The "shot" down principle

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm pretty sure they do. You just don't get a tic in the killed box on your side.

 

No, they don't.  If you can land your aircraft with the engine still running it does not count as a kill.  Break the engine and then it's a kill.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

See above

[SharpeXB]

I'm pretty sure they do. You just don't get a tic in the killed box on your side.

If I land when damaged and don't wreck it, I don't see a "shot down" message appear. In BoS or RoF. It doesn't show me as "shot down" on the stats page either.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

See above   

 

It's weird agreeing with you guys. We usually argue so vehemently.

Edited September 18, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[=CFC=Conky]

Well if you are the person who is shot up and have managed to land your crippled aircraft .. why should someone get credit for killing you?

 

True Bearcat, but then again, the shooter upper did win the fight   .

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

[DD_Arthur]

   Break the engine and then it's a kill.

 

This is the basis of the kill system in BoS.  The same as RoF.  This is how the DN engine does it at the moment.  Personally - yeah I'd like it to be more refined - but remember; two programmers, right?

[SharpeXB]

I think the Engine Dead = Kill is to prevent players crowding on a defeated plane trying to kill steal.

If you get the engine. It's yours and everyone can stop mobbing the victim.

In other words....

Edited September 18, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

I'd prefer the kill not to be granted until the aircraft has hit the ground

I think what would happen in that case is that the kill would be awarded to whomever hit the plane last before it hit the ground. So you could make a good attack and smoke someone's engine and then a kill stealer could just shoot it again while it was crashing and get credit. So the Engine Dead = Instant Kill prevents that.

Edited September 18, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

 Getting given a kill 15 minutes after I shot someone doesn't feel right...

There's certain damage that might take time to eventually down your opponent. Leaking fuel, damage that eventually fails an engine, structural damage which fails later during a maneuver. As well as the enemy attempting to land and crashing. All those would mean a delayed victory credit but it's still yours.

[Fern]

So if I'm taxing on my airfield for takeoff, someone strafes the airfield, damages my plane (not destroyed) and I "finish flight". I think it counts as an Air Kill? That to me should be a ground kill. Can anyone confirm?

 

I think what would happen in that case is that the kill would be awarded to whomever hit the plane last before it hit the ground. So you could make a good attack and smoke someone's engine and then a kill stealer could just shoot it again while it was crashing and get credit. So the Engine Dead = Instant Kill prevents that.

 

What if its a bomber and has two engines? One is in-op, but you cant still limp it back on the one good one.

 

Today I was flying Pe-2 doing ground attacks. AA takes out my number 1 engine. I struggle back and cant make it to the main airfields. I try to make the objective airfield (that we defend) for landing. As I make my approach, some guy that starts with a T and has three 8s tags me. I dont even make the runway, but I land fine. Then plane goes up in flames from Mr T's shots, blows up because I cant egress on the ground and he gets his "Air Kill"...I was already going down due to the AA and engine damage, yet Mr T's last shots scored him a kill...

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

There's certain damage that might take time to eventually down your opponent. Leaking fuel, damage that eventually fails an engine, structural damage which fails later during a maneuver. As well as the enemy attempting to land and crashing. All those would mean a delayed victory credit but it's still yours.

I take your point about victory credits but it would just be a nice feature IMO if after nursing your aircraft all the way back to your home field and as long as you put it on the deck (runway) without getting killed it counts as a crash landing or probable. I know this may be difficult to do but its just a personal wish and not a demand.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

I take your point about victory credits but it would just be a nice feature IMO if after nursing your aircraft all the way back to your home field and as long as you put it on the deck (runway) without getting killed it counts as a crash landing or probable. I know this may be difficult to do but its just a personal wish and not a demand.

Sure wasn't difficult for 46. Ten year old technology. ???

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Sure wasn't difficult for 46. Ten year old technology

I have to agree.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

So if I'm taxing on my airfield for takeoff, someone strafes the airfield, damages my plane (not destroyed) and I "finish flight". I think it counts as an Air Kill? That to me should be a ground kill. Can anyone confirm?

 

 

What if its a bomber and has two engines? One is in-op, but you cant still limp it back on the one good one.

 

Today I was flying Pe-2 doing ground attacks. AA takes out my number 1 engine. I struggle back and cant make it to the main airfields. I try to make the objective airfield (that we defend) for landing. As I make my approach, some guy that starts with a T and has three 8s tags me. I dont even make the runway, but I land fine. Then plane goes up in flames from Mr T's shots, blows up because I cant egress on the ground and he gets his "Air Kill"...I was already going down due to the AA and engine damage, yet Mr T's last shots scored him a kill...

