Unit Information and Czar for PWCG

[707shap_Srbin]

[Dutchvdm]

Personal opinion not related to Paul's project:

 

Having a correct historical basis is the fundament on which gameplay can work. Yeah, I'm a stickler for details and having wrong units or wrong aircraft for the operation is detracting pretty much all of the immersion a campaign can generate.

 

I agree with you on this one when it comes to usage of planes and squads. But when it comes to unit locations i think we can be a little open minded. There are certain limitation like map size you just can't ignore. It would be a shame to exclude important units from the game just because there airfield is +/-  100 km outside the map borders. 

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Grtz Martijn

[Dutchvdm]

For location information this might help.

 

- KG27 II

 

5.42 - 7.42 Stalino   He 111H 7.42 - 10.42 Kursk-Ost   He 111H 10.42 - 20.12.42 Millerowo   He 111H 20.12.42 - 1.43 Urasoff   He 111H 1.43 - 1.43 Nowotscherkassk   He 111H

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg27.htm

 

- KG55 II

 

14.7.42 - 3.8.42 Kramatorskaja   He 111H 3.8.42 - 25.8.42 Samorsk (Crimea)   He 111H 25.8.42 - 27.12.42 Morosowskaja   He 111H 27.12.42 - 3.2.43 Nowotscherkask   He 111H

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg55.htm

[Brano]

Well,such campaign generator will always be semi-historical.Thats OK with me.If someone wants total realistic campaign,he would have to take logbooks of all units for given ToE and make chain of predefined missions with predefined results.Which is kind of contradicting and would serve more as a documentary film script rather then fun to play campaign.

So as close as possible in terms of historical accuracy,yes.Total history match,no,not necessary at all.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Found this so far about the battle. Click on it so you can zoom to read. I hope it can helps.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2015 by =[Coffin]=Gielow

[PatrickAWlson]

I went with the information provided by Tatarenko.  i used a subset of the units that he provided and added a non historical FW190 unit to get all plane types represented.  The  units produce a nice mix of aircraft and at first glance (testing will demonstrate) seem to produce a nice density on the map.  

 

Thanks to all who provided input.

[LukeFF]

Pat, not sure if you got it, but this is what I compiled from my sources. It stretches back to September 1942:

 

Stalingrad Aircraft Order of Battle.zip

 

 

[Jason_Williams]

The initial build of PWCG will only have some select units. The overall information was too overwhelming to parse and send to Pat during Alpha. They will be included in future builds after initial release.

 

Jason

[Dutchvdm]

That sounds like a smart move. First cover the basics and then move on to more content. 

[PatrickAWlson]

I have found there to be plenty of units for the Stalingrad front.  Six fighter squadrons each.  For the Germans 1 FW190, 1 Me109G2, and four Me109 F4.  For the Russians two each of Lagg-3, Lagg-5, and Yak-1.  Four Stuka squadrons.  Six He-111 squadrons.  Six IL2 squadrons.  Four PE2 squadrons.  There are plenty of planes in the air  Amazing to think that there were even more than that crammed into such a small area..

 

Thanks to all that posted and especially Tatarenko for the clear order of battle in a very easy to consume format.

Edited October 14, 2015 by PatrickAWlson

[Brano]

Hi Patrick,

For VVS you should use IAP/BAP/ShAP (air regiments) as basic unit pilot is attached to. Now you use IADs and BADs which are larger organisational units comprising of several IAP/BAP.

[LLv24_Zami]

Hi Patrick,

For VVS you should use IAP/BAP/ShAP (air regiments) as basic unit pilot is attached to. Now you use IADs and BADs which are larger organisational units comprising of several IAP/BAP.

 

I was thinking about same thing but I thought it was on purpose. How many planes exactly one IAP and IAD did contain?

[Brano]

There was a big reorganisation in august 1941,after initial heavy losses of Barbarossa.Originaly,IAP had 62 a/c = 4 escadrills with 15 a/c each + 2 staff a/c (zveno).

