Concerns from an IL-2 Veteran

[DD_bongodriver]

Agreed, bongo you can't stop telling people not to mention ROF when its our current developer baseline, but on the same note due to this being an "il2" game some here have to expect that this game will ALWAYS be compared to COD... if it was called something else this might not have been the problem.

 

ROF being the baseline has nothing to do with it, if people are expressing concerns that they think they are getting ROF in a WWII wrapper then how is bringing ROF up going to lessen those concerns?

This thread is for the devs to read and hopefully construct a satisfactory answer during one of our regular pamperings.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

Drop it, AoA.....if you want to be taken seriously, you're not helping yourself.

[DD_bongodriver]

Calm ya passion.

 

Just stay away from me and I'll be just tickety-boo

[kendo]

Wow! This place has gone downhill in the few days since I last had a look!

 

Wanted to comment on something relating to my last post - whether COD's downfall was mainly because the devs over-reached themselves and were forced to release a buggy, incomplete game or as Bongo so charmingly put it:

 

No, what ultimately sealed COD's fate was the snivelling community that never realised quite what they were being 'given', MG had incurred the cost of developing all of these wonderfull features and got nothing in return but blatant slander and a complete lack of patience, admittedly in order to see what COD was really offering us you would have had to have the gift of being able to see beyond your nose, flight simming is a dying genre and COD was going to be the swansong, instead of something really impressive we are going to be seen out with something safe, dependable, unambitious and slighly beyond it's sell by date but repackaged to say otherwise.

 

This is my oppinion, I am entitled to share it, don't like it then just ignore it and walk away.

 

How to win friends and influence people, eh?

 

1. COD got a bad reception at release, solely due to the state it was in. For myself I had spent a couple of years impatiently waiting and expecting it to be the ultimate flight-sim. I was so certain of its impending excellence that I updated my PC - and just to make sure that I would squeeze every last ounce of enjoyment from the forthcoming masterpiece (ordered in full Collector's edition form) bought new CH Combatstick and Throttle, and Simped rudder pedals. Total cost - about ?

[Krupi]

Wow! This place has gone downhill in the few days since I last had a look!

 

Wanted to comment on something relating to my last post - whether COD's downfall was mainly because the devs over-reached themselves and were forced to release a buggy, incomplete game or as Bongo so charmingly put it:

 

 

How to win friends and influence people, eh?

 

1. COD got a bad reception at release, solely due to the state it was in. For myself I had spent a couple of years impatiently waiting and expecting it to be the ultimate flight-sim. I was so certain of its impending excellence that I updated my PC - and just to make sure that I would squeeze every last ounce of enjoyment from the forthcoming masterpiece (ordered in full Collector's edition form) bought new CH Combatstick and Throttle, and Simped rudder pedals. Total cost - about ?

[DD_bongodriver]

Pffft!! we are about to wait 1 year for nothing more than a patch to ROF to make it a WWII sim

[AndyJWest]

Pffft!! we are about to wait 1 year for nothing more than a patch to ROF to make it a WWII sim

 

If you believe that, why are you bothering to post on this forum at all?

[DD_bongodriver]

If you believe that, why are you bothering to post on this forum at all?

 

I'm expressing a concern.........how are you not getting that?

[Krupi]

I'm expressing a concern.........how are you not getting that?

 

Bongo could you tone your concern to something a bit more diplomatic!

[AndyJWest]

I'm expressing a concern.........how are you not getting that?

 

No, you aren't "expressing a concern", you are asserting something as a fact, based on... what exactly?

[4./JG53_Wotan]

You do realize that since CODs release the vast majority of there time had been spent working on the next game due to pressure from 1c, if they had been given more time to fix COD it would be a different story now.

That is because CloD lost money and the more time they spent trying to fix CloD the more money they lost - see some of Blacksix's post on the 1C forums. They did not have any real choice and had to give up on CloD. They had hoped that a new title, that actually worled decently out of the box, would earn some revenue. They soon gave up that hope and stopped all work.

Edited December 16, 2012 by 4./JG53_Wotan

[DD_bongodriver]

No, you aren't "expressing a concern", you are asserting something as a fact, based on... what exactly?

 

I can express it any way I like, much like you have chosen to take anything I say very personally....