It is who causes the higher percentage of damage as far as I can tell. Say AAA caused 30% and Mr T caused 31%, Mr T is gonna get the kill. I have had it go the other way on more occasions than I care to count. Hate those AAA "stealers!"

Edited September 21, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

I take your point about victory credits but it would just be a nice feature IMO if after nursing your aircraft all the way back to your home field and as long as you put it on the deck (runway) without getting killed it counts as a crash landing or probable. I know this may be difficult to do but its just a personal wish and not a demand.

When it says "crash landing" that doesn't mean another player gets credit for shooting you down. I think that only affects your own score. Yes I don't think you should get "crash landing" for diverting to another airfield. It's a score system from the campaign which doesn't maybe belong in MP

Sure wasn't difficult for 46. Ten year old technology. ???

I don't see how any other game can score it differently. You got hit, then you hit the ground. That means you've been shot down. The game can't tell if you hit the ground because you botched a landing or whatever other reason.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Have you played 46? You statement makes no sense if you have played 46. That game got so many things right, don't know why they didn't follow that example on all things. You statement confuses me.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Personally i get most of my kills by making the other guy crash, im not sure if id like to be awarded the kill though

What happens if his wheels fall off when landing?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

personally i get most of my kills by making the other guy crash, im not sure if id like to be awarded the kill though

 

Was this before or after your 10 year old system couldn't run the game..?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

For raaaid the wheels usually fall off as soon as he starts typing  

[SharpeXB]

Have you played 46? You statement makes no sense if you have played 46. That game got so many things right, don't know why they didn't follow that example on all things. You statement confuses me.

No I haven't played 1946. So I don't get how that's different or how it could be.

So in 1946 if you crash after another player shoots you, you're not shot down? That doesn't make sense.

Honestly the RoF/BoS system seems perfectly fine to me. Why split hairs over what's considered "shot down"? It doesn't matter so much. It's good to give the player incentive to land though.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

(A.) No I haven't played 1946. So I don't get how that's different or how it could be.

(B.) So in 1946 if you crash after another player shoots you, you're not shot down? That doesn't make sense.

(C.) Honestly the RoF/BoS system seems perfectly fine to me. Why split hairs over what's considered "shot down"? It doesn't matter so much. It's good to give the player incentive to land though.

 

(A.) 'Nuff said.

(B.) Makes perfect sense, actually.   If I crash than I haven't been "shot down" by an enemy aircraft... Rather, I have crashed.

(C.) Why split hairs over what's considered "shot down?" It matters quite a bit because it determines what incentive a player has to follow through with a landing.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[SharpeXB]

(B.) Makes perfect sense, actually.   If I crash than I haven't been "shot down" by an enemy aircraft... Rather, I have crashed.

 

If another player damaged your plane before it hit the ground, then that player shot you down.

 

(C.) Why split hairs over what's considered "shot down?" It matters quite a bit because it determines what incentive a player has to follow through with a landing.

The player does have an incentive to land in BoS because if you land despite damage to your plane you're not considered shot down.

 

Those are really obvious rules above so I'm not sure what's "wrong" with BoS in this regard.

[BraveSirRobin]

(C.) Why split hairs over what's considered "shot down?" It matters quite a bit because it determines what incentive a player has to follow through with a landing.

 

It matters quite a bit in BoS.  If you don't crash then the other guy does not get a kill.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

"Academic Douglas Walton used the following example of a fallacious circular argument:

Wellington is in New Zealand.

Therefore, Wellington is in New Zealand.

He notes that, although the argument is deductively valid, it cannot prove that Wellington is in New Zealand because it contains no evidence that is distinct from the conclusion. "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

 

So much of it...

[6./ZG26_Emil]

If another player damaged your plane before it hit the ground, then that player shot you down.

 

The player does have an incentive to land in BoS because if you land despite damage to your plane you're not considered shot down.

 

Those are really obvious rules above so I'm not sure what's "wrong" with BoS in this regard.

 

We're not talking about 'hitting the ground' we're talking about just damaging the prop on landing at your home airbase....the plane is down, the aircraft is not destroyed yet you would like to get a kill for it....

[BraveSirRobin]

We're not talking about 'hitting the ground' we're talking about just damaging the prop on landing at your home airbase....the plane is down, the aircraft is not destroyed yet you would like to get a kill for it....

 

Destroyed engine is how the game determines if an aircraft is disabled/killed.

[SharpeXB]

We're not talking about 'hitting the ground' we're talking about just damaging the prop on landing at your home airbase....the plane is down, the aircraft is not destroyed yet you would like to get a kill for it....

There's only two states your plane can reach the ground in. Landed or Crashed. If you damaged the prop then you didn't land, you crashed.

 

Landed = your plane is resting on its gear and you didn't break it on the ground getting there.

