Yakcopter or Automatic flaps? + Video

[Sokol1]

I guess Mr. Jefferies will say that, as he don't use Yak in "dogfight's", drop flaps only for landing. 

[MK_RED13]

I guess Mr. Jefferies will say that using flaps in climb is ridiculous and that it leads to a dangerous loss of speed

[Brano]

Another thread dragged down to the level of silly comments by usual suspects...palmface smiley is missing here...

[JtD]

Brano, before you give up on this thread - in your opinion, if the flaps control lever is in the down position, can air move into the cylinder and back out when compressed or just in? In other words, would pushing the flaps back in cause marginal pressure increase in the (more or less) entire pneumatic system or would it cause a significant pressure increase in the cylinder and the small line towards the control valve? Is there a non-return valve or not?

[Brano]

When lever is in drop down position it will open the circuit to let compressed air to push actuator move forward.And to let the air in from oposite direction,when you push the lever into retract position.

 

In situation,that there are external forces applied against this move = airstream pushing on flaps,it will create temporary overpressure in the pneumatic circuit.Valve is set to 32 atm.So if this value is overreached,valve will limit or completly cut out compressed air from pressure tank.To keep constant pressure of 32 atm.There is also backvalve behind compressor,which is standard part for pressurized systems.Compressor has pressure output of 50atm.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Brano

[Sokol1]

Your last paragraph just repeat the first part of the second... 

 

The question remains unclear for non-technical "vir'pilots":

 

This mean if the airstream pressure (against plane move) is over 32ATM the flaps will retract - partially? (in OP video flaps are visible down) - and don't cause noticeable drag?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Sokol1

[Brano]

Sorry for that double text.I was posting from my cell phone,its a mess   I allready deleted text which was doubled.

Yes,flaps will retract partialy,how much depends on the speed.Faster you fly,the more pressure is there,more pressure means retracting,which at the same time means lowering of angle of the flaps which results in less drag.They will never retract completly.They will stay in lets call it balanced position.

I did not write that they will not cause the drag.Ofcourse they will.If you read thru post made by coconut,you will see the difference in climb with and without flaps which is around 600m of altitude difference.And as you climb from level speed of 500km up,you are losing speed and flaps are slowly deploying.So it is not like a handbrake that will immediately stop you and you smash your head against instrument panel 

[Gump]

flaps MAY not assist in FASTEST climb rate, given a comparison to a full airspeed climb, but they sure as heck DO assist in lift/climb at lower airspeeds. it is obvious that they induce drag but, at low speeds, getting or staying airborn is more of a concern....

...

flaps ARE used on takeoff sometimes- ESPECIALLY with heavy loadouts or short runways. why? are the pilots worried about drag? no! they are desiring/requiring the extra lift. flaps dont just add drag or change the AoA, they modify the wing shape. a highly undercambered wing may be slow, but it has high lift. check out some of those WWII carrier TAKEOFFS and notice the flaps down. i was just watching the american p-47's TO from carriers last night with fully extended flaps. what is the reasoning behind this? there can only be one. lift.

.

how does one accomplish the lowest turning RADIUS (not turn rate)? speed is a factor, yes? slower=tighter turn. flaps enable slower airspeed.

[SYN_Vorlander]

Maybe when the dev's release the MIG they will fix the Yak?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

It's all a matter of hitting the sweetspot. Too low speed isn't good either. Also lowest speed does not gurantee lowest turn time even with flaps (which also is very irrelevant in air combat when the enemy can turn faster at way higher airspeed).

 

Pilots indeed use flaps at TO but do they pull insane AoA or turn with sby to get on his six? No. And usually, once above the ground, flaps are retracted quickly to allow for maximum acceleration and manouvrebility.

 

If they really helped in climb they'd be used that way. Flaps primary intend is to allow for slower, thus steeper landing approaches. That was (is) one major benefit when operating from short fieldstrips like the ones from WW2.

 

Drag (I don't knwo why this is the only thing people bring up in regards to flaps) is only one characteristic of flaps. Theres way more about them that can be faulty than just drag, not to menion drag isn't constant but changes with AoA and airspeed.

 

@Brano Question is wheter the valve can compensate for the pressure overload instantly or only delayed. Those parts are also effected by acceleration forces that might have impact on the valve itself when the aircraft is under heavy loads.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Fern]

Haha. Mark Jefferies is the man! Quick response. Anyways:

 

 

Subject: Yak 1 Flaps - YAK UK Ltd Contact form

 

Hi.

