Jump to content

This is where we will discuss PWCG for BOS


Recommended Posts

  • 1CGS

Hello everyone,

 

This sub-forum is where we will discuss PWCG for BOS by Pat Wilson. There is still a ways to go on this project, but it is progressing. If we need anything from the community I will ask for it in this area of the forum. There are many bits of info and content the community may be able to help out with during development and after initial release.

 

You can learn more about PWCG for BOS by reading the following link and watching the included video.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19183-what-pat-wilson-campaign-generator-bos/

 

Jason

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 10
Link to post
Share on other sites

PWCG is a career mode.  It has been under development since 2009, starting with RoF and then moving to BoS and FC.  PWCG offers unrivaled variation in missions for Great Battles series of flight simulators.  When you create a PWCG campaign you create a small world where things happen with and without you.

 

Enemy flights move without being on the map.  Years ago I developed the concept of virtual waypoints.  This allows AI flights to move along their mission path without spawning.  Enemy flights are not just sitting in a spot waiting for you to come to them.  You always have to go to the action - it never comes to you.  No surprises.  In PWCG they come to you, all without consuming significant resources until they spawn.  Friendly to save the day?  Enemy to finish you off?  A bomber flight that represents a new opportunity?  You don't know.  Even I don't know what my own missions will produce.

 

With PWCG every mission is based on ground activity, so every mission is tied to the world.  You can feel that.  Planes don't just conveniently appear for you to shoot at.  They are doing something.  PWCG ground activity includes small battles, large battles with upwards of 50 tanks, trains, transport convoys, river and sea shipping, and more.  In the battles one side is really attacking the other.  They are not just targets.  They are trying to do something.

 

PWCG supports night missions.  The night witches are a dedicated night squadron.  Other units may receive night missions at various times.

 

PWCG tracks every pilot and every airplane.  A complex human and aircraft replacement algorithm transitions replacements into a depot and then to squadrons.  Delays in replacement are explicitly coded.  The result is that temporary shortages are felt.  

 

AI pilots improve over time.  This applies to all AI pilots, not just your squadron mates.  Losing a good pilot causes him to be replaced with a raw replacement.

 

There is a world outside of your missions.   This is one of the most complex aspects of PWCG.  When you submit a combat report the whole world turns.  AI pilots not involved in the mission go through simulated activity, so they might score a victory or be killed without being in your mission.   When you go on leave the same algorithm is is used to simulate activity while you are gone.  The rate of losses has a lot of detail behind it.  Some unit types incur greater losses than others.  Inexperienced pilots are more likely to be lost than experienced ones.  Lots of data goes into this.  I have written a simulator that tells me how any pilots are lost over the course of a campaign and compared that with historical results to ensure that it is realistic.

 

PWCG has a claim system that allows you to have some control over the victories that you are awarded.  If you decide that you don't want a victory (it crashed well after contact) then just don't claim it.  You can also help out your AI mates by not claiming - PWCG will give the victory to them instead.

 

PWCG allows you to have multiple pilots active in a campaign.  Need a break from being a fighter jock?  Create a dive bomber persona and do that for awhile.  This is really useful for somebody like me that wants to do these other activities periodically but really enjoys flying one thing (in my case fighters) most.  I can take a break from my usual and do some of the other things the sim offers without committing to a full career.

 

PWCG support both cooperative and competitive multiplayer modes.  The missions are coop missions but the pilots need not be on the same side.  Therefore people can fly with or against each other in a campaign setting.

 

Playing PWCG in a cooperative mode allows you to fly a full career with your friends.  Instead of just missions you are part of a world.  Fly in the same squadron or a different one.  You can fly fighters while your friend flies ground attack.  Any combination is possible.  You and your friends can have multiple personas so, within a career, you can fly as a fighter pilot one mission and an attack pilot the next.

 

Playing PWCG in a competitive mode allows you to fly a full career while fighting with or against your friends.  You are still part of a world.  All of your friends will be in the mission with your own things to do.  You may meet or you may not.  Anything is possible.  This is great for squadron wars or just for groups of people that want human competition in the scope of a campaign.

