To aim or not to aim with rudders?

[Warpig]

I have owned my first joystick for a little over 2 years now. It is a twist joystick, and I have taught myself to never, ever use rudders while aiming. Mostly because I find it to be more accurate, and that twist rudder control is not possible to be precise with. Another issue with rudder aiming is that it displaces the bullet stream, much more than ailerons ever would. With practice, I find it both easy and much more accurate using the ailerons to line up the horizontal plain.

 

So as a mostly self-taught virtual pilot that learned all I know from youtube and forums, what's you opinions? And also: Did real WW2 pilots use rudder to aim with?

 

I am in the process of having my new set of pedals delivered and if I need to learn some better habits, I'd rather start off right with my new setup.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Warpig

[Bullets]

Rudder I find is much easier to use IRL compared to sims, ROF/BOS has the most realistic rudders out of the sims that I have flown. However I do agree with you, it is hard to be precise when using the rudder in game, especially if you are using a twist joystick!  I rarely find myself using rudder to line up a shot unless I am hanging on my prop and trying to shoot at a crazy angle! 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Well, speaking for myself, I considered rudder as not critical for a long time, just relying on the twist stick mainly for taxiing. But when I got my first set of pedals, it was day and night. You have a tremendously more precise control on the yaw axis than with the twist stick, and for me it allowed a much quicker aiming, and straffing was a lot easier. Wait for your pedals to move in and I'm sure you will find a lot of things that rudder can do to help your shooting 

 

It might need a bit of tuning though, because an over-sensitive yaw axis can really throw your aim off. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Rudder input can often give that little bit of extra movement to hit an air target. Rudder input is key to hitting ground targets also

Edited September 15, 2015 by [TBC]AeroACE

[Guest deleted@50488]

I feel rudder is too twitchy in IL2 BoS. I have to apply exponential filtering to it in order to get acceptable response.

[=FI=Rambo]

For me using my rudder while shooting is essential. It allows me to correct my aim for very long high angle shots

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I feel rudder is too twitchy in IL2 BoS. I have to apply exponential filtering to it in order to get acceptable response.

That could help. I have mfgs so there is a mechanical exponential which really helps and means I don't need to play with software

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

As Dart always said: "No rudders! They'll only getcha all cattywompus."

[Dakpilot]

Personally I think the rudder (and other) sensitivity should have been much slower at default settings with the ability to speed it up in the options if you wanted/needed....

 

However that would have led to many complaints about 'UFO' handling in MP until people and newcomers realised they can also adjust their aircraft to Extra 300 responses    

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Emil]

essential for certain high angle deflection shots

[-TBC-AeroAce]

The key with rudders and any other control input is to be smooth and not stabby. That's it really

[6./ZG26_Emil]

The key with rudders and any other control input is to be smooth and not stabby. That's it really

 

I'd agree mostly for normal flight but there are times I really stomp on mine for a snap shot

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I'd agree mostly for normal flight but there are times I really stomp on mine for a snap shot

I know what you mean. I guess the key is to limit yoyo by being smooth but firm and avoid overshoot

[SharpeXB]

A caveat with using the rudder for aiming is when delivering bombs. You don't want to be in a sideslip. Your bombs will fall along your velocity vector, not necessarily where your nose is pointed.

[[TWB]Pand]

I couldn't imagine trying to fly/fight/aim without rudder pedals.  Set your "sensitivity" to ensure you're smooth and accurate on your yaw axis, just like you would for your pitch axis.  This is imperative when targeting specific parts (wings, cockpit, engine, etc) of an enemy aircraft.  

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm always on the rudder with my twist stick. Its sensitive by default but if you tweak it a bit the usefulness and accuracy goes up. Essential for my gunnery to be accurate is a little rudder although I like to kind of glide the nose onto the target at the last moment if I can.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

The question should be how do you aim without rudder. No really you are making aiming much harder without using proper rudder control.

 

My pedals were set at 60 percent for those fine tune adjustments. Yes, it can hurt with snap shots but it was a trade off for being able to pinpoint the wing root per say.

 

P.s. Rambo I'll probably be back when the p40 drops. See you then.

[Warpig]

The question should be how do you aim without rudder.

I simply used ailerons instead. With some practice it's automatic, I don't even think about it. For me it's much more accurate than trying to use a twist rudder. No matter how I tweaked the twist axis, it just never worked well for me.

 

It will be interesting to see the differences that pedals bring. And I can finally practice coordinated turns.

A caveat with using the rudder for aiming is when delivering bombs. You don't want to be in a sideslip. Your bombs will fall along your velocity vector, not necessarily where your nose is pointed.

I've found using ailerons for adjusting my bombing path also works great.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Warpig

[Y-29.Silky]

You will notice how useful the rudder is when you need to adjust a few degrees to get that final lead on an enemy, where you will pull the trigger while pressing down on the rudder to maintain that gunnery solution.

