Need help with FW190 diving

[System87]

When the game just came out of beta I could outdive any russians with the FW easy but now i get cought 9 out of 10 times, doesnt metter if steep or shallow dive. I usually get to speeds above 800kmh but i just cant shake the russians. Do you guys have similar expiriences? Am  I missing something and dooing it wrong? Please if someone can shed some light on this I would be greatfull because I cant understand how they keep up with me. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Yak can dive at 700 now apparently so the margin is smaller and the good yak pilots shallow their dive when they see you dive away like that which means they can catch up with you after you've thrown away all your altitude.

 

What I've found works better is to dip the nose enough to build up speed then to extend away and then go in to a high speed climb at 400-450 when caught with my trousers down. I managed to drag a yak from ~3k all the way up to 7k by climbing at higher speeds.

 

Personally I think running for the deck is a bad idea unless you are absolutely desperate.

[Jizzo]

wep, while diving to get most acceleration, till you start seeing seperation increasment after that proper trim to retain highspeed as long as possible. 

 

once you are clear trim to 500+kph climb to really make sure you are clear when getting altitude again.

 

cheer J

[Y-29.Silky]

Nothing escapes my Lagg in a dive, nooooothing!

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

Yak can dive at 700 now apparently so the margin is smaller and the good yak pilots shallow their dive when they see you dive away like that which means they can catch up with you after you've thrown away all your altitude.

 

What I've found works better is to dip the nose enough to build up speed then to extend away and then go in to a high speed climb at 400-450 when caught with my trousers down.

It doesn't work above 1200m (because of the borked Kommandogerät). Maybe against a LaGG-3, maybe...

 

 

 

What I've found works better is to dip the nose enough to build up speed then to extend away and then go in to a high speed climb at 400-450 when caught with my trousers down. I managed to drag a yak from ~3k all the way up to 7k by climbing at higher speeds.

What ? It takes you a climb of 4000m to maybe take advantage on a Yak-1 ? Weird...

 

 

You cannot out-energy fight a Yak-1 in your Fw-190 above 1200m, nope.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

You cannot out-energy fight a Yak-1 in your Fw-190 above 1200m, nope.

 

Are you being serious?

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

Are you being serious?

Well, if we admit that both planes are at the same altitude at co-energy, yes, I am serious then.

 

Edit: Since the 190 is more draggy AND climbs worse above 1200m, and even at full power... Above 2600m...

Edited October 3, 2015 by Spoutpout

[System87]

Nothing escapes my Lagg in a dive, nooooothing!

How fast can you actually dive in a lagg witout having parts fly off?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Well, if we admit that both planes are at the same altitude at co-energy, yes, I am serious then.

 

Edit: Since the 190 is more draggy AND climbs worse above 1200m, and even at full power... Above 2600m...

 

If you use the same climb speeds then I would agree but what I find is that you climb at a lower ROC but a much high airspeed and you will out climb the Yak if he tries to match you, yes he can out climb you if he climbs at a steeper angle but then you will pull away from him. Have you experimented with this because it's how it worked in the original IL2 as well. 

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

If you use the same climb speeds then I would agree but what I find is that you climb at a lower ROC but a much high airspeed and you will out climb the Yak if he tries to match you, yes he can out climb you if he climbs at a steeper angle but then you will pull away from him. Have you experimented with this because it's how it worked in the original IL2 as well. 

In the original Il-2, the Fw-190 isn't underperforming above 1200m, and you have to take in consideration the Yak-1 overspeed at high altitude in BoS winter.

That's why it can't work in winter in BoS.

[Y-29.Silky]

How fast can you actually dive in a lagg witout having parts fly off?

Don't know, never had it happen, so I'd say over the 700kph range.

[Wulf]

When the game just came out of beta I could outdive any russians with the FW easy but now i get cought 9 out of 10 times, doesnt metter if steep or shallow dive. I usually get to speeds above 800kmh but i just cant shake the russians. Do you guys have similar expiriences? Am  I missing something and dooing it wrong? Please if someone can shed some light on this I would be greatfull because I cant understand how they keep up with me. 