 

PWCG offers features such as journals where you can do write ups of your missions, squadron logs that are updated for every squadron in the PWCG world, intel reports and maps that show the current situation, and many other things. 

 

PWCG handles medals, promotions, events, and replacements in a realistic manner. Not just for you but for every pilot in the PWCG world.

In the end I am algorithms guy.  Most of PWCG's best parts are behind the scenes, not up front.  That level of detail should translate into an experience that just feels right.  You should not even know why exactly, but your experience should feel like you are an active participant in a book about a WWII pilot - with you as the pilot. 

 

Attention to detail:

Allied and Axis medal criteria are historically accurate.  The manner in which medals are awarded is different.

Skins are assignable.

You can fly with and against historical aces

Out of mission victory and loss rates are calibrated with history in mind.

Player flights are highly editable.

Night witches are crewed by women.

Ground units are really fighting each other.

 

Willingness to deal with limitations:

There is no Ju87B.  There were Ju87s at Moscow.  PWCG just uses the Ju87D.  perfect?  No.  better than no Ju87?  Yes.

This is also true of many other planes.  I will use what I have to create the best experience in preference to simply saying no because it is not quite perfect.

 

Continuous improvement.

I release small updates every week or two.  Larger release happen regularly.  I write code for PWCG almost every day.

Edited by PatrickAWlson
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 4
  • Upvote 13
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the news Pat! Glad to hear about your progress. Thanks once again for doing this, it is a huge favor for single players like me. And there are a lot of us. :salute:

 

Nice to see that also offliners understand the value of PWCG to this title. It benefits all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of progress on bombing missions today.  They are starting to look good. 

 

PWCG is generating effective missions right now.  Lots of play testing will be needed to work out the kinks and get the mix right.  I have been making a lot effort in transforming the missions from WWI to WWII.  Higher altitudes, faster speeds, longer distances, different mix of mission types.

 

Dive bombing is next.

  • Upvote 13
Link to post
Share on other sites

Dive bombing is one of the biggest problems for me when building missions, because AI planes will only drop one bomb per dive and  will often crash into the ground when they try to pull out of a dive with some of the bombs still attached. I hope you can find a solution for the problem or maybe convince the devs to fix this behaviour.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of progress on bombing missions today.  They are starting to look good. 

 

PWCG is generating effective missions right now.  Lots of play testing will be needed to work out the kinks and get the mix right.  I have been making a lot effort in transforming the missions from WWI to WWII.  Higher altitudes, faster speeds, longer distances, different mix of mission types.

 

Dive bombing is next.

Keep in mind that only ventral payload can be used for dive bombing for PE2 and IL2. Bombs in hatch will not drop in dive bombing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember that my code just builds missions.  I can do  my best to design around AI issues but it is not within my ability to fix them.  With that in mind the feedback is appreciated. 

 

I had not intended to do dive bombing for the IL2 or PE2.  Was not even aware that they were used that way.  

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of progress on bombing missions today.  They are starting to look good. 

 

PWCG is generating effective missions right now.  Lots of play testing will be needed to work out the kinks and get the mix right.  I have been making a lot effort in transforming the missions from WWI to WWII.  Higher altitudes, faster speeds, longer distances, different mix of mission types.

 

Dive bombing is next.

:cool:

Link to post
Share on other sites

First signs of life in a full PWCG mission.  I am flying an HE111 on a high altitude recon mission.  As we cross the front there are planes below.  IL2s going about their business.  Good, they won't bother me.  I cycle through some of the units and I see Russian armored cars attacking a German position.  The IL2s are there to support the Russian assault.  A minute later a group of ME109s appears.  A call on the radio indicates that they are going to engage the IL2s.

 

At this time the whole sim slows to about 1/4 speed as my poor old 6 year old computer is overwhelmed ... and that is on low density settings.

 

Anyhow, life promises to to interesting, especially for those with the horse power to handle it.

  • Upvote 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds brilliant! Thanks for the updates :)

 

Is the PWCG going to use premium planes also? I mean La-5 and FW-190.

 

 

Remember that my code just builds missions.  I can do  my best to design around AI issues but it is not within my ability to fix them.  With that in mind the feedback is appreciated. 