[kendo]

reply to Krupi above

Actually a significant amount of work was on the engine both for COD and the sequel. (the modellers and map makers were transferred to working exclusively on the sequel).

 

They were given 18 months+  to 'fix COD'. They couldn't do it - at least not to anything more than a bare-bones level. By that I mean no other major features were able to be developed and introduced into the game - weather, animations, etc.

 

I go back to the 'crucial' game changing patch. If released last Christmas I'm sure we would have seen more features put out for COD. Instead it took so long to fix that they were unable to do anything more with COD and had to psotpone evything to the sequel

Edited December 16, 2012 by kendo

[Krupi]

That is because CloD lost money and the more time they spent trying to fix CloD the more money they lost - see some of Blacksix's post on the 1C forums. They did not have any real choice and had to give up on CloD. They had hoped that a new title, that actually worled decently out of the box, would earn some revenue. They soon gave up that hope and stopped all work.

 

They didn't stop all work until very recently.. around the time they were told to by 1C.

 

Actually a significant amount of work was on the engine both for COD and the sequel. (the modellers and map makers were transferred to working exclusively on the sequel).

 

They were given 18 months+  to 'fix COD'. They couldn't do it - at least not to anything more than a bare-bones level. By that I mean no other major features were able to be developed and introduced into the game - weather, animations, etc.

 

I go back to the 'crucial' game changing patch. If released last Christmas I'm sure we would have seen more features put out for COD. Instead it took so long to fix that they were unable to do anything more with COD and had to psotpone evything to the sequel

 

THE MAJORITY OF THE LAST 18 MONTHS WERE SPENT ON BOM... FACT!

[AndyJWest]

@ Bongodriver: So no facts at all...

 

 

Sadly, there seem to be a great many 'facts' in this thread - and little evidence that they are factual...

Edited December 16, 2012 by AndyJWest

[Krupi]

@ Bongodriver: So no facts at all...

 

 

Sadly, there seem to be a great many 'facts' in this thread - and little evidence that they are factual...

 

Ah you I thought you were talking about me... thanks for the clarification. 

Edited December 16, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[DD_bongodriver]

@ Bongodriver: So no facts at all...

 

 

Sadly, there seem to be a great many 'facts' in this thread - and little evidence that they are factual...

 

What are your facts to prove me wrong?

[kendo]

They didn't stop all work until very recently.. around the time they were told to by 1C.

 

 

THE MAJORITY OF THE LAST 18 MONTHS WERE SPENT ON BOM... FACT!

 

Ok, if you're going to be that pedantic then give me specific percentages?!!.

 

It's also a FACT that they had the people who could work on the engine (i.e. programmers!!!) working on the engine right up until the crucial make or break patch was released. If they could have got it out faster they would have. That they didn't had to have an impact on their future strategy.

 

And EVEN IF they chose deliberately to put all effort exclusively on the sequel (which they DIDN'T (aren't CAPS great!?) then that proved to be a pretty spectacularly bad strategy as well - DIDN'T IT?!

[DD_bongodriver]

Bongo could you tone your concern to something a bit more diplomatic!

 

Oh....sorry yeah diplomatic.....ummmm, ROF is the best thing ever, COD was an utterly shit disaster.....that sort of diplomatic?

[Krupi]

Oh....sorry yeah diplomatic.....ummmm, ROF is the best thing ever, COD was an utterly shit disaster.....that sort of diplomatic?

 

You can at least give them a chance, I know its annoying that there are lots of members here that turn a blind eye to the good sides of COD but we should ignore them and give the developers a chance. 

 

I like ROF I have basically every aircraft in the game the engine runs well, I am worried that a year or two years is a HUGE undertaking to get a ww2 game out of the digital nature engine so we should be giving them our support... the criticism should be constructive not destructive.

[[DRAW]Spartan]

Come on guys, we can all behave a little better here.

 

This thread was not started as a comparison of Rise of Flight and Il-2, and I would really appreciate it if those sort of comments were made in another thread. As was said from the beginning, both are excellent games, each with its own merits.

 

Do not get me wrong, all of us want this new project to be a success. We have our concerns, hence we have decided to make them known and invite a civil discussion. There are some very good points here. Cost is of course always a very huge concern when developing a title such as this. I would however say that by continuing to use the same engine, which has so far been described as having no noticeable upgrades when compared to what is now available in ROF, 777 is risking the final quality and future expandability of their game. A successful title cannot rely on several year old and out dated software for very long.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Gents, enough with CloD now, please?

