Request to the Blond Knight's and Ivan's

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Last night a saw 3 stuka's head out to the front line and an he111 on it's way to a target, there are plenty of posts about how LW don't play the objectives.

 

-snip-

 

Going forward (and likely for a good while...) all I will be flying online are the Ju87 and the He111. 

[Blakhart]

It was one of the [Edited] things you could do Silky.

Take off - when the enemy is attacking field is just risky.

 

It was your fault. :D We had advatage and you though that we will let you hit one of us ???

No chivlarity on OstFront.

Enemy has to be finished as quick as possible.

End of discussion.
Be mature next time m8

BTW

You should think about your mistakes and then assure yourself you will never do it again .

But obviously its easier to come to forum and whin, whin, whin

 

P.s.

This 109 which you see on the left wasnt hit you I was below you attacking from 11 o`clock :D

Awesome kill... Pure fun.

 

This is OstFront.

No mercy for weakness.

 

Best regards from LuftGangsta.

:*

Edited September 9, 2015 by Bearcat
Borderline name calling...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

We had advatage and you though that we will let you hit one of us ???

 

-snip-

 

This is OstFront.

No mercy for weakness.

 

-snip-

 

Flight simulator, war simulator, air arcade, plane game... Whatever you want to call it... Spot on.

 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

It is a WAR flight simulator.

 

 

If you dont use your brain you will be killed.

 

I am here to destroy the enemy by whatever means available.

 

If you are in a fair fight you are doing something wrong.

 

Jungle! !!!

You have a very tainted tainted of what war is then

[avlSteve]

May as well throw my opinion into the ring.  Vulching is for pathetic little sissy girls.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

This, in my view is a mistaken view of what air war is about.

 

If you are solely concentrating on destroying enemy aircraft, even as a fighter pilot, you're not really simulating war.

 

In a real war the mission always takes priority over the destruction of enemy aircraft (and the mission itself is seldom the destruction of enemy aircraft - though there are exceptions)

 

The role of a fighter aircraft is to deny the enemy airspace, destruction of aircraft comes second.

 

If you wanna play at war: Concentrate on the mission.

 

 

LW would regularly send aircraft on free hunting missions where their objective was to destroy enemy aircraft. USAF and RAF and no doubt the VVS did it as well in their own way.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

LW would regularly send aircraft on free hunting missions where their objective was to destroy enemy aircraft. USAF and RAF and no doubt the VVS did it as well in their own way.

But that was their mission.... As they said, there are exceptions. Edited September 8, 2015 by milopugdog

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

But that was their mission.... As they said, there are exceptions.

 

Tactical objectives like Freie Jagd would have been completed at the same time as strategic objectives like "Bomb Red Glory Tank Factory and repel the Soviet counteroffensive at Glorious Red District."

 

-snip-

 

We had advatage and you though that we will let you hit one of us ???

 

-snip-

 

Like Blakhart says here... A target of opportunity is a target of opportunity... One that I will take advantage of every time there is an opportunity. 

 

Now camping an airfield is a little different... That isn't historical or fun for anybody... But nobody has really clarified that that is what they meant by "vulching." 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[[CPT]milopugdog]

 

Like Blakhart says here... A target of opportunity is a target of opportunity... One that I will take advantage of every time there is an opportunity. 

 

Now camping an airfield is a little different... That isn't historical or fun for anybody... But nobody has really clarified that that is what they meant by "vulching." 

+1 on that.

I'd say clearing an airspace of planes just taken off isn't vulching, but rather shooting the guys who haven't even started their engines yet

This will always exist since this an online game. So instead of whining about it; we should just learn to be a team,and become more efficient in preventing it.

Both sides of this argument should probably be more mature about it to be honest. People doing it because they're bored, crap talk by the ones getting strafed. 

The game is what you make it after all 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

You have a very tainted tainted of what war is then

War is Hell.

 

Can you share you romantic view of war???

[[CPT]milopugdog]

War is Hell.

 

Can you share you romantic view of war???