 

I had not intended to do dive bombing for the IL2 or PE2.  Was not even aware that they were used that way.  

 

Pe-2 has dive brakes so I think it was used to both level and dive bombing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If it is anything like PWCG from ROF you will be able to select which aircraft you own.

 

Yes, I would imagine same system here. But I was thinking about the fact that Fw-190 wasn`t in Stalingrad battle afaik. La-5 was in limited service, I`m not 100% sure. So is Fw-190 dropped out because of that.

Edited by Zami
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did find the FW190 at Stalingrad with I JG51.  Not sure how accurate that info is but I'm going with it for now.

 

For starters (as in alpha release) the PE2 will have the same mission profile as the HE111.  I will try to complete the profile by the time of release,  Ju88 also has that mixed profile, so developing the capability to handle it will be useful.

 

initial release will be Stalingrad only and will not handle BoM map or aircraft.  In subsequent releases I will not only add new aircraft but I will also refactor order of battle on older battles to incorporate new planes.  For instance, the Italians were at Stalingrad, so maybe the Macchi was there?  Not sure on that one but you get the idea.

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that only ventral payload can be used for dive bombing for PE2 and IL2. Bombs in hatch will not drop in dive bombing.

I did a mistake. The IL2 do not perform dive bombing, but PE2 does.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did find the FW190 at Stalingrad with I JG51.  Not sure how accurate that info is but I'm going with it for now.

 

For starters (as in alpha release) the PE2 will have the same mission profile as the HE111.  I will try to complete the profile by the time of release,  Ju88 also has that mixed profile, so developing the capability to handle it will be useful.

 

initial release will be Stalingrad only and will not handle BoM map or aircraft.  In subsequent releases I will not only add new aircraft but I will also refactor order of battle on older battles to incorporate new planes.  For instance, the Italians were at Stalingrad, so maybe the Macchi was there?  Not sure on that one but you get the idea.

 

Sounds good!

 

About the Italians, I found this from another forum:

 

Eastern Front operations

In May 1942, the 22° Gruppo Caccia, that had reached its operational limit, was replaced by the newly formed 21° Gruppo Autonomo C.T. composed of 356ª, 382ª, 361ª and 386ª Squadriglia. This unit, commanded by Maggiore (Major) Ettore Foschini, brought new C.202s and 18 new Macchi C.200 fighters.[43] In August 1942, at the beginning of the Soviet offensive they were deployed at the Stalino, Lughansk, Kantemirovka and Millerovo airfields, fighting against the Red Army positions on the east Don river during October–November 1942. the fighters operated in adverse climate conditions (40° to 45° below zero and heavy snow storms) while under heavy Russian fighter-bomber harassment. Under these circumstances, 21° Gruppo - which had 17 C.202s on strength - was rather moderate in deploying the C.202s. Only a total of 17 missions were flown with Folgores on the Eastern Front during a four-month period. The C.202s were forced to escort C.200s alongside Fiat BR.20Ms and Caproni Ca.311s in attacks against Soviet columns, while facing great numbers of new VVS' fighters. The C.202s also escorted CANT Z.1007bis in reconnaissance missions and German transport aircraft. One of these missions was the escort to Junkers Ju 52s flying to Stalingrad, on 11 December 1942, during which Tenente Pilota Gino Lionello was shot down and had to bail out from his Folgore.

After the abandonment of advanced airfields between December 1942 - January 1943 at Voroshilovgrad, Stalino and Tscerkow, the Italian air units operated in defensive actions against a more potent Soviet air offensive, mainly using Ilyushin IL-2s Shturmoviks and Petlyakov Pe-2s. In March 1943, the Corpo Aereo Italiano was detached to Odessa airbase joining Reggiane Re. 2000 Héja I of the Hungarian MKHL 1 and 2/1 Vadászszázad and IAR 80C and Bf 109E/G of Romanian FARR 4 and 5 detached at same base and Saki (Crimea) in a holding action against the V-Vs armada of 2,000 aircraft, at a time when Axis air forces only countered with 300 operative aircraft with very small quantities of fuel, munitions and equipment.

