Concerns from an IL-2 Veteran

[DD_bongodriver]

See previous post for an example of the impatience.....

Edited December 15, 2012 by bongodriver

[addman]

While aiming for setting bars higher and having ambitions is something all developers should strive for, one also have to be realistic. It takes roughly one year to create a CloD level of detail cockpit, this game is supposed to be OUT in just over 1 year. The time it took to develop CloD versus the product that came out of it does not justify 6-7 years worth of development time, it was a squandered opportunity where some things were absolutely awesome with the game whilst a lot was unfinished, broken or neglected. I want a working WWII sim, not a screenshot simulator but that's just my preference.

[DD_bongodriver]

Furbs was always one of COD strongest opponents, never gave the devs a minutes peace, demanding demanding demanding!!!, right from the beginning, complaining that he spent 50 bucks, not realising that had COD made it he may well have only ever spent 50 bucks and had a sim to last the rest of his days, due to the fact that COD's ultimate direction was to have a suite of SDK's that the fan base could have created content for years to come at no further cost.

[addman]

No, what ultimately sealed COD's fate was the snivelling community that never realised quite what they were being 'given', MG had incurred the cost of developing all of these wonderfull features and got nothing in return but blatant slander and a complete lack of patience, admittedly in order to see what COD was really offering us you would have had to have the gift of being able to see beyond your nose, flight simming is a dying genre and COD was going to be the swansong, instead of something really impressive we are going to be seen out with something safe, dependable, unambitious and slighly beyond it's sell by date but repackaged to say otherwise.

 

This is my oppinion, I am entitled to share it, don't like it then just ignore it and walk away.

 

It's your opinion, I criticised the way CloD was handled and the state it was in quite a few times but I think that the regular DVD version plus the Collector's Edittion that is sitting on my PC desktop shelf gave me the right to do so.

[SlipBall]

COD was killed by either 8 years of bad-management, at least 2 restarts, a almost complete turn over of staff including Oleg, a abysmal launch(with Oleg signing copies and then vanishing), bad reviews across the board, a problem with full screen, people with epilepsy,  bad PR, broken or missing features, no COOP's, lies, broken SLI, a awful GUI, half arsed patches, patches that broke sound, patches that caused CTD's, alpha, beta and more beta patches, floating ships, non starting hurricanes and last but not least banjo vids...

 

...or paying customers complaining about the above. 

They were trying to give you something special Furbs it just didn't work out.

[DD_Arthur]

The team that put together CloD had more initial funding to start and could not make CloD profitible - what makes you think a few IC and 777 guys can remake "CloD" and make it successful?

 

CloD, despite what you all want it to be, was a failure. It doesn't matter how great the graphics are after years of beta patching it was a failure. Why would any company, especially a small one with lmited funding, follow that buisness model?

 

The problem is you all have unrealistic expectations - these expectations were toyed with in CloD and as a result CloD has no official future. They could not pull it off. The guys working on BoS have to make money and they have earn enough to make their efforts worth while and they have to set realistic expectations from the start..

 

if you don't like what these guys plan to do with BoS - then don't buy. That is the same thing a lot folks did when it came to CloD.

 

This.   I hope in the spring, after we know more about how the new game will be shaping some of this CloD did this/CloD did that talk will have died down as we see more of what this new team are working on.

CloD is over.  However wonderful this thing or that was, in the end it was a commercial failure.  Nothing else matters. 

 

I think the new developers know exactly what they want to do and have a pretty good idea of how to go about it.  I don't think they'd be making this sort of an investment if they were not confident of being able to produce a first-rate product that people will want to buy. 

 

CloD will remain on my hd for the foreseeable future, it's too gorgeous to be without. 

 

But it's over.  

[Krupi]

Furbs was always one of COD strongest opponents, never gave the devs a minutes peace, demanding demanding demanding!!!, right from the beginning, complaining that he spent 50 bucks, not realising that had COD made it he may well have only ever spent 50 bucks and had a sim to last the rest of his days, due to the fact that COD's ultimate direction was to have a suite of SDK's that the fan base could have created content for years to come at no further cost.

