Heinkel 111

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

While the He 111 was by no means a poor aircraft, calling it the "best medium bomber ever" seems completely hyperbole.

 

The only major advantages I can see for the He 111 over most other medium bombers of WW2 is its relatively heavy bomb load (though carrying max bombload on external hardpoints came at the price of significantly reduced performance) and a rather sturdy construction.

 

Overall the He 111 is just a 1930s design kept in service a bit longer than it should have been. For 1941-45 it's pretty slow, with middeling range, rather weak defensive armament with a pretty obvious and quite large blind angle centered at 12 o'clock high, poor maneuverability, low service ceiling, poor climb rate and limited versatility in terms of being able to perform other tasks than level bombing. 

 

Compare to two of the most obvious candidates for the title of "best medium bomber":

 

B-25J: About equal in speed, just as sturdy if not more, better armament (offensive and defensive) with very few blind spots, more advanced bomb sight, higher service ceiling, lower maximum bombload, greater versatility.

 

Tu-2S: Much faster at all altitudes, climbs better, nearly 50% higher service ceiling, significantly more maneuverable, slightly larger maximum bombload, though internal bombload is smaller, fewer defensive guns but overall heavier defensive firepower (.50cal UBS), powerful offensive firepower (2 x ShVAK), less crew,  less technologically refined than either He 111 and B-25, very versatile.

 

It doesn't seem to me, that the He 111 is a very obvious candidate to be the best.

First, what happened to "Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

Bye bye"

 

Second, why do you keep reading cold useless numbers?! Tell me which medium bomber had destroyed more cities, ships, factories, trenches, harbors, concetration troops, etc and etc, day and night than Heinkel 111?!

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

You are mistaken. Heinkel 111 was a medium bomber not a strategic long range bomber like americans B17, 24 and 29.

 

I never said or thought it was.  Where am I mistaken?

 

Why not speak to Professor Heinkel's statement about "...after 1941, they had been technically superseded..."   instead of pretending I made a claim I did not?

[Cybermat47]

Tell me which medium bomber had destroyed more cities, ships, factories, trenches, harbors, concetration troops, etc and etc, day and night than Heinkel 111?!

Which bomber did Nazi Germany use the most? The He-111. And Nazi Germany lost. I love the He-111, but she's absolutely crap.

[MarcoRossolini]

A quick wikipedia search tells me that the Mosquito was capable of carrying 1,800 kg of bombs whilst the Heinkel could carry 2,000kg internally. Doesn't seem like there's an awful lot of difference to me...

[LukeFF]

You are mistaken. Heinkel 111 was a medium bomber not a strategic long range bomber like americans B17, 24 and 29.

 

Wait, what? The Battle of Britain was all about strategic bombing. The Heinkels also flew strategic raids on the Eastern Front. Did you read that book?!

 

Night flying v1 launch platform makes He111 a even more special and distinguished career.

 

You are really grasping at straws now. The Germans had to resort to launching V-1s from He 111s, because the V-1 launch sites in Western Europe had been overrun - not because the plane was some awesome, wonder-inducing deliverer of terror weapons. Oh yeah, and of course the V-1 had a terrible record in the accuracy department. 

 

The La5 pilot need to stay plenty of time behind a He111 to shot it down. If La5 pilot stay there, his family is going to receive a letter from defense minister from USSR thanking for his services.

 

Oh my, please, lose the hyperbole. Right, and a smart La-5 pilot will either (a) attack in pairs or (b) attack from head-on and smash up that wonderful plexiglas nose with 20mm cannon fire, killing the pilot and gunner in the process. 

 

Bottom line, the He 111 was only kept in service as long as it was, because there was nothing else to replace it with.

Edited November 13, 2013 by LukeFF

[Scarecrow]

 I love the He-111, but she's absolutely crap.

I found this very funny for some odd reason, I lierally had tears in my eyes.

[MarcoRossolini]

If anything if we're talking about good German medium bombers the JU-88 probably is superior.