 

Suggest the software writer gets it right then! Split flaps reduce stall speed and increase drag. http://www.yakuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/YAK11-LGA4.jpg

 

Flap limit speed approx. 135 kts from memory.

 

 

 

Best regards Mark Jefferies

http://www.yakuk.com and http://www.extraaircraft.co.uk/

Conditions of business

You should follow me on Twitter here      

 

From:
Subject: Yak 1 Flaps
Telephone:

Message Body:

 

We are having a discussion on the forums of a video game, IL2 Battle of Stalingrad, about the Flight Mechanics of the Yak-1. Apparently, people believe the Yak-1 flaps can be used for combat fighting other than landing or takeoff.

 

The problem with the game is that the Yak-1 with flaps down make it turn tighter, climb faster, and dont rip off on dives.

 

I was just wondering if you could set the forums straight with your expertise in flying the Yak. It would be greatly appreciated so we all that play this great game, can have the most accurate experience next to flying.

Thank you

 

PS: A link to the forum

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/18713-yakcopter-or-automatic-flaps-video/

[DD_Arthur]

 "Split flaps reduce stall speed and increase drag"

 

  Lol.  Thats it?  

[Blakhart]

 

Suggest the software writer gets it right then! Split flaps reduce stall speed and increase drag. http://www.yakuk.com.../YAK11-LGA4.jpg

 

Flap limit speed approx. 135 kts from memory.

 

 

This is it.

135 kts. 

Its 250 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a 500 km/h tight 5-6 G turn.

When you fly a plane you need to keep limits.

Every real pilot knows that.

Its poorly simulated in the game

Amen.

 

About the topic:

 

#Silky

I suggest you you to learn to fly&fight and understand the logic of dogfight, manouvers before you will post something like that.

On a movie I can see only your mistakes.

High AoA, bad timing, too fast reactions...

Before you change your status from rookie to medium you will see more and more "magical (in your opinion) tricks" like this.

Find a good team with experienced instructors.

This is the best friendly tip which I can give you . 

 

#Brano

No matter what you think, say or write here I can assure you that if you only would have chance to speak with some ex-yak 1 pilots you would hear such story from them:

 

"Flaps in dogfight ? No I`v never used them in combat, but I heard that some of the pilots were using that trick from time to time but never on high speed turns above 300 km/h. 

Why ?

Because only a idiot would risk a flaps failure during the combat and the flaps are only just an another mechanism so they can fail at high speed and high G"

 

The flaps issue is downgraiding the combat in il2 series from the art to arcade, since the origins of project.

It was well done in CloD when you had simulated situtation like "you have only 2 hands" and you just CAN`T do 3 actions at the same time !!! ( i dont remember what was the name of that option... )

 

Here in BoS when every button can be mapped on HOTAS you can change throttle by 1 finger, prop pitch by another one, close the radiator by thumb, control the plane with right hand, aim, shoot and open flaps.

 

All those actions at the same time...

This is just un normal, un realistic...

When you are in high G manouvers you can barely control the plane sometimes. *

After few high G turns you just have to make short break for a longer breathe.*

Here you just put your flaps ON and turns like crazy without any serious limits...

 

We have sim mode with arcade combat style.

Can`t you see that ?

 

Plus Yak FM, durability and and flaps usage compare to LW planes is a big soviet propaganda bullsh1t.

 

Plus

Another arcade [Edited]

You can open the cockpits during the flight and put your completly head outside even in 500-600 km/h flight :D

Same in FW, La5 and Yak...

 

*I didnt read a book`s about it. I just tested it on myself.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Bearcat

[Maxyman]

This is it.

135 kts. 

Its 250 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what the flight manual states: retract flaps at a speed not less than 250km/h. It's not an eye opener.

 

Those chasing the realistic flight should start with Bf109 stabilizer.

[SR-F_Winger]

And you dont freeze your head off in seconds. Thats the biggest awesomeness.

Agree it also can be done in FW. Wich is just as stupid IMHO. But as long as there are exploits like the current flapbehavior and the "sickoutyourheadanddontfreeze" in place and available i WILL be using them since practically everyone uses them and not using them gives yourself and unfair disadvantage.

Just fixing such issues for BOTH sides would restore balance while raising the "simfactor" of this GAME.

[Brano]

OK,now I am done with this thread.Happy witchhunting

[Maxyman]

Plus Yak FM, durability and and flaps usage compare to LW planes is a big soviet propaganda bullsh1t.

 

Do you know Kwiatek by any chance?

[Blakhart]

Do you know Kwiatek by any chance?

 

And do you have any online experience ?