 

 

First thing of course, try and avoid situations where you're forced to dive away from an enemy who has got within gun range of you.  It's very hard to get good separation in such circumstances without either getting 'lit-up' or sustaining some critical damage.

 

What I tend to do when I'm caught napping like this (which happens far more often than it should unfortunately) is to quickly dive (and if the situation is really drastic- spiral dive to try and avoid getting shot) and then once I have some speed I suddenly reverse my lift vector to get momentarily underneath the sight-line of the pursuing enemy before using my elevators to push myself wide.  My throttle hand will be half way through the instrument panel at this stage as I attempt to get as much speed as possible from the old girl before reversing yet again - at much high speed (650-700+k).  The 190's roll isn't quite what it should be but at high speed you can still use it to clear most opponents from your tail.  Speed is the key.  Get fast before rolling and then once you have forced a gap gradually move out of danger with careful use of your throttle . 

[Finkeren]

How fast can you actually dive in a lagg witout having parts fly off?

It happens dynamically, so you can't put an exact number on it. I've started to lose control surfaces even before hitting 700 km/h, and I've reached 750 and been completely safe. The Fw 190 can dive safely at 800+ though, so if it has enough altitude, it can outdive the LaGG 10 times out of 10.

[Wulf]

..... sorry, I failed to mention above that the objective when diving away (aside from survival of course) is to achieve both vertical and horizontal separation from your enemy.  Because the enemy can turn inside you a break-turn will get you killed in most instances (in a 190).  But by using your ailerons and speed it is possible to extend on either side of the attacking fighter whilst at the same time gradually increasing your lead.  Anyway, this has been my experience.

[150GCT_Veltro]

 

 

What I've found works better is to dip the nose enough to build up speed then to extend away and then go in to a high speed climb at 400-450 when caught with my trousers down. I managed to drag a yak from ~3k all the way up to 7k by climbing at higher speeds.

 

 

 

Agree, tested your tip yesterday and it works better than a diving escape.

[Y-29.Silky]

What I've found works better is to dip the nose enough to build up speed then to extend away and then go in to a high speed climb at 400-450 when caught with my trousers down. I managed to drag a yak from ~3k all the way up to 7k by climbing at higher speeds.

 

Personally I think running for the deck is a bad idea unless you are absolutely desperate.

This is actually what is driving the playerbase away, the Luftwaffe Space Program running to the edge of the map at 7000m. 3K is prime altitude for the 190, 7k is not, you actually went from an advantage to a disadvantage. You can easily take a Yak on in that situation if after your shallow dive for separation, you went in the vert and went back towards him.

[JtD]

I disagree with that.

[Sunde]

"You can easily take a Yak on in that situation if after your shallow dive for separation, you went in the vert and went back towards him."

This i truely would love you to show me in perhaps one of the duel servers. 

[Wulf]

I share the skepticism.  Escaping from a dodgy situation in a 190 is difficult enough but going back on the offensive (against your attacker) is even more so.  The problem is getting enough separation to enable you to reverse and go back on the attack without getting shot in the process.  In many instances I find that once I start to climb it's very difficult to extend sufficiently to justify an attack.  If there are multiple bandits it's usually impossible.  If it's a lone P 40, probably not too difficult but Yaks/Laggs/Las, even I-16s - not easy at all, particularly if the pilots are competent (and that's most people these days unfortunately).

 

If I can, I attempt to 'step climb' my way up to an altitude of about 4k and then, if I have enough separation at that point (1.5 k or more) I will lift the nose close to the stall to get as high as possible, apply flaps and then attempt to dive on the bandit with the intention of picking up sufficient speed to enable me to zoom climb again for a more effective set-up and kill.  I find that if the enemy manages to stay close to me during this phase there's very little I can do about it and I may as well head for home.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Wulf

[ACG_pezman]

No offense to our axis driver friends, but silky is right. Since I have not seen any of you fly allies on mp (normal especially) you haven't experienced chasing a 190 up to 5+k. It is possible but it's not 10 out of 10 times.

