Concerns from an IL-2 Veteran

[Opitz]

It's nice to see you again Tree... I hope it will never come back, what happened to you on banana forum.... btw. How do you live with knowing you destroyed that diamant with huge potential?  :D

Edited December 15, 2012 by Opitz

[SlipBall]

Clod will live on, absolutely no doubt about it...In the end there will be two groups, each with different requirements for flying enjoyment.

[Opitz]

Clod will live on, absolutely no doubt about it...In the end there will be two groups, each with different requirements for flying enjoyment.

 

Who wrote on banana forum this - the same day CLOD is released ROF will die? Is he registered here already? 

Edited December 15, 2012 by Opitz

[Hunty]

CLOD this CLOD that is that all were gunna hear until the release of BoS?

Edited December 15, 2012 by Hunty

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Well we will have to wait and see how it looks, as long has they don't put DX11 on the box and tell a multitude of others lies then we will get whats advertised!!

Here is a perfect example of how Tree calls the sim makers liars and others start to belive the lie..

 

When it is not a lie at all and just ignorance on Tree's part!

 

For example no where on the box or on the 1C or ubi website does it say CoD was a DX11 game making use of DX11 feature sets.. What the box and 1C and ubi website did say is it supports DX10 and the DX11 API

 

Note the letters API after the letters DX11

 

The letters API stand for Application Programming Interface

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface

 

And though I would not expect anyone but a programer to understand what API means, and how you can be using the DX11 API to program with and still produce a DX10 game.. But I would expect someone who does not understand what API means to take pause and do a little research on what it means before they call someone a liar

 

Sadly that is too much to expect from Tree and his lot

[=BKHZ=Tree_UK]

Here is a perfect example of how Tree calls the sim makers liars and others start to belive the lie..

 

When it is not a lie at all and just ignorance on Tree's part!

 

For example no where on the box or on the 1C or ubi website does it say CoD was a DX11 game making use of DX11 feature sets.. What the box and 1C and ubi website did say is it supports DX10 and the DX11 API

 

Note the letters API after the letters DX11

 

The letters API stand for Application Programming Interface

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface

 

And though I would not expect anyone but a programer to understand what API means, and how you can be using the DX11 API to program with and still produce a DX10 game.. But I would expect someone who does not understand what API means to take pause and do a little research on what it means before they call someone a liar

 

Sadly that is too much to expect from Tree and his lot

lol, ... same old badly sung tune eh Aceface, ...and what about all the other lies??

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

lol, ... same old badly sung tune eh Aceface,

Folks take notice how Tree avoids what I said and resorts to personal attacks

 

Why you ask?

 

Because Tree knows he is wrong and any attempt at addressing that would only highlight just how wrong he is!

 

In short he provides no answer because he has no answer other than to admit he was wrong.

 

Which he will never do!

 

Thus he HAS TO resort to personal attacks to try and take the focus off the fact that he was wrong.

 

Typical Tree/Troll stuff.

 

.

...and what about all the other lies??

Also note that he can not list any lies..

 

Why you ask?

 

Well he is using the Alfred Hitchcock approach here by letting YOUR imagination run wild!

 

Which is always going to be far worse than the truth!

 

And he is counting on that!

Edited December 15, 2012 by ACEOFACES

[=BKHZ=Tree_UK]

Folks take notice how Tree avoids what I said and resorts to personal attacks

 

Why you ask?

 

Because Tree knows he is wrong and any attempt at address the issue would only highlight just how wrong he is!

 

In short he provides no answer because he has no answer other than to admit he was wrong. Which he will never do, thus he HAS TO resort to personal attacks to try and take the focus off the fact that he was wrong. Typical troll stuff.

 

.Also note that he can not list any lies..

 

Why you ask?

 

Well he is using the Alfred Hitchcock approach here by letting YOUR imagination run wild! Which is always going to be far worse than the truth, in that the truth is there are no lies

....... I feel sorry for you Ace. 

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

....... I feel sorry for you Ace. 

More of the same..

 

If you want to see something funny.. Watch how he avoids this one..

 

Tree..

 

Question for you.. Are you saying you can NOT create a DX10 game using the DX11 API?

[APIKalimba]

Hey Tree ! Good to see you back again !

 

I see that your # 1 fan is still on your back and keeps on going with his 2 year old speach on "How Tree Killed CLOD"...