[Cybermat47]

I found this very funny for some odd reason, I lierally had tears in my eyes.

  

 

Well, I'm glad to have made someone happy

 

If anything if we're talking about good German medium bombers the JU-88 probably is superior.

+1

[Zettman]

Well being a Star Wars fan I love the appearance of the Heinkel 111. With the round caracteristics and the Dorsal and ventral turret bubbles it reminds me of a Mon Calamari Cruiser.

 

I would love to see it ingame as soon as possible.

 

Zettman

Edited November 13, 2013 by Zettman

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Well I do admit it is a nice aircraft, I especially like the early versions, which have never made an appearance in any sim yet.

We have always only got the H - version. For early theatres she is spot on but for later theatres as of 1943 she is pretty much obsolete

and at best a transport or a V1 carrier, Ju 88s and He 177s are better for the second half of the war.

[Finkeren]

First, what happened to "Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

Bye bye"

 

Second, why do you keep reading cold useless numbers?! Tell me which medium bomber had destroyed more cities, ships, factories, trenches, harbors, concetration troops, etc and etc, day and night than Heinkel 111?!

I never said "let's agree to disagree", you confuse me with someone else.

 

As far as combat record goes, it's very hard to get precise data. But I'll take a wild guess and say, that the B-25 beats the hell out of the Heinkel, being in service for a longer time in far greater numbers in many different theatres.

 

If you wanna count destroyed cities (and why would you do that when talking about a medium bomber, which is supposed to be mostly deployed in a tactical role?) look no further than the Vickers Wellington to find a bomber that not only destroyed more property but could carry the He-111s maximum internal bombload almost twice as long.

[MarcoRossolini]

Was it the Wellington that had the Geodetic fuselage as well...? (if it does then it gets also 10/10 for creativity)

[MiloMorai]

Well I do admit it is a nice aircraft, I especially like the early versions, which have never made an appearance in any sim yet.

We have always only got the H - version. For early theatres she is spot on but for later theatres as of 1943 she is pretty much obsolete

and at best a transport or a V1 carrier, Ju 88s and He 177s are better for the second half of the war.

 

There is a reason,

 

A count on 2 September 1939 revealed that the Luftwaffe had a total of 787 He 111s in service, with 705 combat ready, including 400 H-1 and H-2s that had been produced in a mere four months.

[JtD]

Earlier models would still be nice, for instance for Spanish civil war scenarios. Personally I think they also look better.

[Zettman]

Earlier models would still be nice, for instance for Spanish civil war scenarios. Personally I think they also look better.

 

Well this has no Spanish Civil war insignias, but it is one of the earlier models.

 

 

Camouflage looks nice in my opinion.

 

Zettman 

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I don't want to convey the wrong impression here: I am also excited about having the 111 in game.  It is an interesting aircraft, a workhorse for the Germans, very significant in the context of the game as well as the whole war.

 

I just objected to the "best" comment.  I let it go at first - everyone is entitled to an opinion - but then the OP got kind of militant about it.  When the builder claims his aircraft was tecdhnically superseded early in the war it amuses me that someone would want to argue against him and claim he doesn't know what he is talkingt about.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I never said or thought it was.  Where am I mistaken?

 

Why not speak to Professor Heinkel's statement about "...after 1941, they had been technically superseded..."   instead of pretending I made a claim I did not?

That is easy. After battle of Britain it was clear thar Germany needed a strategic bomber. The 111 was developed for blitzkrieg. That is what professor Heinkel was talking about. So they started the Heinkel 177, the best ever heavy strategic bomber of the war following manual performance numbers as you theorical guys like.

Which bomber did Nazi Germany use the most? The He-111. And Nazi Germany lost. I love the He-111, but she's absolutely crap.

Germany lost the war because of He111?! This really fun!! Where is the other guy who likes to say that we need to read more books?!