[Dakpilot]

I share the skepticism.  Escaping from a dodgy situation in a 190 is difficult enough but going back on the offensive (against your attacker) is even more so.  The problem is getting enough separation to enable you to reverse and go back on the attack without getting shot in the process.  In many instances I find that once I start to climb it's very difficult to extend sufficiently to justify an attack.  If there are multiple bandits it's usually impossible.  If it's a lone P 40, probably not too difficult but Yaks/Laggs/Las, even I-16s - not easy at all, particularly if the pilots are competent (and that's most people these days unfortunately).

 

If I can, I attempt to 'step climb' my way up to an altitude of about 4k and then, if I have enough separation at that point (1.5 k or more) I will lift the nose close to the stall to get as high as possible, apply flaps and then attempt to dive on the bandit with the intention of picking up sufficient speed to enable me to zoom climb again for a more effective set-up and kill.  I find that if the enemy manages to stay close to me during this phase there's very little I can do about it and I may as well head for home.

 

 This doesn't sound the most efficient way to climb, or gain an altitude advantage, surely it is simply best to stick to best Vx or Vy speed to achieve your aim

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Wulf]

What, 'step climbing' or are you referring to the reference to pulling the nose up near the stall before commencing a diving attack?

Edited October 6, 2015 by Wulf

[SR-F_Winger]

When the game just came out of beta I could outdive any russians with the FW easy but now i get cought 9 out of 10 times, doesnt metter if steep or shallow dive. I usually get to speeds above 800kmh but i just cant shake the russians. Do you guys have similar expiriences? Am  I missing something and dooing it wrong? Please if someone can shed some light on this I would be greatfull because I cant understand how they keep up with me. 

Just dont fly the 190 its a coffin. Just like every other german plane against the UFO-1.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Winger

[Sunde]

As i said, i'd really like somone to show me the tactic Silky claims to be "easily" capable of taking out a yak when flying the FW190, as i just dont see that happening if the yak pilot is even remotely competent. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by 19te.Mueller

[KoN_]

Best thing to do is go into battle with a Wingman , dont fly alone not in the 190 , it can be done in the 109 , so if your taking a 190 fly with company . If your doing JaBo fly with hight dive down hit target , use the speed to extend away , no turns , just use that speed , once clear and safe gain hight .

You can out run the P-40 and  il-16 .

The FM will not change .You Just need to get used to it .

Fly with friends .

Yesterday night was good team work on the WOL .server , Twice the Axis won the battle . 109 working with 190 .

[SR-F_Winger]

As i said, i'd really like somone to show me the tactic Silky claims to be "easily" capable of taking out a yak when flying the FW190, as i just dont see that happening if the yak pilot is even remotely competent. 

There is none. I flew the FW very intensively. Even energy, aproximately even skill the 190 cant do anything but in the best case run and after half an hour making separation turning around and trying a headon - wait, aint gonna happen since the UFO pilot will simply climb and you cant follow him and THEN youre toast. The guy that tells otherwise is a liar.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Winger

[LittleJP]

Best way is to work with a team. Main advantage is the speed which lets you dictate your engagement to some degree with a wingman. Turn a 2 v 2 to a 2 v 1. Very difficult to do anything once you lose E advantage in a 1 v 1.

[Y-29.Silky]

As i said, i'd really like somone to show me the tactic Silky claims to be "easily" capable of taking out a yak when flying the FW190, as i just dont see that happening if the yak pilot is even remotely competent.

Maybe you should fly the Yak for once and experience it for yourself. Go into QMB and watch what the AI does.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Maybe you should fly the Yak for once and experience it for yourself. Go into QMB and watch what the AI does.

 

Pretentiously pointing out an unproven-to-exist flaw in another person's piloting really doesn't validate your point, mate... 

[Sunde]

Maybe you should fly the Yak for once and experience it for yourself. Go into QMB and watch what the AI does.

Flown the YAK against AI 109 - 190 pilots plenty, its no longer any challenge, once you know how the AI rolls, its quite easy to bring down. 

The only times i'd loose against a 190AI would be when they snipe me, this i cannot do much about. 

Sadly they do not "easily" defeat me, certainly not the way you describe. 

So as i said, i'd really like somone to show me this way of flying, as i simply do not see it working with how the 190 performs versus the yak. 

 

[coconut]

Pretentiously pointing out an unproven-to-exist flaw in another person's piloting really doesn't validate your point, mate... 