 

After reorganisation it had 20 a/c = 2 escadrills,9 planes each+2 staff planes

 

Air division could comprise of several IAPs. 3-5 was most common.

 

next levels were Air Corps and Air Armies ( 8.VA VVS over Stalingrad for our scenario,with 16. and 17.VA for Uranus operation)

[LLv24_Zami]

There was a big reorganisation in august 1941,after initial heavy losses of Barbarossa.Originaly,IAP had 62 a/c = 4 escadrills with 15 a/c each + 2 staff a/c (zveno).

 

After reorganisation it had 20 a/c = 2 escadrills,9 planes each+2 staff planes

 

Air division could comprise of several IAPs. 3-5 was most common.

 

next levels were Air Corps and Air Armies ( 8.VA VVS over Stalingrad for our scenario,with 16. and 17.VA for Uranus operation)

 

So an soviet air division is more or less equivalent to a german geschwader in terms of planes in 1942 and 43 that is.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Zami

[Brano]

Yes, IAD vs JG is kind of comparable.

My point was about ''home'' unit,which was for soviet pilot its air regiment.For german pilot it was Gruppe.Because IAD could have several IAPs that were transferred in an out of it,depending on situation on frontline.Same for german Gruppen.One JG could have 2 of them stationed near each other,but 3rd could be on completly different part of the front,often even in different theatre of operations.

Regiments and Gruppen were basic tactical units of both airforces.

As example,Pokryshkin was commander of 9.GIAD towards the end of the war,but he reffered to 16.GIAP as his ''home unit''.

[LLv24_Zami]

Yes, IAD vs JG is kind of comparable.

My point was about ''home'' unit,which was for soviet pilot its air regiment.For german pilot it was Gruppe.Because IAD could have several IAPs that were transferred in an out of it,depending on situation on frontline.Same for german Gruppen.One JG could have 2 of them stationed near each other,but 3rd could be on completly different part of the front,often even in different theatre of operations.

Regiments and Gruppen were basic tactical units of both airforces.

As example,Pokryshkin was commander of 9.GIAD towards the end of the war,but he reffered to 16.GIAP as his ''home unit''.

 

Agreed, a proper unit for soviet pilots would be IAP/BAP/ShAP. I hope it will be corrected in later revisions 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Zami

[PatrickAWlson]

That was my mistake ... D vs P.  The intent was always the smaller squadron size,  The change is as simple as changing the unit name text.  If I have regimental units can anybody give me a corresponding squadron?

[LukeFF]

 

 

If I have regimental units can anybody give me a corresponding squadron?

 

Soviet Units didn't explicitly name their squadrons, i.e., they were all just generic 1st Escadrille, 2nd Escadrille, etc.  

[Warhamm]

That was my mistake ... D vs P.  The intent was always the smaller squadron size,  The change is as simple as changing the unit name text.  If I have regimental units can anybody give me a corresponding squadron?

Aviation division consist of many aviation polks (regiments). For example 8th Aviation Division consist of:

 

15th fighter regiment.

31th fighter regiment.

46th fighter regiment.

61th attack regiment.

121th fighter regiment.

175th attack regiment.

240th fighter regiment.

402th fighter regiment.

728th fighter regiment.

 

• So russian air division is like luftwaffe squadron, but sometimes mixed. You need to figure with polks (regiments).

[csThor]

Actually, no the soviet division cannot be compared to any german unit size, at least not without cutting some serious corners. In fact it's closest "sibling" on the german side could be the Fliegerkorps which contained multiple Gruppen (roughly comparable to a soviet regiment of 1942). Both the AD and the Fliegerkorps could contain various types of units for "multi-purpose" operations or they could be specialized (i.e. the Fighter Air Division for air defense in the VVS or the later specialzed role of IV. Fliegerkorps as night-bomber corps on the Eastern Front for the Luftwaffe in 1943/44).