Hm? Oh shoot. must've read that wrong. 5 hours of sleep isn't too good ya know 

[SteelValkyrie]

And as a side note, OP is blaming Lufties exclusively for this kind of behaviour, though the first thing I log into tonight is a Yak dogfighting with 109's over the airfield.. They were shot down by flak.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

And as a side note, OP is blaming Lufties exclusively for this kind of behaviour, though the first thing I log into tonight is a Yak dogfighting with 109's over the airfield.. They were shot down by flak.

 

Indeed, I saw a very similar scene when I logged on WOL Saturday morning... 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

My outsider 2 cents here - this is something I remember back from the Fighter Ace days (and has been happening before I am sure).

 

I've been lurking these forums for long enough, and it is all the same discussion (like that "German Team Why" thread). Most of it boils down to which combat doctrine do people follow, which is by and large what will define all of their operations online.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I understand this is a problem on both sides, but from many years of playing and also following things here, it seems to me it is more of a constant in players who prefer to play German - but again, this is not a rule.

 

Experienced pilots and squadrons from all schools of fighting can assess a tactical situation and take decisions that bring them closer to victory, and this applies to all sides. The addictive use of high altitude patrols and vulching points to a style that has little regard for the missions unfolding though, and this affects skilled pilots too.

 

On a personal level, I am opposed to vulching as a tactic not even because of game play but because it is nearly impossible to actually pin down the enemy's aviation assets at all bases. A very coordinated attack with numbers might achieve that, but this kind of effort and coordination is better used attacking the objectives instead.

 

If to generalise, this is a good representation of both Soviet and German air operations. Both have their pros and cons. Soviet pilots were very objective-minded, and would throw everything they have into the battle to win. They had high losses from this, of course. Germans had that calculated killer mentality, where glory is the goal, inflicting lots of casualties. BUT they often ditched the mission for kills. If you read Soviet pilot memoirs, many will say how confused they were by the German pilots' philosophy. Of course, they used it in their favour since German fighter escort would easily tangle with the first wave of fighters leaving the bombers or transports as sitting ducks for the second group.

 

This is all fair and fine. As it happened however - and this is also reflected online - the German style of fighting became unsustainable and to some extent pointless too. The Soviets, unlike the Germans, were more than ready to fight a war of attrition. Soviet monthly fighter production and pilot formation outnumbered the Germans by thousands. No matter how many planes you destroyed - vulching or not - the Soviets were able to send in more and more and eventually got the job done.

 

Online this is made even more futile because while German pilots online still have the ability to 'replace' themselves quickly, a war of attrition just doesn't work - there are unlimited pilots, and airframes are either unlimited (like in the first post) or easily supplied. Unless the whole of the enemy's fighter AND bomber/attack/transport force is kept on the ground (nearly impossible), you will either a) pin down the fighters but have your objective destroyed by a sizable bomber force, b) pin down bombers to then get swatted like flies from fighters coming after you or, the most common of them all, c) prevent a couple of people from taking off, annoy someone here and there, but ultimately make no relevant contribution to the battle. Is this historical? Yes, of course, the Luftwaffe did that. Sometimes with the right amount of organisation it worked. Most of the time, however, it was just a couple of pilots on a free hunt nailing stragglers flying back from the objective and the like while the Shturmoviks and Peshkas did their job.

 

At the end of the day, the Germans online and in real life had the highest tallies, but the troops were mauled by Soviet attack and bomber aviation, and the German aces were eventually shot down by either fighters of Soviet AAA. The end game is Soviet victory. Whatever you are doing, if you lose the war your efforts go to waste. This is my way of thinking, of course. Everyone is free to play the way they want to, and that is the beauty of it. But just like anything, these actions have consequences - and in war, that is defeat. I base all of this verbose (which, looking back, is way too long) from my observations here on the forums and stats here (http://www.il2.info/missions).

 

I feel people draw too much from the Erich Hartmann & 'In Pursuit' mentality (the latter being a great guide in general, but most people only take the 'fly for kills and kills alone' part of it to heart). Set up a trap and look for the easy kills, stay alive at all costs, and prioritise the air battle as the endgame. To an extent this mentality works well on the pilot's end, but not on a bigger scale.

