ME 262 - Could It Ever Be A Reality?

[Elem]

We would just HAVE to have the Gloster Meteor for the upcoming BoV (Battle of the Vergeltungswaffen)  ....

 

The Meteor was initially used to counter the V-1 flying bomb threat. 616 Squadron Meteors saw action for the first time on 27 July 1944, when three aircraft were active over Kent. These were the first operational jet combat missions for the Meteor and for the Royal Air Force. After some problems, especially with jamming guns, the first two V1 "kills" were made on 4 August.^[103] By war's end, Meteors accounted for 14 flying bombs.

[EliteWing]

Nope. Looks is the overall factor for why I don't find the Me 262 'sexy'.

 

The lack of appeal has more to do with the fact that it was such a late war plane pressed into service despite numerous teething problems and ultimately failing to have much of an impact.

 

Fair enough, although I cant really see that as a over all unattractive factor... not to mention, you never know what the full potential of the 262 was. All we know, is it did make a considerable short difference when it was actually in the air. If we could simulate it, those impacts could be much more visible. I still cant see why you would not want to see a new age simulated ME 262... that is if you are actually a aviation enthusiast. I have literally NEVER met another enthusiast, that is not interested in what the ME 262 was all about.

 

It broke ground for what we have today. That should be enough to peak your interests.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Fair enough, although I cant really see that as a over all unattractive factor... not to mention, you never know what the full potential of the 262 was.

Galland  was very impressed by the 262s performance and flight characteristics. It's said he even tried to persuade the Geman War ministry to cancle production of all Bf109s and Fw 190s in favour of the Me 262 production. He also was a bitter enemy of Hitlers attempts to convert the 262 into a fighter bomber which in the end had delayed the fighter version production.

 

It is also clear that the german jet program lead to other nations pushing their jet developments. While some Meteors where active in 1944 they were not as numberous as the Me 262, not to mention slower.

[LukeFF]

 

 

He also was a bitter enemy of Hitlers attempts to convert the 262 into a fighter bomber which in the end had delayed the fighter version production.

 

That's a myth that was debunked long, long ago. The 262 was designed to be a fighter-bomber from very early on in its development.  

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

That's a myth that was debunked long, long ago. The 262 was designed to be a fighter-bomber from very early on in its development.  

 

Galland wrote and spoke about it.

 

I'm not saying that means its fool-proof but it seems General of the Fighter Wing would have some idea.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

That's a myth that was debunked long, long ago. The 262 was designed to be a fighter-bomber from very early on in its development.  

It may be that the RLM gave Messerschmitt the order to produce it as a fighter bomber (which happened after the prototype testing stage involving Galland) but the plane initially was constructed with no though given to where to fit bombs and racks. After the order was given engineers brought up different concepts form nose mounted bombs (dangerously shifting the CoM) to towed bombs with their own wings. So as it stands the Me 262 was not developed as a fighter bomber initially.

 

Messcherschmitt aimed for speed and performance with his design and surely didn't want to ruin all that by installing external ordinance in the first place. He just needed the RLMs approaval which involved this unrealistic condition demanded by Hitler.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Frequent_Flyer]

I agree with the sentiment ,its nice to dream. A P-61 Black Widow with fully working radar. More importantly a much more dynamic and interesting  PTO, to operate it in.

[LukeFF]

It may be that the RLM gave Messerschmitt the order to produce it as a fighter bomber (which happened after the prototype testing stage involving Galland) but the plane initially was constructed with no though given to where to fit bombs and racks. After the order was given engineers brought up different concepts form nose mounted bombs (dangerously shifting the CoM) to towed bombs with their own wings. So as it stands the Me 262 was not developed as a fighter bomber initially.

 

Messcherschmitt aimed for speed and performance with his design and surely didn't want to ruin all that by installing external ordinance in the first place. He just needed the RLMs approaval which involved this unrealistic condition demanded by Hitler.

 

Sorry, but no, you are just repeating old, faulty information passed on in the postwar era, when all of the high-ranking German officers were doing everything they could to look like they were blameless when it came to the military failures of Germany during the war.

 

Long quote, but worth reading (I posted this recently on another forum):

 

The latest state of development of the Me 262 incorporating the new findings and requirements had in the meantime been summarized in Project Submission IV. The specification for the "Me 262 fighter and fighter-bomber" drawn up on May 9, 1943 largely determined the shape of the aircraft from then on.