 

 

Amusing that upon hearing that non of his demands from COD will be met in BOS he has yet to say anything negative, double standards thats all I see when I come to this board... double standards 

Edited December 15, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[=IRFC=Huetz]

Hell probably just froze over but I can agree with bongodriver to some extend, CloD could have massively pushed  genre forward in terms of what's possible, however the sad reality is that they feel short in delivering a functioning core.

 

However:

 

It's not about how the devs got smacked in the face with negative review after negative review and insults by the community, it's about promises not kept and in some cases blatant lies even. Sure, they were forced to push it out early but then again how much development time can you actually have? The concept of  at some point the publisher just putting  an end to playing around and either abandons a project or forces it on the market prematurely is nothing new in the gaming industry as a whole.

 

The crucial problem that doomed CloD a long, long way before the release and subsequent patching debacle was an overly demanding community above everything else.

 

The exact same thing is happening here again with the same people that demanded (often completely useless) feature after feature in the banana forums coming over here and pulling the same move off yet again. Classy, I have to say.

 

It's not the disgrunteled customer that bought a product and then complains on a message board about it's completely broken state, it's the overambitious neckbeard with zero to no clue about what developing a working product comes down to.

 

Time and time again these same people clogged to forums with how they wanted every rivet modelled down to the last atom and their foolish master put on a pedestal as the god to deliver all simming dreams fueled the fire then dissapeared completely.

 

The only reassuring thing for BoS is that these devs actually have a history of coming out with a project that works and that is sustainable not a utopia that vanishes into nothingness after just two years.

 

I know the example is getting old but let's take a close look at RoF's release for comparison, as in my opinion it was in a similar state as CloD in it's original iteration with one major difference: people could actually run it without too much trouble.

 

Sure, content was lacking miserably both in terms of AI, missions, mp and flyable but people were actually able to run it, decently as well if you had a quadcore.

 

Three years from now a lot has improved, it's still missing some really great features in certain areas but the underlying concept is a solid and sustainable simulation and will continue to be for a long time. It's coming along one step and one cool feature at a time and in the end this is what we will be getting with BoS. Sure, it's not a really ambitious project right of the bat but I've said the exact same thing yesterday already as well.

 

As a developer you can not simply create a roof of gold if the foundation is broken.

[Krupi]

The only reassuring thing for BoS is that these devs actually have a history of coming out with a project that works and that is sustainable not a utopia that vanishes into nothingness after just two years.

 

Are you seriously telling me that MG didn't have a history of coming out with a project that worked!!!

[DD_bongodriver]

It's your opinion, I criticised the way CloD was handled and the state it was in quite a few times but I think that the regular DVD version plus the Collector's Edittion that is sitting on my PC desktop shelf gave me the right to do so.

 

Yeah, there were too many people that thought they had paid for a ticket to complain and used the perceived right to the fullest extent, making the forums the most miserable place imagineable, now the shoe is on the other foot suddenly people are finding some complaints a little irritating, I just don't get how many of you seem to be able to exclude yourselves from being culpable for what makes a commercial success/failure, it's up to the buying public or it just ain't a commercial venture.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

IIRC even Jason once said that constant negativity can damage a title, or words to that effect. For some reason some of the more vociferous complainers about CoD seem to have done a complete 180 here.

Furbs why is it that the things you complained about in CoD are ok for BoS? You have been strangely silent so far.

Edited December 15, 2012 by JG52Uther

[DD_bongodriver]

The public threw COD back in their faces, now 1C are going to take back some of the money they spent on it by selling us a cheaper alternative with maximum profits.

 

 

Oh but thats just fine because they might get 56 fps with working AA, just junk food for a quick fix and no looking to the future, these are the same people that complained about COD having features removed during the process of trying to fix it, and now all of a sudden that doesn't matter because * instert glorious choiral chanting of angels tune here* 777 are doing it.......in co-operation with 1C.

Edited December 15, 2012 by bongodriver

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

IIRC even Jason once said that constant negativity can damage a title, or words to that effect. For some reason some of the more vociferous complainers about CoD seem to have done a complete 180 here.

Furbs why is it that the things you complained about in CoD are ok for BoS? You have been strangely silent so far.

Which bits?

[=IRFC=Huetz]

Stop putting words in my mouth. MG had that history until CloD. They have managed to destroy the best reputation and position anyone in this simulation industry could have ( and will have for a long time) to the last bit.  3 years back, who would have even dared to think that one day 777 will step in and take the series over?