 

I wish people studied and learned more from Pokryshkin (and Mölders too) instead.

 

 

[Edited]

Edited September 9, 2015 by Bearcat
Check PMs

[Bearcat]

No one called anyone a Nazi that I saw.. maybe I missed something... Part of the problem with what the OP is talking about is... since everyone wants to survive... not too many people fly those Russian birds.. you know the ones with the "biased" FMs... Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Oh, by that I meant that I am not calling anyone a nazi by following the Ostfront=Worstfront line despite it coming straight from Nazi ideology, that's all.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

No one called anyone a Nazi that I saw.. maybe I missed something... Part of the problem with what the OP is talking about is... since everyone wants to survive... not too many people fly those Russian birds.. you know the ones with the "biased" FMs... Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

I'll just fly what ever balances, which is usually Germany when I get WoL. I'll get into my fighter bombing roll in my 190 from there 

I do get greedy though, returning to the combat area 3 times to shoot down a Yak only to get my arse blown from the sky

[Bearcat]

Oh, by that I meant that I am not calling anyone a nazi by following the Ostfront=Worstfront line despite it coming straight from Nazi ideology, that's all.

Fair 'nuff

[6./ZG26_Emil]

No one called anyone a Nazi that I saw.. maybe I missed something... Part of the problem with what the OP is talking about is... since everyone wants to survive... not too many people fly those Russian birds.. you know the ones with the "biased" FMs... Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

 

Well I fly on the WOL server quite a bit and I find the sides balanced and also that the VVS do pretty damn well especially hitting ground targets and winning the battles so I don't think there is a lack of VVS pilots. Also from what I see there aren't that many people who 'want to survive' as pilots from both sides charge at each other and lock horns in dog fights often enough...it's hardly an aerial chess game unless you want to fly that way.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

 

Every time I log on to WOL the teams are equal or in favor VVS... Have you played WOL... Or online at all for that matter..? Nobody plays Eagle's Nest anymore... The days of circlejerking over the Axis team are pretty much over. 

 

For the "neutered" FMs bit... Yak flaps... That is all... [Edited]

Peculiar... Indeed.   

 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Bearcat

[Wulf]

No one called anyone a Nazi that I saw.. maybe I missed something... Part of the problem with what the OP is talking about is... since everyone wants to survive... not too many people fly those Russian birds.. you know the ones with the "biased" FMs... Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

 

 

You need to get out more Bearcat.  Lots of people fly VVS aircraft online.

 

If and when you do go online, have a go at smiting the crappy VVS machines in an uber 109 or better still  one of the uber 190s and then let us know how you get on.  Be sure and post a vid.   

[von_Tom]

@ Lucas - I've never understood why people think the LW fighter pilots ignored the mission objective just to get kills.  For fighter pilots the objective is to get kills.  In gaming parlance it may be a secondary objective to successfully defending a target, or escorting bombers etc, but in essence the objective is to stop the enemy doing what they want, and for a fighter pilot that means you shoot the enemy down.

 

Actually you express the problem for the LW pilots quite well:

 

'...German fighter escort would easily tangle with the first wave of fighters leaving the bombers or transports as sitting ducks for the second group...'

 

You're quite correct, but if the escort is a staffel of 12, and they face a first wave of 20, what else can they do?  they can't just let the bombers be attacked or themselves be shot down.

 

The glory/ego thing is relevant for the most successful fighter pilots of all nations - that's why they were so successful.

 

von Tom

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I think this is not so much a problem of server/game design but more of a player altitude problem.

 

Little improvements tobthr game could be made such as the rough idenificaton of enemies instead of radar.

 

I think the main thing is that its too tempting for some just yo fly to a base and start looking for prey. If pilots took just a fraction more time to fly to an objective, maybe set up a route between objectives they would just as easy find targets esps if flying luft as vvs trend to frequently attack targets. That is far more rewarding as you have actually contributed to the outcome of the game instead of going after effectively worthless targets.