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Well you certainly do not seem to be very well informed about German bombers, why else would someone state

what you wrote about the He111......But I know books are rubbish and only for nerds. By the way I love books.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

A quick wikipedia search tells me that the Mosquito was capable of carrying 1,800 kg of bombs whilst the Heinkel could carry 2,000kg internally. Doesn't seem like there's an awful lot of difference to me...

The same wikipedia page says that mosquito was a multirole combat plane. Fast bomber, night fighter, photo, ship strike, fighter bomber. Not a medium bomber. You need other elements to become a kedium bomber besides payload.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Wait, what? The Battle of Britain was all about strategic bombing. The Heinkels also flew strategic raids on the Eastern Front. Did you read that book?!

 

 

 

You are really grasping at straws now. The Germans had to resort to launching V-1s from He 111s, because the V-1 launch sites in Western Europe had been overrun - not because the plane was some awesome, wonder-inducing deliverer of terror weapons. Oh yeah, and of course the V-1 had a terrible record in the accuracy department. 

 

 

 

Oh my, please, lose the hyperbole. Right, and a smart La-5 pilot will either (a) attack in pairs or (b) attack from head-on and smash up that wonderful plexiglas nose with 20mm cannon fire, killing the pilot and gunner in the process. 

 

Bottom line, the He 111 was only kept in service as long as it was, because there was nothing else to replace it with.

1. Battle of Britain was a classic case of a tactical airforce created to support frontline blitzkrieg needs that failed to meet the needs of a strategic campaign. You need heavy bombers and long range fighters to fight a strategic role. Luftwaffe was not equipped for that and failed.

 

2.Heinkel 111 was used to launch v1 rockets because was the best plane available for the job and could give the flexibility that land based v1s don't had. V1 were terror weapons, they were not exactly supposed to hit anything but cause fear to civil population and make England keep bak home important resources and men that could be used somewhere else. It was a very successful program doing that.

 

3.A smart l5 pilot would not risk a head on pass on a 111 formation with dozens 20mm cannons point to him. From behind there will be enough heavy mg cross fire to make l5 pilot life quite miserable.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

How is medium bomber defined? Mossie had both range and bombload of one.

 

And btw:"The medium bomber was generally considered to be any level bomber design that delivered about 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg) of ordnance over ranges of about 1,500 to 2,000 mi (2,400 to 3,200 km)."

3.A smart l5 pilot would not risk a head on pass on a 111 formation with dozens 20mm cannons point to him. From behind there will be enough heavy mg cross fire to make l5 pilot life quite miserable.

 

And this is the reason why no Heinkel 111s were shot down by enemy fighters during the war

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

If anything if we're talking about good German medium bombers the JU-88 probably is superior.

The Ju88 was a batter plane than He111 in other roles but medium level bomber. Both planes had same payload and accuracy in level bombing. But 111 could carry smart bombs and rockets and Ju88 doesn't.

[JtD]

How is medium bomber defined?

Judging by what's been said so far, a medium bomber is any plane that is inferior to the He 111, whereas any plane superior to the He 111 in any way is not a medium bomber. With that definition, you're safe to end up with the He 111 as the best medium bomber, ever, period. Any other definition, and things get way too complicated.

[LukeFF]

So they started the Heinkel 177, the best ever heavy strategic bomber of the war following manual performance numbers as you theorical guys like.

 

                   

 

You're making this way too easy.

[LukeFF]

From behind there will be enough heavy mg cross fire to make l5 pilot life quite miserable. 

 

 

Sure didn't seem to stop the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Just like the rest of the Luftwaffe, the He 111 was...

 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

                   

 

You're making this way too easy.

Yeah beacause some people here only look to 3 view stats page. They don't look to the long list of service of a plane.

How is medium bomber defined? Mossie had both range and bombload of one.

 

And btw:"The medium bomber was generally considered to be any level bomber design that delivered about 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg) of ordnance over ranges of about 1,500 to 2,000 mi (2,400 to 3,200 km)."

