The "shot" down principle

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

1946 encourages players to attempt landing

BoS encourages players to succeed at landing.

 

-snip-

 

I feel that the current system actually encourages you to bail en route to save yourself the virtual death.

 

There is no incentive in "attempting success" when there is the possibility that your gear will collapse after parking... You know... Getting "shot down."

Edited September 22, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[BraveSirRobin]

I would venture to state that the current system actually encourages you to bail en route to save yourself the virtual death.

 

Staying alive should be encouraged.

[DD_Arthur]

1946 encourages players to attempt landing

BoS encourages players to succeed at landing.

 

BoS is better.

 

Says the man who's never played 1946!    What are you using here, a quija board?  

 

Look, don't get me wrong I really like BoS.  I think this small, dedicated team have made enormous strides in getting this thing up and running in this timescale but it's o.k. to say there are things that can be improved.  This is one of them.  It's not a biggie but it certainly could be done better.  

 

IL2 1946 does do it better.......but you wouldn't know that.  What we have now is what was implemented for RoF more than six years ago.  One of my favourite RoF MP moments was flying the DH9 the day it was released.  I got shot up by one of the J5 guys.  I got the red mist and the engine started failing.  I got the message come up that I'd been shot down.

 

The plane continued in level flight, I got in the back seat and shot up my attacker. The message came up that I'd shot him down!

[SharpeXB]

I feel that the current system actually encourages you to bail en route to save yourself the virtual death.

 

There is no incentive in "attempting success" when there is the possibility that your gear will collapse after parking... You know... Getting "shot down."

It would be cool if BoS had chute failures like CoD to make you consider not using it. Most of the German pilots it seemed trusted their flying skill more than their parachutes. They also didn't want to become Russian POWs.

 

If the gear collapses chances are you landed too hard on it.

I had one of those episodes where I landed, taxied and shut down and then the whole plane collapsed. I don't think I was considered shot down. Probably because I'd shut down.

Says the man who's never played 1946! What are you using here, a quija board?

 

From the description given here it sounds like 1946 rewards you for wrecking your plane on the runway whereas BoS requires you to sucessfully land it.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

(A) It would be cool if BoS had chute failures like CoD to make you consider not using it. 

(B) If the gear collapses chances are you landed too hard on it.

 

-snip-

 

(A) Historical and unpredictable..? Entertaining. I agree entirely though I am sure you are being facetious... 

 

(B) Let's not have another one of those threads... Nobody needs to be presumptuously told that they are doing it wrong.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[SharpeXB]

(A) Historical and unpredictable..? Entertaining. I agree entirely though I am sure you are being facetious... 

No seriously. I liked doing the "Dead is Dead" Desastersoft campaign for CoD and having to consider that reality when ditching.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

No seriously. I liked doing the "Dead is Dead" Desastersoft campaign for CoD and having to consider that reality when ditching.

I think it sounds like fun lovely idea. I've also had my chute shot by flak, or other people; so it's not like it'll be a whole new animation or anything 

[VBF-12_Snake9]

People that have never played 46 will never know how much this game is lacking.  

 

 

Hopefully in time it will get there.  

[BraveSirRobin]

People that have never played 46 will never know how much this game is lacking.  

 

 

Hopefully in time it will get there.  

 

I played 46.  This is better.

[SKG51_robtek]

That says nothing about those games, but all about your expectations.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

That says nothing about those games, but all about your expectations.

 

OT

 

This is not a moan thread

[SharpeXB]

People that have never played 46 will never know how much this game is lacking.  

 

 

Hopefully in time it will get there.

 

BoS is lacking only if you consider quantity over quality.

[von_Tom]

Simple answer - change how YOU see the shot down message. 

 

If you get shot up, land and it credits a kill to your foe, so what?  If you shoot someone up, get a credit but they make it home, so what?  And if someone wants to bail rather than fly home, so what?  I think it's a bit lame but what's important for me is what I do and what my squad mates do, not what others do.

 

Even better, delete the key that shows you the scores.  Then try to make it home every singe sortie.

 

 

von Tom

 

ps  I get that some measure success by the kill/death ratio but if that's the case, keep a record in your head of what has actually taken place rather than what the game says.

 

pps FWIW with all the debate over how many kills the experts got, I never see the argument that they probably got even more counting those aircraft destroyed that weren't credited because they flew off and subsequently crashed out of sight, or were damaged sufficient to be scrapped.