 

Also to those that complain about being vulched. Its not actually that hard to take off from a base with enemy over it set a course out of there with out danger ( as you can see them). If you are hanging around a base that is being raided you are clearly being stupid

[Y-29.Silky]

It was one of the stupidest things you could do Silky.

Take off - when the enemy is attacking field is just risky.

 

It was your fault. :D We had advatage and you though that we will let you hit one of us ???

No chivlarity on OstFront.

Enemy has to be finished as quick as possible.

End of discussion.

Be mature next time m8

BTW

You should think about your mistakes and then assure yourself you will never do it again .

But obviously its easier to come to forum and whin, whin, whin

 

P.s.

This 109 which you see on the left wasnt hit you I was below you attacking from 11 o`clock :D

Awesome kill... Pure fun.

 

This is OstFront.

No mercy for weakness.

 

Best regards from LuftGangsta.

:*

I'm not stupid Blakhart, I knew it was you behind me. As shown in the OP photo, there's 5 Bf-109 F-4's entering the airfield, I did not know (or rather, refused to believe it) you guys were there to farm while my engine was starting up. Let me ask you, what if we all spawned at the Northern airfield after seeing your ''attack''... where would you go next? Please, enlighten me! Surely you wouldn't do the same thing there! I congratulate you on your 10+ victories in the easiest aircraft in the game, against pilots who only made it 10m off the ground, if they could even start their engines in the first place but you did something else, you absolutely killed the server down to 4 people! Have fun buddy. Like I said.. Repeating myself, this isn't war, this is a video game.

 

I bow down to your skills for I am immature.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Feathered_IV]

Crazy thought, but seeing as the Russian side has proven they are dedicated to striking ground targets, couldn't the wetdreamwaffe just change destination and protect their factories and railyards instead? The enemy would come to them. They are a short sprint from their own friendly flak, and they might forestall some of the crushing losses they have been receiving.

[DD_Arthur]

It was one of the stupidest things you could do Silky.

 

Be mature next time m8

 

But obviously its easier to come to forum and whin, whin, whin

 

Best regards from LuftGangsta.

:*

 

Interesting post.  Are you really a "moderator" here?

[Feathered_IV]

Interesting post.  Are you really a "moderator" here?

 

I honestly wondered that too. 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Ahem......

 

 

This is a WW2 combat simulator and I see a lot of airfield strafing going on. Destroying planes is destroying planes which all helps to deny the enemy airspace. If they did it then, then I am doing it now.

Edited September 9, 2015 by DendroAspis

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

@ Lucas - I've never understood why people think the LW fighter pilots ignored the mission objective just to get kills.  For fighter pilots the objective is to get kills.  In gaming parlance it may be a secondary objective to successfully defending a target, or escorting bombers etc, but in essence the objective is to stop the enemy doing what they want, and for a fighter pilot that means you shoot the enemy down.

 

Actually you express the problem for the LW pilots quite well:

 

'...German fighter escort would easily tangle with the first wave of fighters leaving the bombers or transports as sitting ducks for the second group...'

 

You're quite correct, but if the escort is a staffel of 12, and they face a first wave of 20, what else can they do?  they can't just let the bombers be attacked or themselves be shot down.

 

The glory/ego thing is relevant for the most successful fighter pilots of all nations - that's why they were so successful.

 

von Tom

 

von Tom, but at the end of the day this was far from the reality. Most official structures repudiated losing bombers because fighters got tangled in a dogfight they didn't need to engage in.

 

The fighter pilot's instrument to complete their mission is to shoot down enemy aircraft, or to threaten to do so and thus prevent the enemy from completing their objective.

 

However, the fighter pilot's mission is not to get kills or glory - this might have been true of German fighter pilots on an official level, but not the rest.

 

One of the Soviet Union's best fighter pilots was removed from command once and resigned later on because of this. Alexandr Pokryshkin personally ordered Grigoriy Rechkalov removed from commanding the 16th Guards IAP because of his kills/glory mentality after a disastrous sortie.