 

Seriously, it's getting old. All there is in here is baseless complaining and whining over how good the CloD days were and how bad this new product is going to be.

 

Newsbreak: CloD is dead, rightfully so,  and not even the most ferocious crying, besides only makeing you look rediculous,  will ever bring it back.

 

I'm all open for freedom of speech but threads like this should actually just be locked right away by a mod. There is no other purpose other than being a playground for the same 5-10 naysayers. There's no need to shove your attitude down the throat of each and every person that comes along. 

It's trolling and arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

There's a reason why most people are actually excited in here.

 

 If you're so pessimistic about this, you can surely go out and play one of the many other great WW2 sims out there. Oh wait...

Edited December 15, 2012 by Huetz

[SlipBall]

I don;t think Clod is dead

[SYN_Haashashin]

I also think it should be locked, not right away but when it gets to a point where people star the RoF/CloD battle again. Its been like that for 3 years?? its getting old and I never said a word on that "war". CloD is done, I mean it wont be touched by any dev team, doesnt mean you guys can still enjoy it so saying is dead only bring discussion as CloD player will respond back, understandable cus is not dead, is not longer in development and that a total different story.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

They were trying to give you something special Furbs it just didn't work out.

Your right, and i was a disappointed as anyone else.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

The ONLY value for a forum like this is for people to express the concerns, their wants and exchange ideas.  Most of us here a flight sim fans. Most of us here have played Cliffs of Dover AND Rise of Flight.

 

Parts of OUR community have concerns and need to express them.

 

I'm sure that the devlopers are interested in the concerns of the community. I am sure that the developers are interested in what the various parts of our community think is important in fligh sims.

 

There will be technical limitations that they need to concidered when they develop the simulation but they will want to gain the biggest customer base possible with their product and they do that by listening to their customers.

[SYN_Haashashin]

The ONLY value for a forum like this is for people to express the concerns, their wants and exchange ideas.  Most of us here a flight sim fans. Most of us here have played Cliffs of Dover AND Rise of Flight.

 

Parts of OUR community have concerns and need to express them.

 

I'm sure that the devlopers are interested in the concerns of the community. I am sure that the developers are interested in what the various parts of our community think is important in fligh sims.

 

There will be technical limitations that they need to concidered when they develop the simulation but they will want to gain the biggest customer base possible with their product and they do that by listening to their customers.

 

Beeing 777 at charge, be sure they will be listening, that they do all things that people tell them, is another story, after all, its their business and they are the one that run it, not us. All I say is that Clod/RoF war discussion is just pointless.

[DD_bongodriver]

Beeing 777 at charge, be sure they will be listening, that they do all things that people tell them, is another story, after all, its their business and they are the one that run it, not us. All I say is that Clod/RoF war discussion is just pointless.

 

 

777 are driving the bus, 1c are paying for the fuel, who is really in charge of making the journey?

[=IRFC=Huetz]

777 are driving the bus, 1c are paying for the fuel, who is really in charge of making the journey?

 

And where did you get that information from?  This is exactly the difference between voicing a concern in a constructive manner and trolling.

 

Seriously, grow a pair and get over it. You will find that your bananaforum attitude is not welcome here.

[SlipBall]

Your right, and i was a disappointed as anyone else.

yep amen to that

[SYN_Haashashin]

777 are driving the bus, 1c are paying for the fuel, who is really in charge of making the journey?

 

Well if 1c didnt pay the fuel as you said, the bus wont move ok but without 777 driver where it will end up the bus?? in the bottom of the gorge. So is a win win situation. (not that agree that the deal was like that)

 

Anyways you are just speculating and indeed can be seen as trolling. Noone know how the deal was made.

[DD_bongodriver]

And where did you get that information from?  This is exactly the difference between voicing a concern in a constructive manner and trolling.

 

Seriously, grow a pair and get over it. You will find that your bananaforum attitude is not welcome here.

 

So tell us, what is the actual relationship going on then? I'm getting my information from the same place everyone else is.

 

1C just dumped a promising WWII title and are still looking to be in the market to recoup some losses, 777 are reaching the end of service life for a waning WWI title (calls for support are plastered on the ROF site) and are looking for cash to secure a future, mutually they have agreed to a joint venture.