 

The following is a brief outline of salient points of the improved version:

 

-strengthened armament of 4 X or 6 X MK 108 cannon,

-strengthened undercarriage with larger wheels,

-auxiliary tanks for 650 l and 125 l,

-bomb-carrying installation for 1 X 500 kg, BT 700 or 2 X 250 kg bombs,

-cockpit heating,

-improved armor protection,

-expanded radio installation

 

...

 

On November 2 [1943] at the company's Regensburg works Goering came right to the point without beating around the bush:

 

Goering: "Gentlemen! Today I would like to clarify the situation concerning the Me 262, and in two directions. One, with regard to the rate of production of this machine, as this is planned at this time and appears assured. Two, what things can eventually be done to produce this aircraft more quickly and in greater numbers while cutting back in other areas. But the main question is a very important technical question, namely is the 262 jet fighter capable of carrying one or two bombs so as to be able to operate as a surprise fighter-bomber. Here I would like to convey the thought of the Fuehrer, who spoke to me about these matters several days ago and who would very much like to see this issue settled....

 

I would now like to steer this discussion in another direction and speak first not of production and so on, but rather discuss in detail the technical possibilities of the Me 262 carrying bombs externally - any other way is probably impossible - and what weight of bombs we are talking about in two configurations: one bomb in the center and in the other case two bombs right and left. The machine was designed by Professor Messerschmitt and I would therefore like to ask for your view."

 

Messerschmitt: "Herr Reichsmarschall! It was intended from the beginning that the machine could be fitted with two bomb racks so that it could drop bombs, either one 500 kg or two 250 kg. But it can also carry one 1,000 kg or two 500 kg bombs. But for the time being the bomb racks and necessary electrical circuits are not being installed, as the machine is about to enter production."

 

Goering: "That answers the Fuehrer's main question. He is not thinking of 1,000 kg, indeed he once said to me that he would be extremely grateful if we could carry even two 70 kg bombs. Naturally he will be very pleased to hear that two 250 kg bombs can be carried. 

 

Now on to the second question: When would it be possible to retrofit the machines now under construction, meaning the first ones, with these racks?"

 

Messerschmitt: "The design work has not yet been done. I must first design the bomb racks and electrical circuits and then retrofit the first machines with them."

 

Goering: "You said that it has already been planned, therefore you must have given it some thought...How long do you estimate for the design of the racks and the circuits if it really becomes a matter of do or die?"

 

Messerschmitt: "It can be done relatively quickly, in 14 days. The installation isn't much. It's just a matter of fairing the bomb racks."

 

...

 

Of the planned use of the Me 262 as a fighter-bomber, Adolf Galland states in his book Die Ersten und die Letzten:

 

"...Hitler was right. In fact none of us had thought of it [using the 262 as a fighter-bomber]."

 

But why not? A Fuehrer Order had been on the table since February of that year [1943] which unequivocally required that all fighters - including the Me 262 - should be able to carry bombs. Hitler never withdrew from this requirement. Accordingly Messerschmitt had planned bomb-carrying installations for almost every one of his Me 262 variants. Even if Hitler's order was forgotten in the meantime or pushed into the background, all of the participants were reminded of it emphatically on November 2 at the latest. And finally, several days later, Hitler even involved the Luftwaffe Operations Staff in the question of using the Me 262 as a fighter-bomber. After giving the matter consideration the latter reached the following conclusions on November 18:

 

"...As the carriage of bombs by the Me 262 fighter is already in the planning and the potential in fact exists, the demand by the Fuehrer for a jet aircraft for bombing missions against ground and sea targets during a coastal battle can be fully met by retaining the aircraft's high production priority without disrupting development or production as would be the case if priority were shifted from bomber to fighter or if special production of a jet fighter-bomber was to begin.  

 

In the event that enough of these aircraft could be produced this solution has an advantage in that this aircraft would probably also be capable of restraining the numerically far superior enemy fighters and clearing the skies to a degree that existing bombers would be able to operate effectively along our own coast. Based on these considerations it is recommended that:

 

Series production of the Me 262 fighter be accelerated. Preparation of conversion kits for use of the Me 262 in the fighter-bomber role."

 

The signs were all there that is was intended that the Me 262 be used as a fighter-bomber initially, but apparently no one knew or suspected anything at Insterburg on November 26. Reference should be made to the claims by many authors that Hitler sowed the seeds of the German fighter arm's demise that day. What was the immediate effect of the "Fuehrer's inspiration," as it is often called: absolutely nothing! Operational testing as a fighter or fighter-bomber was simply not feasible with the prototypes. Such a program could not begin until after series production had begun, and no measures were initiated by Messerschmitt, such as the designing of conversion kits, to accommodate Hitler's demand. Everyone kept quiet about the fact that production planning was still focused on the pure fighter version.