 

I feel you will be happy here...Jason is certainly not going to pull our legs on this one...To much at stake.

Keep on asking your questions to the guy and don't bother with the other trolls ...

 

Salute !

[Miffi]

Yeah Tree dont let em get to you damn trolls!

[GOAT-ACEOFACES]

Too funny..

 

Miffi has two posts..

 

The one above

 

And a thread he started where he says..

 

.

Could Battle of Stalingrad fail just like Cliffs of Dover did?

And he calls me the troll!

 

Makes you wonder just how many Tree kool-aid drinking minions there are out there

 

Or..

 

How many forum handles Tree currently has in this forum!

Edited December 15, 2012 by ACEOFACES

[56RAF_klem]

Guys, please don't bring the personal vitriol here from the banana forum.

 

As much as I agree with the OP the simple fact is that Jason has said he does not intend to give us a "CoD" with all its features. They will push the graphics as hard as they can but there's too much work to be done to tell where it will end up (http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=7&page=3&do=findComment&comment=947)

 

It's clear many CoD features like clickpit and possibly the extent/sophistication of CEM and engine modelling will not be there, nor I suspect the visual environment/graphics effects. We can only wait and see but everything I am reading makes it sound as though it will be outdated but functional when it is released. I hope it turns out not to be the case. In the meantime it will be interesting to see if any other developer believes that a 'SoW vision' level of combat simulator is viable.

 

Was the realsation of CoD too much to expect? I don't think so but you need a team and full expertise that can deliver it all and the money to develop it. I'm forced to the conclusion that 1C MG had neither in sufficient quantity on the CoD program. I hope that conclusion doesn't hurt the feelings of the devs who I believe did work hard on it but something was missing somewhere along the line.

[Bearcat]

I just hoped this forum would be moderated so people could not insult others gratuitously. Not what I expected from a new friendly forum....   

[addman]

Guys, please don't bring the personal vitriol here from the banana forum.

 

As much as I agree with the OP the simple fact is that Jason has said he does not intend to give us a "CoD" with all its features. They will push the graphics as hard as they can but there's too much work to be done to tell where it will end up (http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=7&page=3&do=findComment&comment=947)

 

It's clear many CoD features like clickpit and possibly the extent/sophistication of CEM and engine modelling will not be there, nor I suspect the visual environment/graphics effects. We can only wait and see but everything I am reading makes it sound as though it will be outdated but functional when it is released. I hope it turns out not to be the case. In the meantime it will be interesting to see if any other developer believes that a 'SoW vision' level of combat simulator is viable.

 

Was the realsation of CoD too much to expect? I don't think so but you need a team and full expertise that can deliver it all and the money to develop it. I'm forced to the conclusion that 1C MG had neither in sufficient quantity on the CoD program. I hope that conclusion doesn't hurt the feelings of the devs who I believe did work hard on it but something was missing somewhere along the line.

 

+1

 

I wish more people here had the same mindset as you klem. Your post is a perfect example of how to show an opinion and/or make a point without destroying threads with mindless/endless bickering.

[Krupi]

Guys, please don't bring the personal vitriol here from the banana forum.

 

As much as I agree with the OP the simple fact is that Jason has said he does not intend to give us a "CoD" with all its features. They will push the graphics as hard as they can but there's too much work to be done to tell where it will end up (http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=7&page=3&do=findComment&comment=947)

 

It's clear many CoD features like clickpit and possibly the extent/sophistication of CEM and engine modelling will not be there, nor I suspect the visual environment/graphics effects. We can only wait and see but everything I am reading makes it sound as though it will be outdated but functional when it is released. I hope it turns out not to be the case. In the meantime it will be interesting to see if any other developer believes that a 'SoW vision' level of combat simulator is viable.

 

Was the realsation of CoD too much to expect? I don't think so but you need a team and full expertise that can deliver it all and the money to develop it. I'm forced to the conclusion that 1C MG had neither in sufficient quantity on the CoD program. I hope that conclusion doesn't hurt the feelings of the devs who I believe did work hard on it but something was missing somewhere along the line.

 

+1 and what addman said.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

Well said, Klem.

[6BLBird-Dog]

I have to agree with Wolf & Spartan ,I think in many ways after the final patch Cliffs of Dover was getting close to what it should have been on release,buggy but  a far better product visibly than anything we had seen yet .