 

For the campaign the only level that makes sense is IMO that of Regiment and Gruppe as both contained 2 (VVS) and 3 (Luftwaffe) subordinated squadrons and were specialized on one specific role flying the same type/family of aircraft.

[PatrickAWlson]

Got this off the internet.  Is this correct?

 

zveno = a flight of 3/4 planes

eskadrilla = a squadron of 10-15 planes
polk = a air regiment of 3 or more eskadrilles

 

If yes then I need to organize by eskadrilla, just as the Germans are organized by geschwader.  The unit name would be something like x eskadrilla y Polk

 

There are limitations as to what PWCG can do.  It is centered around the squadron and not a larger unit.  This still makes sense because I know that in the case of  the Germans geschwader within a gruppe were often deployed separately and had different equipment.  In one case (JG26) there was a time when one geschwader was actually on the eastern front while the other two were in the west.  

 

In the Russian case the regiments were uniformly equipped.  Not sure if they were always deployed together.  At any rate, I still need to get to the squadron (eskadrilla?) level.

[Sim]

Speaking of fighters, during the Battle of Stalingrad TOE 015/134 organization (3 eskadrilyas, 32 aircraft) was still relevant in the early summer battles, but most polks were under strength by that time to maintain that structure. Thus most common organisational VVS polk structure by that time was TOE 015/174 (2 eskadrilyas, 20 aircraft). Around october/november, just before the build up for the counter-offensive, some polks were organized/reorganized on the new larger TOE 015/284 (3 eskadrilyas, 32 aircraft).

 

Keep in mind that around 60 different fighter aviation polks took part in Battle of Stalingrad.. and it was not uncommon for them to change divisions and for divisions to be moved/attached to other air armies or corps.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Sim

[PatrickAWlson]

lol - I just need some names

 

I am not going to recreate all of the complexities of WWII an more than I could WWI.  But I do want to come reasonably close with unit names that were at least present at Stalingrad.

 

For all of that I do appreciate the history lessons.  I might not be able to recreate it perfectly but it is always fun to learn.

[Brano]

Hi Patrick,

 

If time allows me,I will do some research.There is one russian site were there are some usefull infos about Air regiments = Aviacionny Polk,but I have to take a look at home.

VVS units in CG should be organised by Air Regiments (having 2 or 3 escadrills does not matter)

 

Exp. for P-40E regiments participating in BoS 

 

126.IAP (Istrebitelny aviacionny polk = fighter air regiment) was shortly part of 268.IAD from 28.8.1942.Equipped with P-40E.Operational time one week,after that completly wiped out and sent back to reequip with La-5.Airfield Solodovka or near around.

 

731.IAP PVO of Stalingrad also equipped with P-40E in around same time with airfield base at Solodovka (eastern bank of Volga almost at the edge of the game map) part of 102.IAD PVO

[migmadmarine]

Will there be any any German allied units to play as? Saw some nice looking Romanian Emil skins in the skin thread, could be cool to get to fly with them at some point. 

[PatrickAWlson]

Only Germans and Russians in release 1

[Swinder36]

Got this off the internet.  Is this correct?

 

zveno = a flight of 3/4 planes

eskadrilla = a squadron of 10-15 planespolk = a air regiment of 3 or more eskadrilles

 

If yes then I need to organize by eskadrilla, just as the Germans are organized by geschwader.  The unit name would be something like x eskadrilla y Polk

 

There are limitations as to what PWCG can do.  It is centered around the squadron and not a larger unit.  This still makes sense because I know that in the case of  the Germans geschwader within a gruppe were often deployed separately and had different equipment.  In one case (JG26) there was a time when one geschwader was actually on the eastern front while the other two were in the west.  

 

In the Russian case the regiments were uniformly equipped.  Not sure if they were always deployed together.  At any rate, I still need to get to the squadron (eskadrilla?) level.

I think I should clarify this. Here is the US WWII organisation (as a reference) with the Russian and German equivalents:

 

Wing - IAD - Geschwader (e.g JG 53)

Group - IAP - Gruppen (e.g. III/JG53)

Squadron - Eskradilla - Staffel

Flight - Zveno - Schwarm

Element - ? - Rotte

 

I hope it helps. I have always loved your work, Pat.