 

In the Soviet Air Force, if you were flying escort and your bombers got shot down, the flight leader and possibly other pilots involved too would be promptly court-martialed for failing to fulfill their duty and for the unnecessary loss of friendly aircraft. It doesn't matter if the enemy outnumbered you by 4 or 20, you are flying escort, your job is to not go chasing a kill and leave the bombers. Block someone's shot, go back to your position. Block the other's shot, fly back to position immediately. Do this ad eternum until your bombers have landed. Sometimes you can stop them from shooting by shooting them down, other times just feinting an attack will be enough for the enemy to turn away and prepare for another pass, or shift their focus to you. If they do go after you, it is your flight's job to work together and get rid of this guy as fast as possible without leaving the formation unprotected for long. Then go back to position. Rinse. Repeat.

 

Let me pose an example here, two of my most memorable sorties in my whole life, both from Il-2 1946, both in the Kursk operations.

 

One of my favourite sorties was flying close escort to an Il-2 pack of 6, with 6 Yak-1Bs. My pair was flying close escort, the other was on top cover and the third went a little ahead to tangle up with the intercept to get them away from the main group. The Ilyushas went at 500m and I took my wingman at 700-1000m. We circled over them, sweeping from side to side of the formation and making sure to protect the 6th one who was flying a little behind. As expected, the 3rd pair engaged a large number of fighters. Once the formation flew closer, the top cover went in to help. Thanks to the 3rd pair, the battle was raging a few kilometres out from the objective so they didn't threaten the formation itself. They shot down 3 or 4 of them before both 2nd and 3rd pair were shot down themselves. Me and my wingman were still with the Il-2s, flying the same pattern. Once we reached the target, they put on a beautiful show for us. Stuff was blowing up all over the place, and the fighters were still nowhere to be seen. The one disheartening thing about that mission was seeing the straggler get shot down after a direct flak hit during his first pass. I wanted to strafe things nearby but I didn't - hopefully his captors would have mercy. Instead, me and my wingman did short dives to distract the flak. It worked to some extent, and the guns were aimed at us for a few passes. After each dive we climb flying a circle on the outer edge of the target to catch anyone trying to spoil the fun.

 

So far no sign of the fighters, and the job is done after a few minutes. We all flew out, back to sweeping the formation. This time, instead of stretching to the straggler we had to protect the Il-2 flying alone since he had no wingman to concentrate their fire at incoming fighters. The German fighters finally make their way to us dead ahead, all 3 of them that were left, but we're not having it. They come in flying at the same height as the Il-2s, so we use our 400m advantage to cut them off before they had a shot. Once we point straight at them from above, they break away while the Il-2 gunners throw a little symbolic hail of fire at them. We quickly regain our position above the bombers and they prepare for another pass, but before they get set up we start turning to face them, again from above. Presumably low on ammo, low on fuel after taking on 6 Yaks and having been up for a long while, and possibly damaged to some extent, they bug out and we break straight back towards our bombers. The way home was quiet, and after we're too deep into our lines I decide to land one airfield earlier from them because of a) fuel and b) I had to go out grocery shopping. I didn't fire a single shot, I didn't score a single kill, and my group had lost 4 aircraft. However, we accomplished the mission with only one bomber lost - and this one was due to flak. I felt very after that.

 

Then there is case 2: we were 4 La-5s flying at 3000m+ covering for a group of 4 Pe-2s. The way to target was quiet, we were flying between 700-1000m ahead of them and either a little ahead or a little behind them to cover all corners. The Pe-2s start their bombing run and roll over for the dive as we see a group of 4 109s at our height. The following sequence was a matter of 10 seconds, but it felt eternal. One Pe-2 lost a wing to flak. We pointed our noses at the 109s. The other 3 Pe-2s drop their bombs. Two 109s begin to dive after the bombers. We steepen the dive, now going straight towards the bombers to get there ahead. When my bombers, still a good while out, enter my gunsight, I see them start pulling out of the dive. Before I even see tracers, one of them bursts in flames and loses a wing. Tracers appear. A second one catches fire and starts falling down. The third and now last Pe-2 explodes. I see the two 109s pulling out of their dive climbing straight up.