With extended support for Windows XP ending in early 2014 to continue with DX9 seem it may leave the game trying to catch up with future developments in hardware,drivers and operating systems . The CLOD engine has bugs but if it had been originaly released as it functions now the wows would have far outwighed the gripes.Yes there are many aspects that need work but for future-proofing & compatability with hardware & future drivers a newer engine than the present one used in ROF  would seem appropriate .

 

PS.Good post Klem .

Edited December 16, 2012 by 6BLBirdDog

[Jaws2002]

From what I read in the official information provided to us the last few days, I think the combat flight siming community just lost about ten years of improvements. It's sad what happened. Really sad.

I like ROF, I got most of the content released, I wish them good luck, but based on what they told us, I don't look forward to an old game with new planes and skins.

 

In three years from now, if we'll be around, they'll have to look for a new game engine and start from scratch to get to where we are now.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jaws2002

[Mac_Messer]

From what I read in the official information provided to us the last few days, I think the combat flight siming community just lost about ten years of improvements. It's sad what happened. Really sad.

I like ROF, I got most of the content released, I wish them good luck, but based on what they told us, I don't look forward to an old game with new planes and skins.

 

In three years from now, if we'll be around, they'll have to look for a new game engine and start from scratch to get to where we are now.

That sounds awful. Is there really nothing we have to look forward to?

Edited December 16, 2012 by Mac_Messer

[APIKalimba]

Personnally, I am very optimistic about the new BOS. It would not make sens for Jason and 777 to release a so famous sim like Sturmovik with average graphics

and so few options. It has to be up to date (2014) if they wish to have a commercial success to continue the series...So I suspect they will be putting a lot

of effort in upgrading the current engine.

Salute !

[Jaws2002]

Personnally, I am very optimistic about the new BOS. It would not make sens for Jason and 777 to release a so famous sim like Sturmovik with average graphics

and so few options. It has to be up to date (2014) if they wish to have a commercial success to continue the series...So I suspect they will be putting a lot

of effort in upgrading the current engine.

Salute !

I don't think they can change too much from the ROF engine in the short time they have until the proposed 2014 release. You can't build a new engine in a year.

[Bearcat]

You guys need to go have a drink or something...

[Jaws2002]

You guys need to go have a drink or something...

I'm sick as hell. I drank nothing but advil today. Now you understand why I'm cranky.  It's bloody saturday evening and I'm stuck at home.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jaws2002

[Bearcat]

One last thing on DX9 being a step backward. Consider that WoP is DX9 sim .. and in many ways it is a visually second only to CoD as far as WWIIsims go.

[Force10]

DCS A-10 is a DX9 title and some of the videos from that sim look almost life-like. Anti aliasing never really worked in COD without 3rd party injectors...so between the 2, I would rather have anti aliasing in a DX9 title, than no anti aliasing with DX11 lighting effects. Jaggy images are hard to miss...but subtle lighting effects are not as noticeable.

[startrekmike]

DCS A-10 is a DX9 title and some of the videos from that sim look almost life-like. Anti aliasing never really worked in COD without 3rd party injectors...so between the 2, I would rather have anti aliasing in a DX9 title, than no anti aliasing with DX11 lighting effects. Jaggy images are hard to miss...but subtle lighting effects are not as noticeable.

 

 

 That is a very good point, I challenge any of the DX9 doomsayers to look at that sim and seriously try to tell us that it looks like a cartoon, in almost every way it is more polished looking than just about any sim on the market these days (including both ROF and CloD) and proves that it is not the version number you use but the effort that goes into the actual work.

 

  Not only is DCS A-10C a gold standard for combat flight simulation in terms of realism, it is also one of the smoothest looking and running sims I have ever played, I think they did pretty well for just using DirectX 9.

 

  Seriously, take a minute to even watch a video or two of DCS A-10C to see what you can do with DX9, I think that it might at least put that fear at rest.

[startrekmike]

I don't think they can change too much from the ROF engine in the short time they have until the proposed 2014 release. You can't build a new engine in a year.

 

 

  Why would they need to build a new engine? That would be both impractical and not necessary, they can simply modify the one they have to suit the requirements of the new title.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

CLOD this CLOD that is that all were gunna hear until the release of BoS?