 

...The bomb burst on May 25, 1944. Under pointed questioning by Hitler, Milch was forced to admit that none of the machines built so far could be employed as fighter-bombers. Hitler's reaction to the disregarding to his order was predictable and found its logical sequel in Goering's statements to representatives of the Luftwaffe, the E-Stelle Rechlin and Messerschmitt four days later:

 

"I have had to call you gentlemen here as the matter of the Me 262 must be cleared up once and for all...The Fuehrer is rightly quite upset and says that everything he ordered has not been carried out...The Fuehrer wants the aircraft as a high-speed bomber and not as a fighter at first. Nevertheless, he does not want further development as a fighter to be completely halted...He only wants all production aircraft to be bombers until further advised and that all emphasis be placed on the bomber sector...

 

Petersen: (as to the question of fighter operations): "There is still a problem relating to operations, and it involves the engines. The bugs have not been worked out of the engine controls and the throttles cannot be closed above 9,000 m without the engines flaming out immediately. Combat above 9,000 m therefore poses difficulties."

 

Galland: "That's true."

 

Goering: "Therefore it is clear that at present the aircraft can best be used as the Fuehrer proposes. I will say it once again so that we all understand: the Fuehrer does not want a complete paralyzation of the Me 262 as a fighter. It is just that he needs the aircraft for other purposes at this time, and as it is not ready to be used as a fighter, as we now hear again about the 9,000 m altitude, he says correctly: at 4,000 or 6,000 meters I have the full advantage of the machine as a high-speed bomber which cannot be caught...When the day comes that I can tell the Fuehrer that the first Staffel of high-speed bombers is ready and that production is in full swing, then the Fuehrer will authorize the machine as a fighter..."

 

...All discussions of this theme are basically academic: the Allied landings took place before an operational unit had been formed. Thus history must be responsible for proving or disproving Hitler's thesis....

 

The question must now be asked as to the possible course of the air war had all the machines built between May 25 and November 4, 1944 been incorporated into Germany's air defence. Absolutely reliable sources show a production of 239 Me 262s during this period. But only about 60(!) aircraft were in fact delivered to KG 51. This is the figure that must be used in any calculations or speculations. These 60 Me 262s would undoubtedly have been a great advantage in the careful retraining of fighter pilots and in a logically-designed front-line testing program; but no one will seriously contend that they could have brought about a decisive change in the air war.

 

- Quoted from Manfred Boehme, JG 7

 

60 more Me 262s allocated to the German fighter forces would have made very, very little difference in the final outcome of the war.

Edited September 17, 2015 by LukeFF

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Of course Messerschmitt admitted it could. He had some reputation to lose and wanted his jet fighter to be mass produced at all cost so he took the gamble. That does not mean it was planed as a bomber from the very beginning at all.

 

The Me 262 existetin flyable prototype form as early as 1942 fittet with a piston engine, later BMW jet engines (those were very unreliable at the time and thus abandoned in favur of the Jumos). Don't know when exactly Galland took it into the air, but I think it was the prototype with tailwheel so quite early on in development.

 

If you look at the 262 technically you immedently notice how nonsense it is to consider it a bomber. Messerschitt has given no though to bomb attachments at all but aimed for a fighter able to outperfrom the competing He 280. Heinkel by that time still enjoyed high political reputation and was famous for building fast aircraft and his He 280 also was not fittet with bomb racks, either.

 

Maybe we should ask counterwise why it took Messerschmitt 2 years of development to fit bombs on an already completed aircraft if he did consider this option from the very beginning?

 

60 more Me 262s allocated to the German fighter forces would have made very, very little difference in the final outcome of the war.

Who said they could only produce 60 more?

Edited September 17, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[LukeFF]

Ok, so then tell me where the Luftwaffe was supposed to magically acquire more than the 60 262s originally meant for KG51, in a world where the plane was used only as a fighter? And in what alternate reality do those 60 planes stop the Allies from bombing Germany to rubble?

 

And my point still stands: Hitler did not hold up the plane's deployment by demanding it carry bombs. Messerschmidt et al knew plenty well in advance of that requirement, yet they chose to ignore it.