 

And this is the reason why no Heinkel 111s were shot down by enemy fighters during the war

It was dangerous job and not easy meat like people are saying.

Sure didn't seem to stop the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Just like the rest of the Luftwaffe, the He 111 was...

 

downed.jpg

Back in Britain it was 7.7mm rifle caliber mgs. It was troublesome for gunners. Later it was corrected to bigger 13mm. I won again. Keep trying dude!!

[CIA_Yankee_]

                   

 

You're making this way too easy.

 

I would hope someone would finally notice the true purpose of this thread, at least.

 

Next up, the Ju-52 will be declared the absolute best transport/bomber of WWII. Ever. The bestest!

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Judging by what's been said so far, a medium bomber is any plane that is inferior to the He 111, whereas any plane superior to the He 111 in any way is not a medium bomber. With that definition, you're safe to end up with the He 111 as the best medium bomber, ever, period. Any other definition, and things get way too complicated.

Say which plane you think is better medium bomber?!

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I would hope someone would finally notice the true purpose of this thread, at least.

 

Next up, the Ju-52 will be declared the absolute best transport/bomber of WWII. Ever. The bestest!

I haven't seen a single solid argument so far against the He111. By the way one more thing that you guys don't know. He111 was the only medium bomber that was able to outrun fighters when was introduced. It is worth 1000 points to its reputation

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I don't want to convey the wrong impression here: I am also excited about having the 111 in game.  It is an interesting aircraft, a workhorse for the Germans, very significant in the context of the game as well as the whole war.

 

I just objected to the "best" comment.  I let it go at first - everyone is entitled to an opinion - but then the OP got kind of militant about it.  When the builder claims his aircraft was tecdhnically superseded early in the war it amuses me that someone would want to argue against him and claim he doesn't know what he is talkingt about.

The 109 was obsolete too compared to later fighters but it could not stop it of having the most distinguished career of all ww2 fighters. Just like the He111.

[FuriousMeow]

Little known fact about the He111, not only was it the best medium bomber it is also technically the first passenger plane as well. It came equipped with a small kitchen that contained an oven that had it's heat pulled from the engine's exhaust through a unique piping system that delivered the heat into the oven's framework allowing all manner of wurst to be heated and served during long transcontinental flights that were possible by replacing the bombload with additional fuel tanks while the guns were removed and replaced with collapsable chairs. Hitler made his first flight to America aboard one when his transcontinental pasenger uber medium bomber passed by the Hindenburg moments before it's historic end.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

I haven't seen a single solid argument so far against the He111. By the way one more thing that you guys don't know. He111 was the only medium bomber that was able to outrun fighters when was introduced. It is worth 1000 points to its reputation

Because you blend out any argument against the He 111, still have not answered why next to every German bomber squadron replaced the He 111 with the Ju 88! But going by your logic I guess those squadrons where all stupid.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I would hope someone would finally notice the true purpose of this thread, at least.

 

Next up, the Ju-52 will be declared the absolute best transport/bomber of WWII. Ever. The bestest!

Considering that Ju52 was dropping bombs in Spain before other transports were even build, you probably right!!

Little known fact about the He111, not only was it the best medium bomber it is also technically the first passenger plane as well. It came equipped with a small kitchen that contained an oven that had it's heat pulled from the engine's exhaust through a unique piping system that delivered the heat into the oven's framework allowing all manner of wurst to be heated and served during long transcontinental flights that were possible by replacing the bombload with additional fuel tanks while the guns were removed and replaced with collapsable chairs. Hitler made his first flight to America aboard one when his transcontinental pasenger uber medium bomber passed by the Hindenburg moments before it's historic end.

More 1000 points to He111 unique and distinguished career.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Because you blend out any argument against the He 111, still have not answered why next to every German bomber squadron replaced the He 111 with the Ju 88! But going by your logic I guess those squadrons where all stupid.