Edited September 23, 2015 by von_Tom

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

ps FWIW with all the debate over how many kills the experts got, I never see the argument that they probably got even more counting those aircraft destroyed that weren't credited because they flew off and subsequently crashed out of sight, or were damaged sufficient to be scrapped.

 

Yes exactly they had criteria for claiming a kill and an airworthy aircraft flying away from a fight with damage doesn't meet it.

 

I agree that you can not look at the scores etc but as I've said already it's a bit of an immersion breaker to be granted kills 10-15 minutes later where you know full well you didn't earn it. Unfortunately in co-op missions where these kills are counted (using the in game scores is the only practical way) the scores do matter and it means that some poor guy who struggled back to base is counted as a kill and the flip side someone gets an ego boost they don't deserve. In that situation if you are the guy with the runway in sight, your engine cuts out but you land it perfectly but are counted as a kill it's hard to imagine that you would not be disappointed somewhat. 

 

The problem with this thread is there are people who think it's a moan thread rather than a discussion about certain game mechanics which might need a tweak. I don't think anyone can accuse me or Custard of disliking BOS, it's the best WW2 flight sim out there by miles and I love it.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Nikko

[BraveSirRobin]

That says nothing about those games, but all about your expectations.

 

I don't have any expectations for 46.  I didn't bother to load it on my new PC.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

It's just purely something that I would like to see in the sim. It's not a demand, it's not a moan. I'm not seething with anger about it.

 And I'm certainly not going to be grieving about it over a beer and a pork pie.

 

It would just be a "nice" feature. Here is the scenario, if your aircraft took "minimal" damage from an enemy aircraft but was perfectly flyable and you then spend 15 minutes getting it back to base. But guess what "you" pork the landing on you home airfield. That would be my fault (I haven't been "shot" down) I screwed up. Should it credited as a kill for another player? IMO no, It would be nice if it could be recorded as a crash landing.  

 

I don't know if it can be done within the programing? I'm not clever enough to know the answer and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[BraveSirRobin]

The problem with this thread is there are people who think it's a moan thread rather than a discussion about certain game mechanics which might need a tweak. I don't think anyone can accuse me or Custard of disliking BOS, it's the best WW2 flight sim out there by miles and I love it.

 

I don't think it's a "moan" thread for everyone.  The problem is that it's not possible to definitively determine if a plane was shot down.  Some people have different definitions for what "shot down" even means.  In some cases the definition is impossible to fit into an algorithm.  The BoS algorithm is pretty simple.  If you were damaged by the enemy and your engine is disabled you are shot down.  That gives victories to people who arguably deserve them, and it gives people a chance to get home without being considered shot down.  There are going to be flaws with any system, but this one is probably as good as any of them.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

I played 46.  This is better.

 

 

BoS is lacking only if you consider quantity over quality.

 

Gentlemen, for the game's sake I wish this was true.  I honestly do. 

 

My entire squad has shelved Bos at the moment and many went back to 1946, because it provides a squad so many more tools.  We haven't flown Bos in many months, although I check out each of the updates.  When the p40 drops I'll buy the add on, and maybe the summer maps will breath new life back into things.  I miss flying with my buddies.   

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I'm mostly OK with the points system but I really wish assists were worth more than they are. I will often fly around and get 5 assists in a sortie but no kills because someone else jumps in, sholder shoots..... This lack of points for assists makes people fly stupidly, following the target until they get the kill, reducing their tactical supiriortit...... which is stupid

[SharpeXB]

 My entire squad has shelved Bos at the moment and many went back to 1946, because it provides a squad so many more tools.  

 

Like I said, they're choosing quantity over quality. I'm not sure what tools 1946 has but they must be incredible to warrant the preference of a 9-year old game over this one.

I'm mostly OK with the points system but I really wish assists were worth more than they are. I will often fly around and get 5 assists in a sortie but no kills because someone else jumps in, sholder shoots..... This lack of points for assists makes people fly stupidly, following the target until they get the kill, reducing their tactical supiriortit...... which is stupid

I think this is why the "kill the engine and it's yours" factor is applied. It prevents players from mobbing defeated planes.

in il2 46 the sutained turn model is wrongly modeled bos fm is the first who properly model sustained turn ever

 

havent you noticed the less you pull the stick the more duels you win

You said this same thing about the Camel and D.VII in RoF. And you are wrong there too. There's more to air combat maneuvering than just pulling the stick more.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Getting a shot down message (kill of you are on the other side of the fence) while the aircraft is still airborne needs removing. Give people the intense feeling of trying to glide back to base/friendly territory instead of X has been shotdown by Y....you might as well just bail there and then to jump in another aircraft!