 

There and then, that was it. We had failed the mission as escort fighters. All our bombers were destroyed by the very first wave. My heart sank and I felt angry, one because my team had lost and another because it all happened so fast we couldn't even react. We had lost those bombers at the beginning of the mission though. We focused so much on flying high and fast to get a good bounce on the fighters that we left our bombers wide open for them to pick out of the sky.

When the ordeal was over, that height and speed advantage did help us. Within 2 minutes, we closed a beautifully coordinated dogfight overwhelming the German flight in every single way. While I got no kills, my wingman got 2 and the other pair had the rest. As we started turning to go home, we were met with what would have been the 2nd wave - 4 Fw-190s. We were faster, they were higher. I was leading so I pulled my flight straight up in a chandelle after we merged. The Fokkers split in two sections to each side and started to turn back for us. Halfway through our climb we did a peel off, two to each side too, and the result was the same. This time, I bagged 2 of them and shared a 3rd one that my wingman finished. The leader of the other pair finished off the 4th one.

 

To summarize, we had 4 La-5s, up against 8 opponents. We closed the mission having destroyed the whole of the opposition - 8 kills among us, and I had 2 personally. The enemy did not land a single bullet on us! Ultimately though, our mission was a failure because we caused the loss of 4 bombers and if this had been real life instead of some upset Pe-2 pilots we would have all been court-martialed or at the very least seriously reprimanded.

 

The bottom line: in case 1, my pair had no kills, we lost 4 fighters BUT we brought 5 bombers home and they had the freedom to make multiple passes unopposed, finishing up that goal in a matter of minutes. In case 2, all my flight came back home with 8 kills but at a loss of 3 bombers who only managed to drop half their bomb load and did not have the change to either strafe or bomb the target again. Ultimately, the objective was not met. So no, the fighter pilot's mission is to get their head out of their ass, and get the job done without jeopardizing the battle to get a couple of kills. If your fighter squadron suffers heavy losses while distracting the fighters from your strike packages, and these get to target unchallenged, all the kills on Earth will not prevent them from losing the war.

 

EDIT: I apologise for these enormous posts, I'm usually the 2-paragraph reply type. I'll just quietly go back to reading for now, I think I've spoken enough on the matter

Edited September 9, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[URUAker]

From experience in ´46 i dare to say that no dogfight server will encourage all players to fly in a reallistic manner, only air war persistent campaigns will achieve this style of gameplay with all participants, especially with a dead is dead type of game where you are out of the fight for the rest of the mission and your stats reseted. The best examples are SEOW or Ghost Skies. 

There you get this aerial chess where you may see contacts but wont engage unless it is really necessary. And for sure you won´t dare to loose your life and plane vulching an enemy airfield unless it is an objective, in wich case it will be a very well planed and coordinated attack.

Man i remember planning an airfield attack for a week and practicing it several times before the actual missions, with FW´s strafing and bombing the aaa and then the Ju88s will come in and bomb it to the ground aahh best mission ever

[6./ZG26_Emil]

From experience in ´46 i dare to say that no dogfight server will encourage all players to fly in a reallistic manner, only air war persistent campaigns will achieve this style of gameplay with all participants, especially with a dead is dead type of game where you are out of the fight for the rest of the mission and your stats reseted. The best examples are SEOW or Ghost Skies. 

There you get this aerial chess where you may see contacts but wont engage unless it is really necessary. And for sure you won´t dare to loose your life and plane vulching an enemy airfield unless it is an objective, in wich case it will be a very well planed and coordinated attack.

Man i remember planning an airfield attack for a week and practicing it several times before the actual missions, with FW´s strafing and bombing the aaa and then the Ju88s will come in and bomb it to the ground aahh best mission ever

 

+1

[von_Tom]

Lucas I'll respectfully disagree in part though we may be arguing over semantics more than anything else.  The fighter pilot's mission was exactly what they were told to do.  If they had to do that and were outnumbered, then it is not surprising that they might get kills at the expense of bombers being lost.  That doesn't mean they were hunting personal glory rather than mission success.