 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Warpig]

All good points. I appreciate your responses.

[181st_Oz*]

- think with your ailerons, act with your rudders, pig.

[Warpig]

- think with your ailerons, act with your rudders, pig.

That actually makes a lot of sense to me.

 

UPDATE: I received my T-Rudder Pedals and wow, I've been missing out on so much. I have yet to try this game with the pedals, but some time in WT has shown me what more a set of pedals adds to simming. I once ordered a set of Saitek Combat Pedals, but at the time they were big, clunky, and didn't work with my modest rolling chair and desk setup. I somehow struggled to coordinate my brain to use the pedals as well. The combat pedal style just doesn't feel natural to me. However, with these T-Rudder Pedals, it instantly feels natural, and the vertical axis makes it possible to stay stationary in my rolling chair. I could instantly translate rudder movement to the pedals without too much thought. And the accuracy of these pedals is spot on.

 

I can now achieve fine control on the runway and in coordinated turns. With coordinated turning, it seems it's much easier for me to ride a turn on the edge with less risk of spin. I can also actually make fine rudder adjustments while aiming and almost eliminate any kind of wobble that was present with twist rudder. Maneuvers like the hammerhead seemed worlds easier as well.

 

Overall, I can easily see how a set of pedals has the potential to take me to the next level control and accuracy. It's a completely different game now.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Of course high grade stuff will always help making your simulator experience better.

 

I can't complain of my Saitek Combat Pro pedals. They're very good. 

 

In IL2 BoS I have to set the rudder axis sensitivity to 20 or 25%, sometimes I set it at 40%, because otherwise I feel the rudder has too much authority.

[wtornado]

I feel rudder is too twitchy in IL2 BoS. I have to apply exponential filtering to it in order to get acceptable response.

Very twitchy...so twitchy I line up from far with a higher speed for stability in order

to avoid having to use the rudder system as less as possible.

 

- think with your ailerons, act with your rudders, pig.

That is it a greater distance with a good deflection angle or angle of decent

and a lot of speed to provide a stable gun platform.

 

I use both but ailerons more.I can because of my distance away from the target.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Very twitchy...so twitchy I line up from far with a higher speed for stability in order

to avoid having to use the rudder system as less as possible.

 

That is it a greater distance with a good deflection angle or angle of decent

and a lot of speed to provide a stable gun platform.

 

I use both but ailerons more.I can because of my distance away from the target.

 

Spot on

 

No need for flaps or lots of maneuvers 

[donkeycods]

This isn't related to aiming, but rather throwing off someone else's aim. My great-uncle flew Hellcats and Corsairs in the Pacific and I recall him saying he always flew with extra right rudder giving him a little side slip to throw off the aim of any Zeros that might have snuck up behind him. I don't know how effective that is, but it probably helps. He survived to tell about it anyway.

[SharpeXB]

This isn't related to aiming, but rather throwing off someone else's aim. My great-uncle flew Hellcats and Corsairs in the Pacific and I recall him saying he always flew with extra right rudder giving him a little side slip to throw off the aim of any Zeros that might have snuck up behind him. I don't know how effective that is, but it probably helps. He survived to tell about it anyway.

I saw a pilot in a Battle of Britain documentary say the same thing.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I think somebody here (probably JG5_ChiefWH) was suggesting that as well when dealing with the AI hitting the pilot constantly. Step hard on the rudder and throw off their aim.

 

When firing, I generally use this bit from a Soviet Air Force tactical manual from 1943 for guidance (if anyone doesn't have the full thing I can send it, just send me a PM). I apply this in most situations, not just the 3-9 approach, a habit I developed using the 37mm cannon on the P-39 (still flying 1946 as of now, the PC won't do just yet). A good amount of kills I get are from shoving the nose onto the target on the last minute and landing cannon rounds on it. But then again, different simulators...

 

Follow these rules when firing:

- Save ammunition. Only open fire after you aim
- Open fire at close distance – but be capable of hitting targets from far away

- When firing from the 12-6 line, follow enemy plane with your burst

- When firing from the 3-9 line, apply rudder in the direction of the enemy.

- When firing from other angles, fire long bursts in front of the enemy to cause him to fly through it

- Aim tracers to center of your target by altitude.

- Be certain in your aim. Check your guns often and set convergence yourself.

 

 

Not sure how feasible this is in BoS, but my go-to approach for gunnery practice is to set yourself up against bombers - unarmed if possible - and come in firing from all kinds of angles. If you want a good challenge dare yourself to put every single round on target, it will make you really think where will the bullet land before you fire. Ground attack with guns in the Il-2 helped me develop a steady hand and taught me to really get close whenever possible to score a good hit.

 

Also, trimming the aircraft well improves gunnery a lot for me.