the unit is actually 3.J/88.

Edited October 22, 2015 by 6./ZG1=SPEKTRE76

[NachtJaeger110]

There has to be someone who can identify this. Too bad Luftwaffe Experten Message Board is dead now.

 

 

Oh and the unit is actually 3.J/88.

 

You are correct about the unit, though many sources falsly claim that the mickey mouse belonged to 2/J88

 

The problem with the E3s of the condor legion is that they arrived very late in the war, in fact very shortly before its end. The author of thearticle who claimed that factory number 790 was 6-106 also stated that it had only 25 flying hours before it was given to the spanish air force. The pilot who decorated the machine likely never saw any action.

 

Edit: This photograph was just sent to me from a spanish Archive. It Shows the same plane in the spanish air force. the scheme was changed and the number 6-106 was moved further to the back.

It tells us where we might find some traces of the paint of the numbers.

Unfortunately they couldn't find any other info...

Edited October 23, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[SOLIDKREATE]

Well I know it is still grey and not sandgelbe. The sandgelbe birds did not have the black out paint over the exhaust. Maybe the museum can just do this one?It appears the personal insignia was painted over.

[NachtJaeger110]

Sounds good, I like the idea!

If we don't find the original photograph of the legion condor scheme, this would be the best alternative. I'll ask the curator

[NachtJaeger110]

I have a clue to what the noseart might have represented.

 

The author Ken Merrick wrote me yesterday;

 

"At some time in the distant past, I am certain that I have seen a print of that art work in close up. Regrettably, my memory is not what it was 20 or more years ago, so the source of tat print remains obscure. The art work itself appears to be a large caterpillar (or grub) with a white frill around the neck, a human face with the head capped by a close fitting shape (rather like the cap of an acorn) complete with short stem that loops backwards to a point above the white neck frill. As to the colours - that remains indeterminate other than for a tonal comparison with the stylised exhaust marking stretching back to the Mickey Mouse emblem. (Perhaps there was connection between the name of the original pilot and the ‘grub-like’ organism)."

 

He hopes that he will find the print, so do we. What do you guys think?

[SOLIDKREATE]

I THINK I SAW IT BEFORE TOO! Let me search for it. The www.luftwaffexpertenmessageboard.com is still up for a couple more months.

 

It is most likely the German "Raupe Nimmersatt"

Edited November 9, 2015 by 6./ZG1=SPEKTRE76

[SOLIDKREATE]

I think it is a Caterpillar with a white pilot scarf around it's neck. It was most likely green. It could be the Alice in Wonderland Caterpillar as well sib=nce the book was written in 1865. A Caterpillar with a human face......

[XQ_Lothar29]

Hello

 

Sorry I can not find anything, I asked acquaintances about Plane 6 or 106 but does not know much about this 109. It appears to be a plane with few photos

 

I keep looking and asking, but does not guarantee anything. seeing little information exists on this plane

 

Salud Lothar29

[NachtJaeger110]

@ Spektre

 

I was thinking of Alice, too. I just watched the 1933 film but the smoking caterpillar looks different. There is another grub or caterpillar in the back of my mind who had that white scarf or frill but I just can't remeber where I saw it... it's more like a memory from my childhood.

 

@ Lothar

 

Thank you very much for trying! We are not in a hurry here, the Museum has at least a year for gathering Information. Maybe something turns up in a few months

 

Big thanks to both of you guys, I'm sure we'll find out more!

Edited November 9, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[Cybermat47]

I zoomed in on the photo and the noseart has what might be black ears pointing up at the front, what might be a white snout at the front, and a curved bulge at the back, which could be a curled up tail. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like a pucture of a dog (perhaps a Border Collie) lying down, but with it's head up.

[NachtJaeger110]

I zoomed in on the photo and the noseart has what might be black ears pointing up at the front, what might be a white snout at the front, and a curved bulge at the back, which could be a curled up tail. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like a pucture of a dog (perhaps a Border Collie) lying down, but with it's head up.

