Effectiveness of 20mm vs Wings..

[Czar66]

Well said Finkeren. About reality, yep, those are true words, but I kept my thoughts into the sim itself.

In BoS, the bombs are set to detonate after they hit the "object" ground for X amount of time (X being the fuse delay value) or instantly. That or the object bomb itself has a detonator simulation that can "erroneously" be triggered by a "object" plane. Those possibilities I took into account for my post, and gladly the sim's ordinances behaves like the real thing.

 

The topic should go back to it's main subject: the 20mm ammunition and those lovely virtual pair of wings that takes us to those 1940s skies and good entertainment.
 

  Great posts Finkeren.

 

Damage model wise, BoS is amazing and I'm very interested in how it actually does come close to real life through these discussions. I'll be reading as proofs and sources comes along.

There are diaries and statements from pilots that shot up another fighter which exploded and they flew through the debris of the aircraft. Not smithereens, still large parts of the aircraft there but just in several large pieces falling to the earth. These were strict fighters, not bomb laden, so it would have only been the fuel tank that could have blown. Rare? Maybe, but it's certainly happened.

 

I did read that or saw in an interview. Very valid point and worth the research.

[Czar66]

So I found this clip. At 1:45 you see some ammunition ripping of what it looks a Fw190's wing. Probably FWs ammunition blow out?

Again, shot by a Tempest, what it looks like a FW-190 at 1:22

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by FeliusCzar

[FuriousMeow]

Here's some gun cam footage, I'm sure everyone's seen. You can see in the beginning a fuel tank get hit and explode, but the plane is still visible so it most likely just blew out a lot of fuselage skin. At 8:46 there's a 190 that gets hit in the outer wing. It looks like it's .50s hitting it, and appears to be the section of the wing the outer MGs reside in so would have most likely been the ammo exploding.

 

 

In BoS, you are more likely to take a wing off when shooting down into it rather than behind. Obviously hitting the main wing spar will weaken the wing, but in aircraft that have ammo or fuel tanks in the wings, they could go up and lead to catastrophic wing failure. You're also most likely to hit those from high angles, rather than from behind.

 

Expecting catastrophic wing failure to occur when hammering from behind is very optimistic, it's most likely to occur in high angle shots that detonate ammo or fuel, or damage the wing's main spar, also when the plane is turning had has stress on the wings.

 

So there's a lot to account for in how much damage should occur or be expected.

So I found this clip. At 1:45 you see some ammunition ripping of what it looks a Fw190's wing. Probably FWs ammunition blow out?

 

Yep, looks like the ammo in the wing went up. Also, it looks like those are wing mounted weapons - based on how many rounds are going out probably .50s.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Those wings of the 190 getting blown off seem quite common in guncam footage, must have hit the 20mm cannon rounds in the wing

[Czar66]

Yep, looks like the ammo in the wing went up. Also, it looks like those are wing mounted weapons - based on how many rounds are going out probably .50s.

 

This footage is probably from a P-51, so you might be right!

 

 

Is ammunition cartridge explosion inside aircraft modeled?

Those wings of the 190 getting blown off seem quite common in guncam footage, must have hit the 20mm cannon rounds in the wing

 

And when it's P-51s firing at them and this happens? It can be a P-38, so IDK...

Edited September 3, 2015 by FeliusCzar

[avlSteve]

 Bullet holes look awful

 

The sad part is that what appears as a black splotch decal is actually a hole in the wing.  Every now and then I'll be able to see all the way through when a hole on the other side lines up.

 

I bet it would look a lot better if there was a dim light source within the wing to accentuate that it isn't just a decal on the surface.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Yep

 

P-51, P-47 or P38 with .50 cal...probably the P-51 though

The sad part is that what appears as a black splotch decal is actually a hole in the wing.  Every now and then I'll be able to see all the way through when a hole on the other side lines up.

 

I bet it would look a lot better if there was a dim light source within the wing to accentuate that it isn't just a decal on the surface.

 

Yeh it's not a 2D texture like some people say

[Y-29.Silky]

it should 9/10 times blow that wing off..

I disagree. Watching gun cam footage of the P-38 (because it has 20mm) and Fw-190's, very rarely do you see wings getting blown off. I recall reading that it took an average of 5-8 rounds of 20mm to bring down a fighter.

And when a wing does get blown off, I think it's mostly due to the fuel tank exploding (which is definitely implemented though I've only see it happen when the aircraft is on fire.)

 

It is pretty funny when I see a 109 pilot complain about paper wings, little did he know he was torn up by a 23mm.

 

Additionally, my wings have been blown off many times in MP. Some people are just too damn accurate.