[Jaws2002]

Ok, if you're going to be that pedantic then give me specific percentages?!!.

 

It's also a FACT that they had the people who could work on the engine (i.e. programmers!!!) working on the engine right up until the crucial make or break patch was released. If they could have got it out faster they would have. That they didn't had to have an impact on their future strategy.

 

And EVEN IF they chose deliberately to put all effort exclusively on the sequel (which they DIDN'T (aren't CAPS great!?) then that proved to be a pretty spectacularly bad strategy as well - DIDN'T IT?!

It was 1C that killed it. They wanted the new addon as fast as possible, to cash on. They forced the game out before it was ready and imediately after, forced basically everyone to work on the sequel instead of getting CLOD fixed.

    That made a lot of people agry and got a landslide of bad reviews. You can't expect the customers to be happy and willing to buy your next product if you don't fix the one you just sold.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jaws2002

[DD_bongodriver]

They will get my support in the form of my cash once it's released, obviously I'm not getting any alternate WWI title so my hands are tied, I will continue however to express my concerns, if we all sit here blowing smoke up backsides and rejoicing then what motivation will 777 have to push the boundaries just a little further to give us something special?

[APIKalimba]

What are your facts to prove me wrong?

How can anybody at this stage pretent to prove anything ? It is not an argument...You are entitelled to your opninion. Hope is all we have as a "fact" regarding the next Sturmovik release for now....

You can choose not to have hope. That is your choice. The other facts will come with Jason's updates. Some trust him, some don't .Once again , it is your choice.

If you missed it , here's somthing a bit more optimistic , and its not from me:

 

 

Originally Posted by FS~Phat 

I know this is a bit naughty cross posting but this is important.

DX11 and 64bit is on the horizon.. will it make it to BoS? Probably, but maybe not on release. We may not get DX11 and 64bit on release of the new sequel but the 777 way is to make things fun, get it out and then continually tweak it. So if they are already working on DX11 and 64bit expect that will probably make its way into ROF (or maybe another project?) before the sequel for refinement and testing.

Bottom line. Dont dis 777 just because today they are DX9, they are already looking beyond that.

 

More here on the graphics engine 

http://www.cleared-t....777-studios-2/

Extract:

"It???

[DD_bongodriver]

Gents, enough with CloD now, please?

 

Forget history and it repeats itself.....

[Jaws2002]

Gents, enough with CloD now, please?

Why? Clod is the last version of Il-2 and the next game is also called Il-2. It's normal to talk about it. What do you want to compare it with? Warbirds, or Combat Flight Sim 2?

[AndyJWest]

Gents, enough with CloD now, please?

 

+1

[DD_bongodriver]

 

How can anybody at this stage pretent to prove anything ? It is not an argument...You are entitelled to your opninion. Hope is all we have as a "fact" regarding the next Sturmovik release for now....

You can choose not to have hope. That is your choice. The other facts will come with Jason's updates. Some trust him, some don't .Once again , it is your choice.

If you missed it , here's somthing a bit more optimistic , and its not from me:

 

 

Originally Posted by FS~Phat 

I know this is a bit naughty cross posting but this is important.

DX11 and 64bit is on the horizon.. will it make it to BoS? Probably, but maybe not on release. We may not get DX11 and 64bit on release of the new sequel but the 777 way is to make things fun, get it out and then continually tweak it. So if they are already working on DX11 and 64bit expect that will probably make its way into ROF (or maybe another project?) before the sequel for refinement and testing.

Bottom line. Dont dis 777 just because today they are DX9, they are already looking beyond that.

 

More here on the graphics engine 

http://www.cleared-t....777-studios-2/

Extract:

"It???

Edited December 16, 2012 by bongodriver

[Krupi]

Why? Clod is the last version of Il-2 and the next game is also called Il-2. It's normal to talk about it. What do you want to compare it with? Warbirds, or Combat Flight Sim 2?

 

Exactly...

 

 

If you want to get rid of the references to COD then remove the il2 from the games title, thats the only way your going to stop the comparisons.

Edited December 16, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[DD_bongodriver]

If you want to get rid of the references to COD then remove the il2 from the games title, thats the only way your going to stop the comparisons.

