Rudder sensitivity

[andyw248]

The other day when I did some RW flying it struck me that the rudder pedals in the real plane were quite stiff. Much stiffer than the CH Pro Pedals that I use for flight simming. I was flying over a desert in Idaho; the air was quite bumpy so I tried to correct with control inputs, and that's when I realized how hard it was to apply the right amount of correction to the rudders. The plane was a Beech Bonanza.

 

Why am I writing this? Because a lot has been written in this forum about the rudders being oversensitive. I think the modeling of the rudders is aerodynamically ok; the real issue is the softness of sim pedals that makes us believe we could easily apply a large amount of rudder... in a real plane we would have to kick really hard to do that, and I the stories of 109 pilots make sense when they mention how hard it was to constantly apply left rudder in cruise.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Totally agreed.

 

I'm also a RW pilot, mostly on Cessna 152. I'm using the saitek rudders (the $100 model) and even on the stiffest setting, it is still too soft and doesn't "feel" like flying a real plane. I went back to a softer setting for comfort.

A force-feedback rudder could be more able to mimic the real feeling, especially when flying at high speed, but I don't even know if there is one on the market.

[Dakpilot]

Totally agree, I think this can also be amplified even more with twist joysticks.

 

A long time ago I posted about setting curves and sensitivities. I believe in old IL-2 there were a setup of curves available from a very experienced Spitfire pilot, they were not very popular because of the slow input and seemingly very slow response compared to what most people were used to.

 

There were also some very detailed setups for, I think FSX DC-3 which turned the quite lively standard handling into a much more believable experience, the term 'kick rudder' used in pilots memoirs when describing dogfights and suchlike has led to a perception that WWII aircraft were much "lighter' on controls, as perceived in sims. 

 

By no means can I consider myself to have a bodybuilder physique  but in my younger days I was pretty fit, the amount of times I got the dreaded "knee shake" when holding rudder input on an engine out approach or similar procedure does come to mind  In one type of aircraft I flew both pilot and co-pilot would have to be switched on in the event of an engine failure because one set of legs was not enough

 

A lot of the oft reported 'superior" handling qualities of some German aircraft is lost in translation when presented in a 'sim world' due to light control input forces from joysticks. Aircraft like the Yak with their real world less effective controls become more easy to handle at the limit, then get tagged as unrealistic and advantageous in the sim. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to make excuses for any FM errors, but this is a factor that many ignore

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Dr_Molenbeek]

A lot of the oft reported 'superior" handling qualities of some German aircraft is lost in translation when presented in a 'sim world' due to light control input forces from joysticks. Aircraft like the Yak with their real world less effective controls become more easy to handle at the limit, then get tagged as unrealistic and advantageous in the sim. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to make excuses for any FM errors, but this is a factor that many ignore

 

+1

 

Always felt that this "issue", stick force reproduction, is one of the biggest problems of today's sim.

[L3Pl4K]

A lot of the oft reported 'superior" handling qualities of some German aircraft is lost in translation when presented in a 'sim world' due to light control input forces from joysticks. Aircraft like the Yak with their real world less effective controls become more easy to handle at the limit, then get tagged as unrealistic and advantageous in the sim. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to make excuses for any FM errors, but this is a factor that many ignore

  I remember Triplane, Camel,Dr 1, N 28 and Pfalz DXII from Rise of Flight. Same Joystick and Rudder Input devices but some " malignant" flying characteristics.  It should be possible to interpret the properties of the aircraft approximately .

Edited September 12, 2015 by L3Pl4K

[avlSteve]

I had to face the fact that I was the world's worst at gunnery.  I could sneak up right behind a bandit, let loose with everything at 200 meters, and full on queef.  Every control input was exaggerated as I tried in vain to correct.

 

This morning I took another look at the curves and got slapped in the face.  As counter-intuitive as it sounds, a sensitivity setting of 0% is the most sensitive, and 100% is the least sensitive.

 

Now y'all might have to disengage auto wings level if I'm behind you.

[Dakpilot]

Experimenting with noise filter in -- Settings -- Input Devices can also give some good results try 0.4 or 0.5 to start with before fine tuning to get a personal preference suited to your controller

 

problem always remains that realistic setups will never be competitive to 'Tie fighter' setups/handling in MP     with so many available differences in hardware and the need for options, a basic default setting for realistic and equality is much harder than it seems 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[CaK_Rumcajs]

Realistic deflection of control surfaces is a topic that needs attention. In real life there are definitely differences among individual pilots. Some are strong with high endurance, some are not so "gifted". Current BOS solution seems to revolve around hero pilots with unlimited endurance and great strength. That gives some aircraft advantages that were probably very difficult to exploit in real life. Aside from that the current version also seems to have blackout simulation somehow borked and that ofc enters the equation too. BOS simulates control surface stiffening as can be seen especially when flying the Bf 109 at high speed. So the only problem I see is maybe some tuning of these parameters (pilot parameters and control forces vs speed). Also I would love to see these parameters revealed for individual AC. But that is not gonna happen. Openness is not exactly 777's best friend.

[Bert_Foster]

MFG Crosswind pedals go a long way to increasing pedal forces to a more realistic level.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

MFG Crosswind pedals go a long way to increasing pedal forces to a more realistic level.

 

I didn't knew about that model. Very neat product indeed ! 

The price tag is a bit less friendly for EU customers 

[Bert_Foster]

Best set of Flt Sim pedals I have ever used and trully magnificent support as well.

[GP*]

Realistic deflection of control surfaces is a topic that needs attention. In real life there are definitely differences among individual pilots. Some are strong with high endurance, some are not so "gifted". Current BOS solution seems to revolve around hero pilots with unlimited endurance and great strength. That gives some aircraft advantages that were probably very difficult to exploit in real life. Aside from that the current version also seems to have blackout simulation somehow borked and that ofc enters the equation too. BOS simulates control surface stiffening as can be seen especially when flying the Bf 109 at high speed. So the only problem I see is maybe some tuning of these parameters (pilot parameters and control forces vs speed). Also I would love to see these parameters revealed for individual AC. But that is not gonna happen. Openness is not exactly 777's best friend.

 

Excellent post.

 

Even if our input devices can go full-deflection at any time, the resulting control surface deflection in-game should be representative of reality. The game does this nicely at high speed, but at moderate speeds (400-500 kph) pilots still have a ton of control authority when stick forces would start to creep up.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I have a total of one hour (dual) in a P-51C. I was amazed at both how responsive she could be and at the same time how heavy on the controls she was at the same time. Quick movements were possible and the stick distances were small but I had to muscle it a bit. Even a simple aileron roll took some effort.

[GP*]

I have a total of one hour (dual) in a P-51C. I was amazed at both how responsive she could be and at the same time how heavy on the controls she was at the same time. Quick movements were possible and the stick distances were small but I had to muscle it a bit. Even a simple aileron roll took some effort.

 

Indeed. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'd have to put automotive valve springs into my Warthog to get the same feel

[Crump]

A sim can easily ruin itself by improper rudder control modeling.  The rudder is extremely important for getting the maximum maneuvering potential out of an aircraft.

 

Directional control forces are required to be much higher than any other axis.  Standards for minimum control forces range from 40lbs to 60lbs depending on the distance of the pedal and height the pedals are set too.  The height of the seat to the rudder pedals makes the largest difference.  The closer the pedals are to being at the same level as the seat, the more force the pilot can comfortably exert.