[Castro]

Element - ? - Rotte

 

 

 

Element - Para - Rotte

[Dutchvdm]

Hi Patrick,

 

In release notes topic for PWCG i mentioned the JABO unit Schlachtgeschwader 1. What kind of info do we need? In the following link the airfield locations are shown.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

 

It was a JABO unit. So i think you can use in the same way as the ZG unit's.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Grt Martijn

[PatrickAWlson]

Hi Patrick,

 

In release notes topic for PWCG i mentioned the JABO unit Schlachtgeschwader 1. What kind of info do we need? In the following link the airfield locations are shown.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

 

It was a JABO unit. So i think you can use in the same way as the ZG unit's.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Grt Martijn

 

I have everything in place except for the airfields.  Tanks for that information.  By necessity airfield assignment is never perfect, but this will help me to get as close as possible.

[Dutchvdm]

That sounds great!

 

Thnx

 

Grt Martijn

[LukeFF]

I'm currently in the process with helping Pat add more squadrons to the map. To that end, what airfields did the Italians use in this area? I know of Voroshilovgrad, but that's it. 

Hi Patrick,

 

In release notes topic for PWCG i mentioned the JABO unit Schlachtgeschwader 1. What kind of info do we need? In the following link the airfield locations are shown.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

 

It was a JABO unit. So i think you can use in the same way as the ZG unit's.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Grt Martijn

 

I've added I./Sch.G.1 to the map.  It looks like II. Gruppe can also be added.

Edited January 18, 2016 by LukeFF

[150GCT_Veltro]

Italians, 21GCT (Gruppo Autonomo Caccia Terrestre) Macchi 202.

Edited January 19, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[LukeFF]

Italians, 21GCT (Gruppo Autonomo Caccia Terrestre) Macchi 202.

 

Thanks!

[LukeFF]

So, as part of my ongoing work with the app's squadron's file, I am looking for detailed information about 16th Air Army, in particular from August 1942 through January 1943. Does anyone have detailed information about the airfields and aircraft they used?

[Juri_JS]

So, as part of my ongoing work with the app's squadron's file, I am looking for detailed information about 16th Air Army, in particular from August 1942 through January 1943. Does anyone have detailed information about the airfields and aircraft they used?

For aircraft numbers and types of VVS Air Armies take a look at this page:

http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_3/index.html

 

Here's the list for 19 November 1942:

http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_3/3.108.html

 

There are two numbers shown for all aircraft types. The first is the number of planes on the frontline, the number below shows reserve aircraft.

[LukeFF]

For aircraft numbers and types of VVS Air Armies take a look at this page:

http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_3/index.html

 

Here's the list for 19 November 1942:

http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_3/3.108.html

 

There are two numbers shown for all aircraft types. The first is the number of planes on the frontline, the number below shows reserve aircraft.

 

Thanks! That's a good start.

[Juri_JS]

For my own research I am also often using this side:
http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/main.dat

It contains brief histories for most VVS units (Air Armies, Divisions, Regiments, etc.). I am mostly using it to see which regiments were part of an air division at a certain time. Sometimes you can also find information on bases and aircraft types.

[LukeFF]

For my own research I am also often using this side:

http://allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi/sssr/struct/main.dat

 

It contains brief histories for most VVS units (Air Armies, Divisions, Regiments, etc.). I am mostly using it to see which regiments were part of an air division at a certain time. Sometimes you can also find information on bases and aircraft types.

 

Thanks!

[kraut1]

Hi Jason,

I would like flying the FW190-A3 in PWCG / Moscow in autumn 1942:

in "Osprey, FW190 Aces of the Russian Front" I found on Page 12:

In October, with the onset of winter, I./JG51 moved south again, this time to the Rzhev-Vyazma salient ...

Could you please add this plane type for this unit / time to PWCG.

Best regards