 

While we're at it remove 1C too.......

[Krupi]

That blog from 2011 has been superceeded by the first developer diary:

 

5) Will the new graphics engine used Dx10/11?

 

No. We believe that the DX9 features more than enough. Just a good result requires more skill from programmers and artists.

 

The point that Kalimba was making is there is potential to bolt on dx11 at a later date, that point still stands... or are 777 supposed to add dx11 make a Stalingrad campaign and add ww2 aircraft and systems in just one year LOL

Edited December 16, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[AndyJWest]

If you want to get rid of the references to COD then remove the il2 from the games title, thats the only way your going to stop the comparisons.

 

Comparisons are one thing. Endless speculation about what happened, who was at fault, and what could have been differently is another - and really has little relevance to a BoS forum.

[DD_bongodriver]

The point Kalimba was making is that there is potential to bolt on dx11 at a later date, that point still stands... or are supposed to add dx11 make a Stalingrad campaign and add ww2 aircraft and systems in just one year LOL

 

Oh sure, now all of a sudden the simming communities patience is infinite, we have all the time in the world to be drip fed payware add ons.

[Krupi]

Comparisons are one thing. Endless speculation about what happened, who was at fault, and what could have been differently is another - and really has little relevance to a BoS forum.

 

But who is bringing up the speculation? Certainly i did not start it, whenever a COD feature is mentioned a few ppl here say "COD is dead" as if that means that a certain feature was the reason for CODs downfall... for this community to succeed concessions have to be made on both sides...

 

Oh sure, now all of a sudden the simming communities patience is infinite, we have all the time in the world to be drip fed payware add ons.

 

Of course not... we both agree that the moaning on cod forums did have an effect on the outcome of BOM but now being a hypocrite and moaning here.... where is the sense in that?

[APIKalimba]

That blog from 2011 has been superceeded by the first developer diary:

 

5) Will the new graphics engine used Dx10/11?

 

No. We believe that the DX9 features more than enough. Just a good result requires more skill from programmers and artists.

Of course it is. Jason knows who we are, and what our "history" is regarding expectations. Does that mean that what has been done since that "blog" was canned ?

If you were, yourself, involved in financing such a project, would you even consider releasing a game of such envergure without it beeing great, knowing who is you potential client????le ?

Who will buy BOS in 2014 ? And how good looking/working does it have to be to get you as a custommer ? 

 

Maybe I am to much on the positive side here...But it is my choice...

[AndyJWest]

But who is bringing up the speculation? Certainly i did not start it, whenever a COD feature is mentioned a few ppl here say "COD is dead" as if that means that a certain feature was the reason for CODs downfall... for this community to succeed concessions have to be made on both sides...

I think that 'for this community to succeed' we have to stop talking about 'sides', for a start. Though long term, success will depend on what 1C-777 can do, rather than on us.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Forget history and it repeats itself.....

 

It is 777 that has to remember history now, not us. Enough with the banana forum drama already!

[4./JG53_Wotan]

It was 1C that killed it. They wanted the new addon as fast as possible, to cash on. They forced the game out before it was ready and imediately after, forced basically everyone to work on the sequel instead of getting CLOD fixed.

    That made a lot of people agry and got a landslide of bad reviews. You can't expect the customers to be happy and willing to buy your next product if you don't fix the one you just sold.

They did not force anything - they made an investment in CloD and did not get a good return. Instead of losing more money they shut down development. Its simple economics.

 

But who is bringing up the speculation? Certainly i did not start it, whenever a COD feature is mentioned a few ppl here say "COD is dead" as if that means that a certain feature was the reason for CODs downfall... for this community to succeed concessions have to be made on both sides...

 

 

Of course not... we both agree that the moaning on cod forums did have an effect on the outcome of BOM but now being a hypocrite and moaning here.... where is the sense in that?

No one said one feature killed CloD - its clear that the develpopment team did not have the resources (whether that was skill, money, time, or desire) to create their vision of CloD. They made a wise business descision not to throw more money on development and risk losing that money on top of what they already lost.

Edited December 16, 2012 by 4./JG53_Wotan

[Krupi]

I think that 'for this community to succeed' we have to stop talking about 'sides', for a start. Though long term, success will depend on what 1C-777 can do, rather than on us.

 

Thats kind of the point i was making