 

Thank you for looking into it! I can see what you mean. I'll try to find 109s with dogs on them 

 

 

 

 

Today the museum received a letter from the Archivo Histórico del Ejército del Aire (AHEA). In it were copies of all the documentation they could find about our 109. Unfortunately these documents only relate to the donation of the 109 to the Deutsches Museum and its transportation to germany between 1958 and 1960. however, the documents state that the 109 was the last one in spain and that it indeed came from the Escuela de Aprendices de Logrono. This wasn't confirmed 100% before, so we have another small piece in the puzzle. This is because we have a photo of the 6-106 in Logrono here:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/display.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ausgabetabelle_spezkennung&fotonummer=2143 left corner

(Mind you, the information on the site that 6-106 is factory number 790 is not secure. Proving this is our main objective, identifying the nose art is the secondary target )

 

So one way to our goal could be finding out whether 6-106 was the last 109 in Logrono in 1958

Edited November 9, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[NachtJaeger110]

Guys, I think our primary objective is complete. The Museum is in contact with an author whose late colleague took this photo of our 109 in Seville shortly before it was sent to Germany:

 

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/display.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ergebnis_suche&fotonummer=2144

 

The colleague saw the plane on the truck when it was transported to Sevilla from Logrono and stated that it had the Registration number C.4E-106 painted on the rudder.

This is definitely the number the Condor Legion 6-106 got after 1945, when the spanish air force changed its registration system.

The muesum will get all the photos taken in Sevilla from the author soon.

 

There is also a chance that the number might still be under the newer layers of paint on the rudder since the paint there seems to be much thicker. We think that only the mid fuselage was grinded down for the newer paints.

 

I'm really excited now, I hope we'll know for sure soon

 

Meanwhile let's focus on the art work on the nose. I couldn't find any caterpillars on any other Luftwaffe planes yet..

Maybe the pilot was a member of the "caterpillar club"?

Edited November 12, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[Cybermat47]

Meanwhile let's focus on the art work on the nose. I couldn't find any caterpillars on any other Luftwaffe planes yet..

Maybe the pilot was a member of the "caterpillar club"?

Do we know the name of the pilot? There might be pictures of other aircraft he flew, which might have the same noseart.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Do we know the name of the pilot? There might be pictures of other aircraft he flew, which might have the same noseart.

Don't have any literature about it but those pilots are stated to be members of 3./J.88 at various sites: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=190327

 

3. Staffel: "Micky-Maus" (Mickey mouse), He 51and Bf 109

 

Oberleutnant Jürgen Roth (03.11.1936 - April 1937)

Oberleutnant Douglas Pitcairn (April 1937 - 26.07.1937)

Oberleutnant Adolf Galland (27.07.1937 - 24.05.1938)

Hauptmann Werner Mölders (24.05.1938 - 05.12.1938)

Oberleutnant Hubertus v. Bonin (05.12.1938 to the end)

It's not a real source but probably better than nothing I guess.

[NachtJaeger110]

Don't have any literature about it but those pilots are stated to be members of 3./J.88 at various sites: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=190327

It's not a real source but probably better than nothing I guess.

 

Our 109 arrived in spain along with 44 other emils between december 1938 and february 1939, so we're looking for pilots who were there until the end.

The photo with the nose art was likely taken at the end of the civil war when all the Condor Legion planes were handed over to the spanish air force in april 1939.

 

3./J88 was a ground attack unit until it received 109s late in the war, so I looked at all photos of 3.J88 aircraft types I could find. Nothing.. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[Ace_Pilto]

 

Maybe the pilot was a member of the "caterpillar club"?

 

Not unless he was in the R.A.F.

[NachtJaeger110]

Not unless he was in the R.A.F.

Oh my bad, I only looked it up on wiki and I assumed it was an international club

[NachtJaeger110]

Mr. Merrick sent this sketch of the nose art to the Museum. He made it from his Memory, but I think it fits reasonably well.

Edited November 16, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[Cybermat47]

Mr. Merrick sent this sketch of the nose art to the Museum. He made it from his Memory, but I think it fits reasonably well.

Comparing it with the photos, I have to agree.

[AussieBoomer]

Something like this ???????

 

[/url]">http://

 

https://www.mediafire.com/?ogyxfm8excovrc9

[Cybermat47]

Something like this ???????

 

That was quick

 

Good work

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Something like this ???????

That looks quite well to be honest. I don't think the body of the caterpillar was black. If you look closely in the picture the black exhaust pattern is darker than the caterpillar body abover it.

 

If I were to guess I'd say it's either dark green or brown (fits better as a colour for a caterpillar).

[216th_Peterla]

That is a really nice and interesting history. It is sad that a lot of pictures and information has been lost. I remember a history that my grandfather told me about the war. The patrol he was commanding pic up a german pilot that crash land close to the lines and bring it to the town. He told me that at first the german was little scared but he later recognise that they were Franco troops(Guardia Civil). Looks like he was terribly hungry and eat a bunch of fried eggs and potatoes. I never find pictures but I know that someone on the regiment take them. I'm pretty sure that there is still a lot of information out there on private collections that we'll be so helpful.