[Maxyman]

And do you have any online experience ?

Affirmative. What's the story with the propaganda stuff? Teach me what is not propaganda.

[mb339pan]

until it will be implemented into systems that do not allow the pilot to perform certain actions in maneuvers at high G how to operate the flapsor act on the trim on the flight sim there will always be these integrated cheat

[Sokol1]

Well, are that il-2'46 "scripted" solution: open flaps, drop LG... above XXX speed they lock in position and cause drag. 

[Blakhart]

Affirmative. What's the story with the propaganda stuff? Teach me what is not propaganda.

 

Rgr t, lets meet then at DED Manni duel server and check your skills so I will start to take your words seriously or you start to take mine.

What I`v learned so far is that on this forum and western community you can find plenty of good speakers and few good players.

 

Whats your time zone?

I`m +2 GMT.

I can play today even.

[Maxyman]

Rgr t, lets meet then at DED Manni duel server and check your skills so I will start to take your words seriously or you start to take mine.

What I`v learned so far is that on this forum and western community you can find plenty of good speakers and few good players.

Whats your time zone?

I`m +2 GMT.

I can play today even.

My skills are below average but accepted.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Gentlemen's duel, it remind me stories of my grandpa and his duels.

[Fern]

More

 

So if you exceed 135 kts, do the flaps go back to stowed position or could they rip off?

 

There would be a factor of safety in the design before damage would occur.

 

Stall is 73 kts flaps down and about 80 no flaps on the y11.

 

Best regards Mark

[Blakhart]

My skills are below average but accepted.

So why you take vital part in serious discussion ?

Why you reminded Kwiatek in the topic ? Because what ?

Because he is right and some of you just cant stand it ?

[Dakpilot]

So why you take vital part in serious discussion ?

Why you reminded Kwiatek in the topic ? Because what ?

Because he is right and some of you just cant stand it ?

 

Sorry but pilot skills when discussing technical points or FM is totally irrelevant.

 

I am certain that there are aerodynamic engineers who know far more, who do not even have a pilots licence..

 

Your comments hurt your credibility....

 

Also Kwaitec's constant referrals to Pilots operating handbook limits V's real life figures when considering dive limits show a big misunderstanding

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 22, 2015 by Dakpilot

[Sokol1]

 

 

Well, are that il-2'46 "scripted" solution: open flaps, drop LG... above XXX speed they lock in position and cause drag.  

 

The (BoS) Yak-1 the flaps "rod" lock at ~650KMH... just before other things became fall apart. 

[Blakhart]

 

 

Sorry but pilot skills when discussing technical points or FM is totally irrelevant.

:D HAhaha :D 

 

Yeah, you see it is, because when you dont have experience you should only listen when smarter than you discuss

 

I finished aviation-engineer studies, so you still want to explain me that I`m wrong ?

I`m not the "PPL 20hrs guy"

 

My comments are just honest and the truth hurts.

 

Cheers!

[StG2_Manfred]

Sorry but pilot skills when discussing technical points or FM is totally irrelevant.

 

Correct

 

I am certain that there are aerodynamic engineers who know far more, who do not even have a pilots licence..

 

Probably, but there also are test pilots for some reason when a new plane is developed and ready for its first flight

 

Your comments hurt your credibility....

 

That's your opinion. No, not for me

 

Also Kwaitec's constant referrals to Pilots operating handbook limits V's real life figures when considering dive limits show a big misunderstanding

 

That's again your opinion. Also not for me

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Cheers Manfred

[Dakpilot]

:D HAhaha :D 

 

Yeah, you see it is, because when you dont have experience you should only listen when smarter than you discuss

 

I finished aviation-engineer studies, so you still want to explain me that I`m wrong ?

I`m not the "PPL 20hrs guy"

 

My comments are just honest and the truth hurts.

 

Cheers!

 

Thank you for turning my comment about online sim pilot skills and that knowledge relating to technical understanding into

 

"I am smarter than you because ..."

 

Guess it must be a language problem

 

No worries

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sokol1]

Gentlemen's duel, it remind me stories of my grandpa and his duels.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Sokol1

[Blakhart]

Thank you for turning my comment about online sim pilot skills and that knowledge relating to technical understanding into

 

"I am smarter than you because ..."

 

Guess it must be a language problem

 

No worries

 

Cheers Dakpilot

No, no, no its not like that...

You see... A Rookie virt pilot wont notice anything un normal because everything will be a magical for him!

This is the point

Only when you have some experience and knowledge about the aviation and aerodynamics you can understand the issue/problem.