 

I would agree with an assertion that some LW pilots sought personal glory but that's a different thing.  The VVS mentality was very much a product of its time (pilots shot down and wounded being treated as traitors etc) and so it was hugely based on the collective (from what I've read anyway).  Anything that hurt the collective, fault or not, was BAD.

 

I've also had some great escort missions and some disastrous ones.  The worst are the ones where the attackers just don't care whether they're shot down or not.  If they carry energy it's really difficult to get them before they shoot down a bomber.

 

I'll leave it there too.

 

von Tom

[coconut]

With all due respect to realism, we are at prime time one and a half servers away from having exactly 0 people playing online. Fun should be the top priority. Efficient vulchers are probably capable of getting their fun some other ways.

 

That being said, I have multiple times found myself drawn to the enemy's airfield as a consequence of regular fighting. What do you do then when you see an aircraft preparing to take off? How high do you have to let them go before you attack?

[Bearcat]

You need to get out more Bearcat.  Lots of people fly VVS aircraft online.

 

If and when you do go online, have a go at smiting the crappy VVS machines in an uber 109 or better still  one of the uber 190s and then let us know how you get on.  Be sure and post a vid.   

 

My post was directly related to the scenario of the OP..

 

Ahem......

 

 

This is a WW2 combat simulator and I see a lot of airfield strafing going on. Destroying planes is destroying planes which all helps to deny the enemy airspace. If they did it then, then I am doing it now.

 

Yes but I bet you that they did not hang around the airfield waiting for pilots to come out of their barracks and take off after the initial attack.. They hit it .. and left...  partly because their job was done whether it was destroying aircraft/equipment on the ground or cratering up the airfield..  and the pilot in the plane could not respawn into another plane...  and often there were also fuel constraints and they wanted to get home alive. What we have in most sims is nothing like reality ... for all those "war is hell" folks.. The OP can correct me if I am wrong... but I am pretty sure that the OP is not talking about attacking an airfield during the course of an airfield attack but the whole camping out thing.. and that is very frustrating... 

 

On a more solution oriented vein.. another good way to stop this is to have a server side setting where as if you do not land.. you do not get your points for that mission. That would give more of an incentive for pilots to behave in the manner in which they claim to be simulating...  One of the problems with more flak is that often flak can slow a PC down considerably..

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Yes but I bet you that they did not hang around the airfield waiting for pilots to come out of their barracks and take off after the initial attack.. They hit it .. and left... 

 

-snip-

 

 

I would still maintain that nobody has clearly indicated that this is what they meant when they used the term "vulching."

 

Rather, everybody here who is "anti-vulching" has indicated an expectation that I and other pilots (Luftwaffe or VVS aside... Both teams do it equally as much.  ) are to let you climb to 2KM, get up to max level speed and line myself up for your bounce... That is plain silly, an impractical expectation of the general playerbase and doesn't sound as entertaining to me as laying in to someone who is taking off while I myself am being bounced by their fighter-cover and made in to swiss by their AAA.

 

Thus, I repeat:

 

-snip-

 

Now camping an airfield is a little different... That isn't historical or fun for anybody... But nobody has really clarified that that is what they meant by "vulching."  

Edited September 9, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

With all due respect to realism, we are at prime time one and a half servers away from having exactly 0 people playing online. Fun should be the top priority. Efficient vulchers are probably capable of getting their fun some other ways.

 

That being said, I have multiple times found myself drawn to the enemy's airfield as a consequence of regular fighting. What do you do then when you see an aircraft preparing to take off? How high do you have to let them go before you attack?

I generally refrain from hitting anyone in the pattern with two exceptions:

 

1. I already caused him considerable damage and/or it is the continuation of a previous chase/combat. I can prevent him from landing any points, because it is a game afterall, and that helps my side from a team standpoint.

 

and

 

2. Based upon previous combat I am already forced across an enemy airfield, where someone is in the pattern as I flee, and it will not force me to deviate (much) from my current altitude or path to escape. Then that sucker is fair game for a single pass.