 

Crashed = anything else.

 

I haven't tested it but now I feel like paying more attention. I think if you hit the fuselage on the ground and break it, you crashed, so that would include the prop. I don't think the game counts ground looping and busting a wing as crashing.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

There's only two states your plane can reach the ground in. Landed or Crashed. If you damaged the prop then you didn't land, you crashed.

 

-snip-

 

Than you are agreeing that you have merely crashed and you haven't been shot down? 

[SharpeXB]

Than you are agreeing that you have merely crashed and you haven't been shot down?

If somebody shot you before you crashed then they shot you down. If you simply crash all by yourself without anyone shooting you then you're not "shot down" by anybody. You just crashed.

Honestly I'm not sure why this is confusing.

[Spacesheep]

Well , on a personnal note, it happened to me on MP of being "Shot down" as my engine stopped working but I still had a fully maneouvrable plane and some altitude....

 

While gliding around looking for the right way to get back to the line, I spotted an enemy just below that was on the close 6' of a friend so I decided to sacrifice my return to friendly line to defend the unluky plane.

 

I dived on him and cut the corner.... only one chance and... to my great surprise I took it well !!

the foe started to black smoke and collapsed in the nearby trees a few second later......

but .... I was already "dead" so no kill count if I remember well.

 

So to me there's still many limits to the current kill count system.

 

IMO a "damaged", "shared" and maybe "probable" status are needed to get rid of some of those limits but I don't rally know how much work does that take to implement those.... 

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Spacesheep

[SharpeXB]

 IMO a "damaged", "shared" and maybe "probable" status are needed to get rid of some of those limits but I don't rally know how much work does that take to implement those.... 

 

There are "assists" awarded in BoS if you share damage on an enemy plane with another player.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Best thing to do is play 46. Then your agruements will fall flat, and one can see how many things they could have done right in this game but didn't.

 

I still have hope things will get better.

[SharpeXB]

Best thing to do is play 46. Then your agruements will fall flat, and one can see how many things they could have done right in this game but didn't.

 

I still have hope things will get better.

Actually I think I understand it now.

The planes in 1946 are no doubt much easier to land. So some players can't land them in this game and think crashing them on the runway counts as a "landing".

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

If you damaged the prop then you didn't land, you crashed.

 

-snip-

 

 

If somebody shot you before you crashed then they shot you down. If you simply crash all by yourself without anyone shooting you then you're not "shot down" by anybody. You just crashed.

Honestly I'm not sure why this is confusing.

 

So if I "crash" on landing and destroy my own prop I am "shot down" because I may have had combat damage before hand..? 

 

You're right, I have no idea why this is so confusing for everybody as well... 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[6./ZG26_Emil]

If somebody shot you before you crashed then they shot you down. If you simply crash all by yourself without anyone shooting you then you're not "shot down" by anybody. You just crashed.

Honestly I'm not sure why this is confusing.

 

and yet if you land a plane that looks like Swiss cheese and would never fly again you are not shot down....but you can have very minor damage, bend the prop on landing and you are..

 

Surely you must see the point?

[SharpeXB]

So if I "crash" on landing and destroy my own prop I am "shot down" because I may have had combat damage before hand..?

 

How the the computer know why you crashed?

Since the end result is the same why does it matter?

And if you can land the plane correctly then you won't get "shot down".

 

I think the problem is that some of the 1946 "aces" just can't land their planes and are bellyaching about getting "shot down" when they wipe out.

and yet if you land a plane that looks like Swiss cheese and would never fly again you are not shot down....but you can have very minor damage, bend the prop on landing and you are..

 

Because if you can land a Swiss cheese you're a great pilot.

Once again there's no such thing as "landing with a bent prop" if you bent the prop you crashed.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

How the the computer know why you crashed?

Since the end result is the same why does it matter?

And if you can land the plane correctly then you won't get "shot down".

 

I think the problem is that some of the 1946 "aces" just can't land their planes and are bellyaching about getting "shot down" when they wipe out.

Because if you can land a Swiss cheese you're a great pilot.

Once again there's no such thing as "landing with a bent prop" if you bent the prop you crashed.

 

Finally we agree 

[SharpeXB]

Finally we agree

Crashing after somebody else shoots you = getting shot down.

[Sokol1]

Very gamey your concepts... 

[SharpeXB]

Very gamey your concepts...

It is a game. Especially MP. There's no way for a computer to score the realistic victory criteria in an impartial way.

Single player in some type of realistic career mode can do that. But not MP. And as long as everybody understands the rules it doesn't matter.

 

1946 encourages players to attempt landing

BoS encourages players to succeed at landing.

 

BoS is better.

Edited September 22, 2015 by SharpeXB