The last effective operation of Corpo Aereo Italiano in Russia occurred on 17 January 1943, when one mixed formation of 25 surviving Macchi fighters (out of a remaining total of 30 C.200s and nine C.202s) attacked Red Army armored and motorized infantry columns to support German and Italian units encircled in Millerovo.

Edited by Zami
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did find the FW190 at Stalingrad with I JG51.  Not sure how accurate that info is but I'm going with it for now.

That's not correct. I./JG51 flew Fw-190 during this time but was based far away from Stalingrad. The unit fought in the Battle of Velikie Luki.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While its true that the Fw 190 wasn't there, I would still be in favor of seeing it included in the career mode. It should be rare though, compared to the 109. But it would be a bit of a shame not making use of it at all.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

My suggestion for the FW 190 and future planes that were not into the fighting is to make a airfield in the rear area of the map where a player can be relocated. There he can try aircrafts that his unit proberbly will have to fly later on in the war. We could even let him try captured aircrafts there so he learns more about his enamy. Such things were done in WW2 so it would be not ahistorical.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Great news.

 

Pat, perhaps some of my developments for IL2CareerGenerator will be useful to your work . I have a collection of about 500 photos of soviet and german pilots. Full list of objects for logs. Photos and information on awards. Information of many detachment and their airfields. If something of this will be helpful i will share it.

  • Upvote 10
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Great news.
 
Pat, perhaps some of my developments for IL2CareerGenerator will be useful to your work . I have a collection of about 500 photos of soviet and german pilots. Full list of objects for logs. Photos and information on awards. Information of many detachment and their airfields. If something of this will be helpful i will share it.

 

 

Thanks.  Appreciate it.  Conversely, you are welcome to any of my resources.  You are probably much further ahead than I am but still, it's there for the asking.

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to level set expectations, the initial release will have:

Support for Stalingrad map only

Support for Stalingrad plane set only (Me109 F4, Me109 G2, FW1090 A3,LAGG 3, LAGG 5, Yak 1, PE2, He111, JU87 D3, IL2 M42)  

Missions types:

Patrol, intercept, escort, scramble, level bomb, dive bomb, ground attack.

Germans and Russians only

 

Support for aces limited to my ability to acquire information in a programatically usable form

Support for squadrons limited to same

Support for skins limited to same

What I mean by this is that I do not have the time to research and do the data entry for these things.  To the extent that I can get help I will add them.  

 

PWCG is very extensible so in the future anything is possible.  If there are dozens of aces in RoF then there are potentially hundreds in BoS.  Same with skins and squadrons.  There can be new mission types.  Spanish, Romanian, and Italian squadrons have all been mentioned.  These things are all possible at some point.  There are limitless opportunities but, unfortunately, limited time.  It becomes a matter of priorities.  

  • Upvote 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat the LA-5 was used a lot at Stalingrad (see the units thread) but the Fw190 never was. 

 

Please make it like the normal campaign that the player can choose it but you'll never see AI planes flying it. Seeing them over Stalingrad would be a real shame and detract from the game for me.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat the LA-5 was used a lot at Stalingrad (see the units thread) but the Fw190 never was. 

 

Please make it like the normal campaign that the player can choose it but you'll never see AI planes flying it. Seeing them over Stalingrad would be a real shame and detract from the game for me.

 

I agree with this, Pat.  If a player wants to pretend, I guess they should be able to outfit their flight with the FW190, but hopefully no 190's anywhere else in the skies over Stalingrad.

 

Thanks for everything you're doing!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1CGS

Ok this quickly turned into a mess. I locked the Ace and Skins thread until we first solve the issue of what Units we need. Need to take it step by step since it appears I will need to be the one to prepare the information for Pat.

 

Focus all energy on identifying what Units were in the Stalingrad theater, what planes and what bases they would have used. I need to turn this data into a spreadsheet and then into a format Pat can use.

 

Once have the units complete then we can go back to Aces and Skins since all else flows from the Units involved.

 

Jason

Link to post
Share on other sites

Patrick, how do you plan to move the front line? In the original campaign 5 episodes for winter offensive? Do you plan to do the same? 

 

Dont try to add many squadrons, aces and skins at first release. It's a lot of work, which can wait. We can play and test with about 10 squadrons at first time. Focus on mission generator. IMHO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...