 

This is not trolling, it is a formed oppinion, you will find this forum is not your ancestral home and you are going to have to get used to all sorts of people here.

 

Well if 1c didnt pay the fuel as you said, the bus wont move ok but without 777 driver where it will end up the bus?? in the bottom of the gorge. So is a win win situation. (not that agree that the deal was like that)

 

Anyways you are just speculating and indeed can be seen as trolling. Noone know how the deal was made.

 

Well the rest of us can figure out that no driver means the bus doesn't even get started, point is I was on a bus heading to eutopia and 1C sacked the driver and sent us back to catch an alternate service from another operator.

Edited December 15, 2012 by bongodriver

[Krupi]

So tell us, what is the actual relationship going on then? I'm getting my information from the same place everyone else is.

 

1C just dumped a promising WWII title and are still looking to be in the market to recoup some losses, 777 are reaching the end of service life for a waning WWI title (calls for support are plastered on the ROF site) and are looking for cash to secure a future, mutually they have agreed to a joint venture.

 

This is not trolling, it is a formed oppinion, you will find this forum is not your ancestral home and you are going to have to get used to all sorts of people here.

 

Come on bongo we should at least give them a chance.

 

I am clearly pissed off at the news as you are but nothing will change that now, this thread was meant to be constructive...

[Bearcat]

777 are driving the bus, 1c are paying for the fuel, who is really in charge of making the journey?

 

Really? You mean to tell me that the sucess of 777 with RoF is nothing? I'd say that 777 has enough fuel in it's own right to share much of the driving on this trip. 777 is not just management here. They actually took a dead product, breathed life into it and got it functional, and then even more importantly fixed a lot of what was wrong with it. Seems to me they handle road trips pretty well.

 

Parts of this thread make me think of going to the meternity ward to mourn the patients heading for the mourge.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

True Krupi, and I am as guilty as everyone else.Just sticks in the craw a bit that the same people who made a career out of being negative at 1c are now here lapping it up, when looking at the dev diary we will be getting less than we had already.

[DD_bongodriver]

Really? You mean to tell me that the sucess of 777 with RoF is nothing? I'd say that 777 has enough fuel in it's own right to share much of the driving on this trip. 777 is not just management here. They actually took a dead product, breathed life into it and got it functional, and then even more importantly fixed a lot of what was wrong with it. Seems to me they handle road trips pretty well.

 

Parts of this thread make me think of going to the meternity ward to mourn the patients heading for the mourge.

 

Then why have 777 joined up with 1C if they are finacially independent? have 777 bought into the IL2 franchise? if so why would such an independently successful enterprise need to?

 

Come on bongo we should at least give them a chance.

 

I am clearly pissed off at the news as you are but nothing will change that now, this thread was meant to be constructive...

 

Like I'm standing in their way..

[=IRFC=Huetz]

1c just dumped a title that has damaged their reputation for years to come, it's either that or nothing at all. It really is a simple as that. And where exactly do you see calls for support plastered on the RoF site? 

 

Sure, in light of the recent announcement WWI exclusive people are afraid that RoF may become the stepchild brother of the bigger WW2 sim but once you understand how scarce good WWI titles are there's actually a reason behind it.

 

 

This is not trolling, it is a formed oppinion, you will find this forum is not your ancestral home and you are going to have to get used to all sorts of people here.

 

 

It's actually an uninformed opinion (as you have no basis for any claims you make) intended to stir up unconstructive discussion. = Trolling. I'm also pretty convinced we'll not have to deal with you for long B)

 

Come on bongo we should at least give them a chance.

 

This pretty much. You will find that if the final product should not be up to scratch people will be happy to jump on that bandwagon really quickly.

 

I also understand your concerncs Uther but this is not the place to hold old grudges against people. Also, we will not be getting more or less than we already had. We will get something new, which is all we know so far, the rest will be revealed in due time, just don't hold your breath.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Huetz

[SYN_Haashashin]

Well bongo to me 1c dropped a broken product/engine, 2 years trying to fix it and it was impossible...wait for the new sim and if things goes like in RoF, expect a new update, then if its broken somehow, expect a quick fix and by quick I mean 1 or 2 days some of them. An trully saying that 777 was short of cash and making this statement: "777 are reaching the end of service life for a waning WWI title (calls for support are plastered on the ROF site)" make me think you just dont know, 777 has being asking for support since day 1 (small niche market) and if they are reaching that end...how is that they are releasing 3 planes and 1 map in probably 4 or 6 months???.