Thats a reasonable thing to expect Hunty. CoD is actually "IL2:Stumovik Cliffs of Dover" and this is the new IL2 Sturmovik forum and there is not much about BoS we can talk about yet. Comparison to the earlier titles in the series is natural.

 

Don't worry, as soon as the devlopers release more info about BoS the topics of conversations will move on to the new simulation.

 

Guess we all need to hope the developers get cracking and get the sim finished so we can all move on!

 

And there is only a Year and a half to go!

Edited December 16, 2012 by Skoshi Tiger

[wiseblood]

  Why would they need to build a new engine? That would be both impractical and not necessary, they can simply modify the one they have to suit the requirements of the new title.

They built a really great AI engine, a really great dynamic campaign engine, and a really great dynamic water/seaplane system in <1 year each, all with probably a lot less resources than they have now. So I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will deliver something more than just plain ROF with some new planes and a new map in over a year from now.

[=BKHZ=Tree_UK]

More of the same..

 

If you want to see something funny.. Watch how he avoids this one..

 

Tree..

 

Question for you.. Are you saying you can NOT create a DX10 game using the DX11 API?

Ace, here is the lie Oleg posted.... now stfu.

 

Hello everyone

 

 

 

Please use this thread to discuss:

 

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=11543

 

 

EVERYTHING IS WORK IN PROGRESS

 

 

Our new Hurricane WIP (Engine tools)

 

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0010.jpg

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0011.jpg

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0012.jpg

 

A quick look at ship damage. We have highly detailed ships, with damage nearly approaching that of aircraft in Il-2.

It's incredibly satisfying to see them break up in lots of different ways.

 

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_152922.jpg

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_152924.jpg

 

 

This is how the sim looks in DX9 right now, the simplest of all possible renders. The final version will look better with DX9, but DX11 will offer the best visuals.

 

 

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_161805.jpg

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_162147.jpg

 

 

Continuing to flesh out over pilots

 

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/04122009_10.jpg

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/04122009_12.jpg

 

 

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS ALL WORK IN PROGRESS

[ST_ami7b5]

And this used to be such a nice forum for few days...

How easily everything can be ruined if there is a 'good will'.

Sad...

[Doogerie]

from what ican see it seems that the cockpit will be a IL2 1946 style this isnot a huge problem for me as long as i can chage things like prop pitch flaps gearand radators I am happyand who knows 777 may put in an update one day of clickabe cockpits at leats we will have a good game at the end. as long as it has ROf leval or realisem I am happy.

 

I know that laot of people want to start up the aircraft like for real but come on guys there are things like money and time to consider

[3instein]

I just hoped this forum would be moderated so people could not insult others gratuitously. Not what I expected from a new friendly forum....   

Exactly and here was me thinking us simmers were thought of as "mature" ? 

 

One thing for sure

Have COD,watched most of the fights on the forums

Come here and it all looks so familiar

 

Have ROF,play it daily,and have never once seen any of this,which can only mostly be called "pure drivel" in the ROF forums,

In fact,as has been stated numerous times 

It is one of the best,friendly,welcoming places to visit as a simmer,

 

If,after a week this is what this place is like,imagine another year and a half of it,=DE-JA-FKN-VU

How mature,

Mick.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

What exactly is the lie here Tree?

 

Ace, here is the lie Oleg posted.... now stfu.

 

Hello everyone



Please use this thread to discuss:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=11543


EVERYTHING IS WORK IN PROGRESS


Our new Hurricane WIP (Engine tools)

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0010.jpg
http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0011.jpg
http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/hurri0012.jpg

A quick look at ship damage. We have highly detailed ships, with damage nearly approaching that of aircraft in Il-2.
It's incredibly satisfying to see them break up in lots of different ways.

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_152922.jpg
http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_152924.jpg


This is how the sim looks in DX9 right now, the simplest of all possible renders. The final version will look better with DX9, but DX11 will offer the best visuals.


http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_161805.jpg
http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/sho...204_162147.jpg


Continuing to flesh out over pilots

http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/04122009_10.jpg
http://files.games.1c.ru/il2pict/04122009_12.jpg


ONCE AGAIN THIS IS ALL WORK IN PROGRESS

[=BKHZ=Tree_UK]

................but DX11 will offer the best visuals.