[Dakpilot]

No, no, no its not like that...

You see... A Rookie virt pilot wont notice anything un normal because everything will be a magical for him!

This is the point

Only when you have some experience and knowledge about the aviation and aerodynamics you can understand the issue/problem.

 

Agreed, my point being that simply online virt pilot experience is not only relevant without some technical understanding of systems and aerodynamics

 

Although I have never flown any of the actual aircraft types in BoS/BoM I do have experience from a long pilot career in aviation, a part of it flying and working on WWII A/C

 

I think it can be generally said that all everyone (most) wants is historical accuracy to an acceptable limit

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[coconut]

Here are two missions that will help assess turn performance at 1000m for the yak and the f4.

 

Fly North until you see land fires hanging in the air at 1000m on your left. The fires are arranged in a flat cross pattern.

 

Initially only the center fire is burning.

 

After that, whenever you fly over one branch of the cross, the fire at the same distance from the center is lit on the next cross, and the fires immediately on its right and its left too. In other words, too keep the same turn radius, aim for the center fire. To tighten, aim for the one on the left. This should help you keep turning around the center.

 

The system is designed for turns to the left. It won't work for turns to the right, but of course you can still turn to the right and use the center fire to stay centered (try to keep it at a constant angle between your 2 and 3 o'clock).

 

Record your performance (Ctrl-R by default) doing turns, then look at the record placing yourself over the cross using the free camera (f11 by default).

 

You can use your phone to time each lap.

 

I'm not very good at making clean circles yet, but I've managed 16-17s with the flaps on the yak, 19-20s without.

 

For the bf109, it was 18s with 20% flaps, and I think 21s without.

 

I'm not sure of the loadouts, and I'll do more serious tests tomorrow. In the mean time, feel free to run your own.

[Maxyman]

So why you take vital part in serious discussion ?

Why you reminded Kwiatek in the topic ? Because what ?

Because he is right and some of you just cant stand it ?

Because Kwiatek and you see Soviet propaganda everywhere. Even when referring to manufacturer's documentation.

 

Now questions for you, not a “PPL 20hrs guy”:

1. How do you interpret this sentence “Suggest the software writer gets it right then!”?

2. Have you noticed that Mark is talking about Yak-11?

[303_Kwiatek]

I think Maxyman you should read little more about soviets planes during WW2 not only Russian publications it could give you some light about these things. 

 

BTW you think that these is fortuity that near all very questionable performacne and flight model issues concern russian planes in BOS?

Edited October 23, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[Gump]

More

 

So if you exceed 135 kts, do the flaps go back to stowed position or could they rip off?

 

There would be a factor of safety in the design before damage would occur.

 

Stall is 73 kts flaps down and about 80 no flaps on the y11.

 

Best regards Mark

.

SEEMS TO BE ANSWERED BY BRANO IN THESE FOLLOWING TWO POSTS...

 

When lever is in drop down position it will open the circuit to let compressed air to push actuator move forward.And to let the air in from oposite direction,when you push the lever into retract position.

 

In situation,that there are external forces applied against this move = airstream pushing on flaps,it will create temporary overpressure in the pneumatic circuit.Valve is set to 32 atm.So if this value is overreached,valve will limit or completly cut out compressed air from pressure tank.To keep constant pressure of 32 atm.There is also backvalve behind compressor,which is standard part for pressurized systems.Compressor has pressure output of 50atm.

 

 

Sorry for that double text.I was posting from my cell phone,its a mess   I allready deleted text which was doubled.

Yes,flaps will retract partialy,how much depends on the speed.Faster you fly,the more pressure is there,more pressure means retracting,which at the same time means lowering of angle of the flaps which results in less drag.They will never retract completly.They will stay in lets call it balanced position.

I did not write that they will not cause the drag.Ofcourse they will.If you read thru post made by coconut,you will see the difference in climb with and without flaps which is around 600m of altitude difference.And as you climb from level speed of 500km up,you are losing speed and flaps are slowly deploying.So it is not like a handbrake that will immediately stop you and you smash your head against instrument panel 

[DD_Arthur]

 

BTW you think that these is fortuity that near all very questionable performacne and flight model issues concern russian planes in BOS?

 

Remind me again; which 'plane seems to have the most questionable performance?        Oh yeah; the F4.

 

Big, BIG yawn...........

[9./JG27golani79]

Remind me again; which 'plane seems to have the most questionable performance?        Oh yeah; the F4.

 

Big, BIG yawn...........

 

Which also keeps getting mentioned .. only this topic is about Yak ..