Regards.

[NachtJaeger110]

Something like this ???????

 

[/url]">http://

 

https://www.mediafire.com/?ogyxfm8excovrc9

 

Wow!!!! Thank you so much for making this!!! Seeing her in colour is just awesome for me... Really really great!

 

It is really beautiful already and I absolutely love it, so don't get me wrong when I make a few wishes 

 

- tip of the spinner on the photo has some sort of darker colour. Maybe red?

- The wingtips are white like on the model in the link below. You can just barely see it on the photo of 6-106, too.

- Downside of the plane should be RLM 65 light blue including the oil cooler (Or is it already in your skin? maybe the colour Looks different on the screenshot)

- Black painted area around the exhaust is a little wider around the exhaust, Stretches in a straight line toward the tail and covers some area on the wing, too

- Both Mickey and the caterpillar could be a Little bigger.

 

this is a great reference, it fits all my literature exactly:

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/axis/luft/me/109/48e1.htm

 

Thank you again, I already sent it to the team! 

... and I can't wait flying her when I get home this evening

Edited November 18, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[AussieBoomer]

Thanks for the tips Jaeger.

 

Sorry but that one was a quick slap together just for an idea.

 

Will implement the changes and resubmit as soon as I can.

 

Boomer.

[AussieBoomer]

Condor with requested changes;

 

[/url]">http://

 

[/url]">http://  [/url]">http://

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/vlqi6v57wr9v9t6/Condor.rar

[NachtJaeger110]

Yeahhh that's it Boomer!!!

 

Great work!

Edited November 18, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

To add sth to Boomers fantastic skin-preview I attempted a recolourization of the original image (note I'm not a WWII photo recolouring expert and have never done this before, this is no professionals work! Colours might be off!)

 

First the untouched nose section from the original photograph showing the emblem:

 

Now the same picture but with the outlined emblem (as accurate as possible to the photograph as well as according to the sketch)

 

Now the same picture but with the coloured emblem

 

Last a full colourized version of the original photograph. Recolouring was done in a way to show as much of the original contrast as possible.

 

*Note: Due to the bad state of the original photograph I took the artistic freedom to give the emblem and "eye" as well as a shallow outline to seperate it more easily from the rest of the aircraft. Othewise the difference in contrast and colours would be too little to tell the exact outline of the emblem.

 

**Note: I tried to colour the caterpillar's body green to compare it to brown with the same technique The result was avery ackward green tone, so my bet goes for brown. Still it might be some completely different colour after all until we get further evidence.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Sry there were some erros in the previous picture. Here's the fixed version:

[NachtJaeger110]

Hi Stuka,

 

thank you for the great work! For someone who has never done this before it looks very profesional!

I think colour and shape of the caterpillar look very convincing.

Another question besides the nose art is the writing that might be under the canopy. Or is it just an illusion from the bad quality scan?

 

To the left of Mickey's head I think I see something like "KST?V" in capital letters. What do you think?

[AussieBoomer]

Final edition with info we have so far.

 

If it does turn out to have writing under the canopy, let me know and I will add it in.

 

[/url]">http://

 

https://www.mediafire.com/?fbb9zf6vcv7cmdg

[NachtJaeger110]

Even better! The spinner is perfect now! You should post it in the skins section 

 

One more wish: Our little caterpillar friend would look even better if he had a light structure on the body. Something like this maybe, if it isn't too hard to do:

http://bugguide.net/images/raw/7KO/KIK/7KOKIKVKGKBK4KAKUQ30BQCKSKO0PQ9K0K6KSKB0UQ1KVQO0PQC0PQWK8KF0BQZSMKF0NQBK9QVKUQ.jpg

it does't have to be that pronounced, maybe only the bigger sections of the body

 

Thank you Boomber, it's really awesome!

Edited November 19, 2015 by NachtJaeger110

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Thx, I was really cautioned to not make it too artistic and less original.

To the left of Mickey's head I think I see something like "KST?V" in capital letters. What do you think?

I really wish I could tell but it's too difficult to distinguish. When viewing the image zoomed out it does have suspectible shades below the cockpit but when zooming in it's not clear enough to tell if it's letters, paint reflections or simply artifacts made by the camera.