[EAF_Paf]

It is sad to get all this BS get carried over to the new forum. Though it was foreseeable, I had hopes this would be a more pleasent forum to go to. Please lock this thread, already too many personal attacks.

[Revvin]

BoS could be just the first new title or expansion from this point onwards, who's to say once 1C see sales from BoS they continue this partnership with 777 Studio's and then updates to the engine to add DX11 support are released with new theatre's and aircraft? in the meantime we have a developer with a proven game engine who has at least another year if not more to tweak it to suit the needs of BoS. Nobody has taken anything away from you, you still have CloD to play if you wish.

[hiro]

Ok all egos aside (TLDR part first and details below)

 

Clod failed because the engine was broken and the devs, though they coded the engine, it maybe that they didn't know everything about the code (hence the time it took to get it working etc) or that new patches we'd see stuff before taken out or random changes that didn't make sense etc in regarding to proper modular coding and proper modular software design. 

 

777 + 1C have a working engine, its older, but they KNOW it. They have tested it, and since they know their code, they can fix, tweak, change and make it something similar to Clod without all the negatives. And possibly deliver features like climate, a/c weathering, ground attack units, people controlling AAA or ships, responsive friendly AI / realistic AI, realistic sounds, CEM etc . . . 

 

The new team will succeed where the old one failed, because they know the code they are dealing with.

 

The Clod team seemed like they were figuring things out, but it was nowhere near to the level 777 had with ROF's code, and CLod team just ran out of time / resources (to figure out their code). 

 

 

details

 

Clode

 

When Oleg was on the team (for Clod and SOW), they had a working version of SOW. I remember discussions by Oleg n crew of playing, but it was a WIP . . . (work in progress) . . .  

 

But after Oleg left, then somehow Luthier had to redo the code, and based off what happened, it's probable they had to code it from scratch. So then we got a game that worked 20% of the time all the time, but was broke 60% of the time all the time (a joke :D ).

 

A working engine vs a broke one. And even though Luthier and team managed to fix Clod, it still had issues. 

 

Granted given time, they would have had a working project (as we can see by the efforts for BOM). But somewhere 1C decided to pull the plug. Maybe they saw the code would always have issues, perhaps because Oleg knew the ins and outs of it and Luthier was figuring it out or Oleg was gone, so they couldn't use his code (that worked ) or Oleg left and with that bank of knowledge gone, tweaking the code might have done wrong.

 

Regardless what happened, the game had a broken engine. 

 

They were always putting out fires, instead of taking time to build something new. Hence the time it took. And if Luthier mentioned there was no money to be made, only on the BOM sequel, so they didn't have too much cash or time to really take a look and fix the code. 

 

And they didn't have a system in place. They had haphazard patching, and features randomly kept or removed. 

 

Apparently the management realized a working engine was critical and needed / wanted to get that working engine in the time they wanted. ANd the only way was a merger . . .

 

 

Now we have 777 + 1C 

 

The dev crew has resources and personnel. They have funding, and they have time. But most of all they have a working engine. The P-51 was just an average fighter, until they put the Merlin engine into it and then it became something great. 

 

Not only that they have a working engine, is even more crucial is they have intimate knowledge of how it works and what to do to make it better. That saves a lot of time . . . they have a system down to figure out whats wrong if its bugged, and get it fixed. Having a set methodology, a set system, really helps vs not having one. 

 

They know the territory they are dealing with. Not so with the CLoD team, it seemed they were on the right track, but still figuring things out. Maybe if they were given enough time, they could have got it working like ROF's engine.

 

But situation didn't turn out. And now we have a team that knows their code, knows their engine. That's an immense advantage compared to the Clod situation. 

Edited December 16, 2012 by hiro

[Skoshi_Tiger]

................but DX11 will offer the best visuals.

Still can't see any evidence of a 'lie'.

 

You must have missed all the places where he stated "remember this is a work in progress" and

"Can't say now. Engine can do, but need a time first. So what will be in final - we will see."

 

I don't remember any exclusive DX11 version of the game. I expect they didn't get that functionallity up to a state sutiable for release.

 

The DX 10 version has some very nice visuals and with the final patch it was fairly efficient too. Even on my mediocre system I can get better frame rates than I can in ROF.

 

It will be very interesting to be able to compare the Channel map in ROF and see what effect it has on our performance.

 

Cheers!