 

And i dont know how it was on 1c forums before, but I know how i would like it to be here and trully trolling is not ideal.

Edited December 15, 2012 by SYN_Haashashin

[Krupi]

I also understand your concerncs Uther but this is not the place to hold old grudges against people. Also, we will not be getting more or less than we already had. We will get something new, which is all we know so far, the rest will be revealed in due time, just don't hold your breath.

 

It does not help that they are rubbing it in the faces of CODs fans, grudges goes both ways its always the few bad apples...

[SYN_Haashashin]

It does not help that they are rubbing it in the faces of CODs fans, grudges goes both ways its always the few bad apples...

 

There is a nice report function on this forums feel free to use it.

[=IRFC=Huetz]

It does not help that they are rubbing it in the faces of CODs fans, grudges goes both ways its always the few bad apples...

 

100% with you. It's a matter of not falling into the old patterns again really for all of us. We're in the same boat now really, wether we like it or not.

[HolyGrail]

We did not have to be in such situation discussing upcoming BOS simulator

if not for CloD now becoming a competition to BOS .

Give us the promised SDK tools for CloD and watch the show .

There wouldn't be 1C games studio forum created at all .

That's the point .

Some of you have given up on CloD pretty quickly because of no future .

It's not our combat flight sim community fault they did not release SDK .

With releasing SDK for CloD there would not be BOS .

Waiting patiently for fully working CloD SFS extractor......................................

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

True Krupi, and I am as guilty as everyone else.Just sticks in the craw a bit that the same people who made a career out of being negative at 1c are now here lapping it up, when looking at the dev diary we will be getting less than we had already.

 Or more.

 

To answer your earlier question Uther, i never complained about CLOD until i saw something i wasn't happy with, until then i was very positive and full of praise.

 

Though my main reason this time round is i have seen what 777 have done with ROF, and after seeing and hearing how Jason and his team go about their work i have trust in what they will try and get done.

[DD_bongodriver]

It's actually an uninformed opinion (as you have no basis for any claims you make) intended to stir up unconstructive discussion. = Trolling. I'm also pretty convinced we'll not have to deal with you for long B)

 

 

 

 

An oppinion is just that, if you want to make something more of it that is your problem, now is it your oppinion or is it an accusation that I'm a troll?

Edited December 15, 2012 by bongodriver

[Krupi]

There is a nice report function on this forums feel free to use it.

 

Unfortunately the trolls from 1c on both sides perfected the way of irritating someone without appearing to do so from an outsiders view 

 

And to give you a bit of my 1c background I was not a COD fanboy I did not ignore the problems that COD had I attempted "rather badly" to stop the infighting... it never worked 

 

I hope they bring an ignore feature on to this forum.

 

 Or more.

 

To answer your earlier question Uther, i never complained about CLOD until i saw something i wasn't happy with, until then i was very positive and full of praise.

 

Though my main reason this time round is i have seen what 777 have done with ROF, and after seeing and hearing how Jason and his team go about their work i have trust in what they will try and get done.

 

The irony here is so great I had to put a stick in my mouth to stop myself from biting my own tongue off... 

[=IRFC=Huetz]

An oppinion is just that, if you want to make something more of it that is your problem, now is it your oppinion or is it an accusation that I'm a troll?

 

None of the above, it's a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope they bring an ignore feature on to this forum.

 

Probably the most constructive suggestion in the last 20 similar threads right there.

[Bearcat]

Then why have 777 joined up with 1C if they are finacially independent? have 777 bought into the IL2 franchise? if so why would such an independently successful enterprise need to?

 

 

Like I'm standing in their way..

Duhhh  Because they cannot rest on their laurels and any wise businessperson we be able to recognize an opportunity when they see one, either to start a new venture, end an old one or merge two teams. Some of you have said that CoD is in competition with BoS.... How silly is that... That CoD would be in competition with an as of yet non existant product..  It just seems to me that many of the posts made here by many folks should be made at 1C.. Not here.

[vl6]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another topic became a fight of bruised egos