Every?! Really?! What about KG3 guys firing v1 rockets?! You dont need to be flying to the last day of war to be considered the best one. Just saying.

Edited November 15, 2013 by JG62Gielow

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

That is easy. After battle of Britain it was clear thar Germany needed a strategic bomber. The 111 was developed for blitzkrieg. That is what professor Heinkel was talking about. So they started the Heinkel 177, the best ever heavy strategic bomber of the war following manual performance numbers as you theorical guys like.

 

 

Ummmm....  Do you read what you write?  Just because there is a need for a strategic bomber doesn't mean there is not a need for a medium bomber.

 

Did you know development of the 177 started well before the Battle of Britain?  Did you know production of the 111 continued long after it?  You aren't making any sense.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Rama

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Ummmm....  Do you read what you write?  Just because there is a need for a strategic bomber doesn't mean there is not a need for a medium bomber.

 

Did you know development of the 177 started well before the Battle of Britain?  Did you know production of the 111 continued long after it?  You aren't making any sense.

I meant that he177 program was given priority when it was clear the necessity of a real strategic bomber.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Rama

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

The 109 was obsolete too compared to later fighters but it could not stop it of having the most distinguished career of all ww2 fighters. Just like the He111.

So wait, now you are confusiing "effective" with "best"?

I meant that he177 program was given priority when it was clear the necessity of a real strategic bomber.

 

Maybe I'm not being clear.  They are different aircraft in different roles.  Sorry.  You're just trying to distract attention onto unrelated topics.

[LukeFF]

Back in Britain it was 7.7mm rifle caliber mgs. It was troublesome for gunners. Later it was corrected to bigger 13mm. I won again. Keep trying dude!!

 

The He 111 suffered around 250 losses during the Battle of Britain, 60% to British activity. This represented half of the starting establishment of the He 111 units, and while aircraft could be replaced, the experienced aircrew could not.

 

On 15 August the Luftwaffe launched an attack on the north east of England, from bases in Norway, confident that they would meet no fighter opposition. Seventy two He 111s provided the bomber element of this attack, which was aimed at Bomber Command bases in Yorkshire. Sixty three Heinkels reached the English coast near Newcastle, where they were met by a strong force of RAF fighters from squadrons being rested. Eight He 111s were lost in the ensuing battle, along with a number of the Bf 110s escorting them.

 

 

http://historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_he111_combat.html

 

So, the Luftwaffe lost half of the He 111s in the BoB that they started the battle with, to planes armed with .303 machine guns. Yeah, sounds like a real winner!

He111 was the only medium bomber that was able to outrun fighters when was introduced. 

 

And there's the problem the 111 had. The idea that bombers would always be able to outrun enemy interceptors was a flawed concept that cost the Germans big time again and again and again, and that's why it was gradually withdrawn from Luftwaffe service as the war dragged on. Even the most mediocre LaGG-3 or Yak could intercept it in 1941.

[LukeFF]

Say which plane you think is better medium bomber?!

 

B-25, hand's down. Better-armed, more robust, and far more versatile. 

Edited November 15, 2013 by LukeFF

[Cybermat47]

Well I do admit it is a nice aircraft, I especially like the early versions, which have never made an appearance in any sim yet.

The P-2 is in CloD, and the A-0, B-2, and E-1 are in the Spanish Civil War mod for IL2 1946.

That is easy. After battle of Britain it was clear thar Germany needed a strategic bomber. The 111 was developed for blitzkrieg. That is what professor Heinkel was talking about. So they started the Heinkel 177, the best ever heavy strategic bomber of the war following manual performance numbers as you theorical guys like.

He-177... the best..? Umm... tell that to all the aircrew who DIED due to engine malfunction.

The 109 was obsolete too compared to later fighters but it could not stop it of having the most distinguished career of all ww2 fighters. Just like the He111.

No, the most distinguished WWII fighter was the P-51. It could dogfight, it was fast, and it could escort B-29s to and from Japan.