 

But then maybe Winger could post a track or a video of his failings, and get an opportunity to be told what he's doing wrong.

 

Unless people start posting tracks and videos, these discussions can't lead anywhere. I don't know of videos of specifically Fw190 vs Yak1 online, but I have made one about Fw190 vs La5, I just made one vs Yak1 (but against AI). There's also one by FB-Arhangel in a bf109g2 vs MkMrX in a yak1 that demonstrates the concept. Then there are also hours after hours of these two Russian guys shooting low-altitude Bf109s and Fw190s attempting to turn fight with their Yak. I think that a certain skepticism against the claim that the Fw190 is hopeless is warranted.

Edited October 6, 2015 by coconut

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

But then maybe Winger could post a track or a video of his failings, and get an opportunity to be told what he's doing wrong.

 

-snip-

 

That's well and all but I wasn't responding to a post about Winger...

 

By your logic, Silky should really post tracks/video because saying it's easy... Well, that doesn't validate anybody's reasoning (just like I already said) and clearly everybody who disagrees with him needs a lesson on how right his piloting is...

 

I feel that the claim that the Yak-1 is an easy contender against the current 190 and its perceived strengths is... well... unwarranted. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

There's also one by FB-Arhangel in a bf109g2 vs MkMrX in a yak1 that demonstrates the concept.

That fight ended in a head to head pass which could have gone either way. Whilst the initial positioning at high altitude was well done, resorting to a h2h pass shows that the 109 was possibly not going to get a legitimate guns solution any other way. A great amount of energy is lost attempting to get on the 6 of a yak at altitude.

 

I've seen many Yaks successfully evade high altitude passes over and over until using their energy retention abilities to completely reverse the fight on an impatient German pilot.

 

Going h2h when you have the energy advantage is in my mind nothing but a gamble. Both of those guys are very accurate.

[coconut]

 

 

That fight ended in a head to head pass which could have gone either way

Before that, at 6:40, Arhangel gets an opportunity for a snapshot. And before that, he overshot MkMrX who missed his shot. You are right it could have gone either ways. Still, a battle between two aces, one of them flying a Yak, did not automatically turn to the Yak's advantage.

 

This quote

 

 

Just dont fly the 190 its a coffin. Just like every other german plane against the UFO-1

 

 

and this quote

 

 

Even energy, aproximately even skill the 190 cant do anything but in the best case run and after half an hour making separation turning around and trying a headon - wait, aint gonna happen since the UFO pilot will simply climb and you cant follow him and THEN youre toast

 

I can't agree with. 

 

 

I feel that the claim that the Yak-1 is an easy contender against the current 190 and its perceived strengths is... well... unwarranted.

No question about that. It's definitely challenging. 

[SR-F_Winger]

some Defencive flying .

while doing a JaBo mission in wings of liberty .

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M43H7tFfYrA

You were practically the whole time the best target someone can think of. The russian simply did have ZERO shooting skills.

[Matt]

The simple reason for all this FM discussion, is the lack of a "time limit" on  the engine of the Yak-1 and the exististence of severe "time limits" on the engines of the Fw 190 and Bf 109 F-4.

 

Now one can argue wether or not the M-105 of the Yak-1 (and LaGG-3) should have a "time limit" or if the other planes "time limit" is way too strict. 

 

Just comparing the maximum continous power of the DB601-E, DB605-A and M-105 PF in BoS (just for comparison sake, the BMW 801 cannot really be compared, but the effect of those "time limit" limitations and what this means for the Fw 190 should become clear enough):

 

Boost:

DB601-E : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

DB605-A : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

M-105 PF: 1.45 ATA / 1100 mmHg

 

Power output:

DB601-E : ~1050 hp

DB605-A : ~1065 hp

M-105 PF: ~1240 hp

 

Regardless of what pilot handbooks say (or don't, see DB601-E in Bf 109 F-4 limitation), does this really make sense to anyone?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Matt

[303_Kwiatek]

The simple reason for all this FM discussion, is the lack of a "time limit" on  the engine of the Yak-1 and the exististence of severe "time limits" on the engines of the Fw 190 and Bf 109 F-4.