 

I never spawn camp. There is a certain lack of honor in it. My personal altitude for hitting a departure is around 4-500m. It means he has at least some speed and maneuvering available to him. You can see me tell my allies via chat to let them get up first. It is, after all, an AIR combat simulator/game. If you are just gonna strafe stuff hit the actual ground targets. You can rack up massive points by doing this and help your team by eliminating AAA. I've seen pilots take the top spot with one or fewer A2A kills this way as well if points are your only concern. All that said, I certainly don't think there need to be rules about it. Spawn camping just goes against my sense of fair play but gamers gonna game. It will always be that way in flight simming. Deal with them with the stated tactics posted elsewhere in tis thread and clear your airspace appropriately.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I generally refrain from hitting anyone in the pattern with two exceptions:

 

1. I already caused him considerable damage and/or it is the continuation of a previous chase/combat. I can prevent him from landing any points, because it is a game afterall, and that helps my side from a team standpoint.

 

and

 

2. Based upon previous combat I am already forced across an enemy airfield, where someone is in the pattern as I flee, and it will not force me to deviate (much) from my current altitude or path to escape. Then that sucker is fair game for a single pass.

 

I never spawn camp. There is a certain lack of honor in it. My personal altitude for hitting a departure is around 4-500m. It means he has at least some speed and maneuvering available to him. You can see me tell my allies via chat to let them get up first. It is, after all, an AIR combat simulator/game. If you are just gonna strafe stuff hit the actual ground targets. You can rack up massive points by doing this and help your team by eliminating AAA. I've seen pilots take the top spot with one or fewer A2A kills this way as well if points are your only concern. All that said, I certainly don't think there need to be rules about it. Spawn camping just goes against my sense of fair play but gamers gonna game. It will always be that way in flight simming. Deal with them with the stated tactics posted elsewhere in tis thread and clear your airspace appropriately.

 

This whole post is a fine indication of the differences between camping and vulching though I think it should be "Vulchers gonna vulch. Campers gonna get bored and leave."  

Edited September 9, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[Sunde]

No one called anyone a Nazi that I saw.. maybe I missed something... Part of the problem with what the OP is talking about is... since everyone wants to survive... not too many people fly those Russian birds.. you know the ones with the "biased" FMs... Everyone chooses the German planes... you know the ones with the "neutered" FMs...

 

mighty peculiar ... mighty peculiar....

Much BS, much lol. 

[FTC_Etherlight]

It was one of the [Edited] things you could do Silky.

Take off - when the enemy is attacking field is just risky.

 

It was your fault. :D We had advatage and you though that we will let you hit one of us ???

No chivlarity on OstFront.

Enemy has to be finished as quick as possible.

End of discussion.

Be mature next time m8

BTW

You should think about your mistakes and then assure yourself you will never do it again .

But obviously its easier to come to forum and whin, whin, whin

 

P.s.

This 109 which you see on the left wasnt hit you I was below you attacking from 11 o`clock :D

Awesome kill... Pure fun.

 

This is OstFront.

No mercy for weakness.

 

Best regards from LuftGangsta.

:*

 

That has to be one of the most arrogant and condescending postings I've seen in a long time here. Good job on that, buddy. I see you take pride in your skill to vulch and camp an airfield in your superior plane with superior numbers in a very mature and sportsmanlike manner and do not ignore the problems that ensue for balancing and killing the fun of half the server in favor of your personal cheapy achieved gratification at all. Maybe we should all take your example and kill the server more often then. Hats off to you, Sir.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

As to vulching,

 

I always loosely interpreted it to be aircraft in the strike role primarily engaged in airfield suppression but focused on the aircraft as opposed to the airfield in general.

 

I liked the old '46 servers which limited single engine strike aircraft to bombs and rockets which require more skill than simply strafing. Multi-engine AC were full on including strafing because they were at a (slight in some cases) disadvantage in regard to overall performance. But I also recognize this is a personal choice on my part to play there and set on the server side. If the rules don't exist on the server rules then all's fair in love and war. I'm good either way and don't expect anyone to refrain if it isn't posted.