 

Getting a kill if an aircraft made it back to base and did a bad landing is equally ridiculous and I hope it is removed one day.

 

Seconded. 

[BraveSirRobin]

In RoF kills are sometimes awarded to dead pilots, and sometimes they are not.  It's not obvious what the differences are.  It may be random.

[Ace_Pilto]

I say leave it. People are less inclined to mindlessly chase and destroy dead aircraft to get a point on the scoreboard the way things are. 

 

If you made it back to base with a damaged plane and landed safely good for you, have a cookie. Next time do it in an undamaged plane with a victory or two.

[tailwheel]

BoS is lacking only if you consider quantity over quality.

I played a lot of 1946 before switching over to BOS. I wouldn't go back. but there are definitely things that 46 has over BOS, mostly regarding campaign play. But 46 had a lot of time and effort put into it while BOS is still young.

 

I'm a bit worried that campaign will get impossible to play once I get to level 9. I think there can be more enjoyable ways to up the ante for high level pilots than making super killer AI. BOS is beautiful to fly and fun to master. but campaign has lots of opportunity for growth. It's an awesome game and huge potential.

[tailwheel]

Like I said, they're choosing quantity over quality. I'm not sure what tools 1946 has but they must be incredible to warrant the preference of a 9-year old game over this one.

 

I think this is why the "kill the engine and it's yours" factor is applied. It prevents players from mobbing defeated planes.

You said this same thing about the Camel and D.VII in RoF. And you are wrong there too. There's more to air combat maneuvering than just pulling the stick more.

All the game has to do is attach a player id to each ordinance and when it does damage, the points count to the shooter. If the plane lands the shooter gets partial points. if the plane crashes and the pilot is not killed, more points. if the plane crashes and the pilot bites it, then full points. Then you'll get rewarded for doing damage and even more if the end result is an opponent out of action. Then when the target goes down, you dole out partial kills as appropriate. This means tracking a bit more data but since hits have to be calculated in play anyway, and projectiles tracked, I don't see adding another field to a bullet class's properties that much trouble.

Lots of work to do. PS. I am willing to pony up if the ROI is worth it and the dev crew is committed. After BOM is on my hard drive, of course :-) 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yesterday i was in fight against N-17 in Helb.d2 what happened that other guy in my team dived and shoot N-17 which i was fighting which looked like one bullet to the enemy engine before me. The N-17 was fine i fought him some time later damaged he's engine to point of he was licking fuel and making black smoke puffs then finally with me on his 6 o'clock shooting at him he crashed into river. Guess who was credited for this victory by the game? Guy who just fist damaged the engine and disengaged. It would like to see much better system than this.

[tailwheel]

I wonder if it would be worth ... and I'm making some assumptions...
the game knows what parts of a plane get hit, how much 'hit points' it has,  and who hits it, and if a plane catches fire... etc etc so.

each aircraft part gets a score value per hp done. then players do their damage and rack up points. so even if you don't get a kill you get ranking based on damage you did.

kills can be awarded by target destroyed =100% exp,  damaged but crash landed =50% exp,   damaged but not disabled  =25%

out and out kills awarded by pilots killed and/or plane wrecked.

the tally board would then include kills, damage done, wrecks etc.

Since the computer knows all outcomes, using WW2 kill criteria is moot. If it's really important to track kills like the WW2 guys did, then do it the way the real pilots did: verification by witnesses and manual logging.

 

Depends what is important. I would rather vote to put more dev resources into missions, gameplay, maps, and immersion than into leader board stats.

[KoN_]

A stat system like il-2 1946 Aces over Europe .

states will clear at the beginning of each month . Best stats system ive seen .

 

 

Personal stats

[Willy__]

 

 

A stat system like il-2 1946 Aces over Europe . states will clear at the beginning of each month . Best stats system ive seen .

 

There is.

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/pilots/?tour=2