 

Now one can argue wether or not the M-105 of the Yak-1 (and LaGG-3) should have a "time limit" or if the other planes "time limit" is way too strict. 

 

Just comparing the maximum continous power of the DB601-E, DB605-A and M-105 PF in BoS (just for comparison sake, the BMW 801 cannot really be compared, but the effect of those "time limit" limitations and what this means for the Fw 190 should become clear enough):

 

Boost:

DB601-E : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

DB605-A : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

M-105 PF: 1.45 ATA / 1100 mmHg

 

Power output:

DB601-E : ~1050 hp

DB605-A : ~1065 hp

M-105 PF: ~1240 hp

 

Regardless of what pilot handbooks say (or don't, see DB601-E in Bf 109 F-4 limitation), does this really make sense to anyone?

 

Nope.

 

For me nonsense is that Fw 190 A-3 in BOS climb rate is below German official specifications comparing to all other planes in winter conditions.

RL data e.x. for Yak-1 69 series and Fw 190 show that A-3 got similar climb rate at 1.32 Ata like Yak-1 at full power but at full power 1.42 Ata emergency A-3 should outclimb Yak-1 which is not possible in BOS actually.  Not mentions about excessive maximum dive speeds all russian planes, excessive roll rates of Lagg-3 and La-5, excessive maximum speed at higher alts for Yak-1 ( 109 F-4 too). 

 

Forgot about Yak-1 full flaps circus.

 

If these issues would be ever fixed we would have at least some historical performacne of these planes.  As it is now we got balanced game.

Edited October 7, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[SR-F_Winger]

Nope.

 

For me nonsense is that Fw 190 A-3 in BOS climb rate is below German official specifications comparing to all other planes in winter conditions.

RL data e.x. for Yak-1 69 series and Fw 190 show that A-3 got similar climb rate at 1.32 Ata like Yak-1 at full power but at full power 1.42 Ata emergency A-3 should outclimb Yak-1 which is not possible in BOS actually.  Not mentions about excessive maximum dive speeds all russian planes, excessive roll rates of Lagg-3 and La-5, excessive maximum speed at higher alts for Yak-1 ( 109 F-4 too). 

 

Forgot about Yak-1 full flaps circus.

 

If these issues would be ever fixed we would have at least some historical performacne of these planes.  As it is now we got balanced game.

amen. until it gets inproved there is no more money from me most likely. I am totally demotivated right now and am not having fun with the game.

[LukeFF]

Nope.

 

For me nonsense is that Fw 190 A-3 in BOS climb rate is below German official specifications comparing to all other planes in winter conditions.

RL data e.x. for Yak-1 69 series and Fw 190 show that A-3 got similar climb rate at 1.32 Ata like Yak-1 at full power but at full power 1.42 Ata emergency A-3 should outclimb Yak-1 which is not possible in BOS actually. Not mentions about excessive maximum dive speeds all russian planes, excessive roll rates of Lagg-3 and La-5, excessive maximum speed at higher alts for Yak-1 ( 109 F-4 too).

 

Forgot about Yak-1 full flaps circus.

 

If these issues would be ever fixed we would have at least some historical performacne of these planes. As it is now we got balanced game.

(Cough) forum rule #18 (cough)

[LLv24_Zami]

The simple reason for all this FM discussion, is the lack of a "time limit" on  the engine of the Yak-1 and the exististence of severe "time limits" on the engines of the Fw 190 and Bf 109 F-4.

 

Now one can argue wether or not the M-105 of the Yak-1 (and LaGG-3) should have a "time limit" or if the other planes "time limit" is way too strict. 

 

Just comparing the maximum continous power of the DB601-E, DB605-A and M-105 PF in BoS (just for comparison sake, the BMW 801 cannot really be compared, but the effect of those "time limit" limitations and what this means for the Fw 190 should become clear enough):

 

Boost:

DB601-E : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

DB605-A : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg

M-105 PF: 1.45 ATA / 1100 mmHg

 

Power output:

DB601-E : ~1050 hp

DB605-A : ~1065 hp

M-105 PF: ~1240 hp

 

Regardless of what pilot handbooks say (or don't, see DB601-E in Bf 109 F-4 limitation), does this really make sense to anyone?

 

No, it doesn`t make sense.