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Finkeren]

There are diaries and statements from pilots that shot up another fighter which exploded and they flew through the debris of the aircraft. Not smithereens, still large parts of the aircraft there but just in several large pieces falling to the earth. These were strict fighters, not bomb laden, so it would have only been the fuel tank that could have blown. Rare? Maybe, but it's certainly happened.

It's always a stretch to claim that something 'certainly' happened based solely on anecdotal evidence, but I cannot completely dismiss it and say that it could not happen ever, but I really struggle to imagine a situation where you'd have large enough quantities of fuel vapor mixed with air trapped in enclosed spaces to produce a detonation capable of ripping the aircraft into several larger chunks, let alone blow it to smithereens.

[FuriousMeow]

 

Is ammunition cartridge explosion inside aircraft modeled?

 

 

Yes, it currently is. In addition to other ordnance having the potential to be set off.

 

Fire was one thing that did set off bombs in bombers, it happened during WWI and WWII. Aircraft would catch fire, intense heat in the bomb bay or around the bombs - and boom!

It's always a stretch to claim that something 'certainly' happened based solely on anecdotal evidence, but I cannot completely dismiss it and say that it could not happen ever, but I really struggle to imagine a situation where you'd have large enough quantities of fuel vapor mixed with air trapped in enclosed spaces to produce a detonation capable of ripping the aircraft into several larger chunks, let alone blow it to smithereens.

 

Here's something, at 1:45. I can't tell what exactly went up, but it looks like more than just ammo in the wings.

 

http://www.apacheclips.com/boards/media/5888-Best-Gun-Camera-footage-WW2-I-Made-This-From-Hours-of-Footage-Hopefully-its-Feature-Worthy

 

Obviously it isn't in smithereens, I don't think anyone would believe an aircraft would totally vaporize. Even bombed aircraft have large remnants left over.

[FuriousMeow]

One of the neat things in the DM is the ability to have a control surface damaged and jammed in a position which will fight your current inputs. I've had one aileron get jammed and have to fight with it the whole way, I've also had a single elevator get jammed which caused some very interesting flight behavior.

 

In all of the gun cam footage, most downed aircraft are heavily damaged but maintain most of their important parts. Shot out engines, fires, jammed/shot out controls, or pilot kills are the majority. There's the occasional wing folding and fluttering away, but most of those I've seen have been the same exact footage just repeated ad nauseam in all "original" gun cam footage from WWII.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

The physics-based DM in this sim is spot on and generally phenomenal - the bending, breaking, jamming, etc. is awesome. Some things like over-G scenarios on an undamaged wing seem to be nonexistent or needing work but even so... The ballistics modeling is great if maybe a little underwhelming for the cannons in the game... I just wish it looked better. 

 

A fine example is the rear half of the fuselage for the 109s... It has no spars, a generic gray interior texture, no mechanical bits (rods, wires, pulleys, lines, valves, radio/oxygen equipment, etc.) or anything else really. (Please note that I am flying the 109s 95% of my play time and any close inspection to the internal physical modeling of other aircraft may have passed me by, thus, I can only vouch for what I have personally observed.)

 

The exploded model of the LaGG-3 is one of the factors that sold me on buying in to the EA (I am a huge geek for exploded diagrams ) and I feel like I still haven't seen the quality of that render in the game itself. (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LvuAlIfWIPQ/maxresdefault.jpg)

 

I know that improved damage decals/visual modeling is likely low on the list of priorities but I hope that improvements will be made down the road.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[FuriousMeow]

Some things like over-G scenarios on an undamaged wing seem to be nonexistent or needing work but even so...

 

Go to 5000meters set horiz stab to +2 (or whatever positive incidence is), dive your 109 to 600km/h, pull back.

Edited September 3, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[Y-29.Silky]

A Yak did this to me of all things, I thought it would have been a Lagg.

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Wulf]

Here's some gun cam footage, I'm sure everyone's seen. You can see in the beginning a fuel tank get hit and explode, but the plane is still visible so it most likely just blew out a lot of fuselage skin. At 8:46 there's a 190 that gets hit in the outer wing. It looks like it's .50s hitting it, and appears to be the section of the wing the outer MGs reside in so would have most likely been the ammo exploding.

 

 

In BoS, you are more likely to take a wing off when shooting down into it rather than behind. Obviously hitting the main wing spar will weaken the wing, but in aircraft that have ammo or fuel tanks in the wings, they could go up and lead to catastrophic wing failure. You're also most likely to hit those from high angles, rather than from behind.

 

Expecting catastrophic wing failure to occur when hammering from behind is very optimistic, it's most likely to occur in high angle shots that detonate ammo or fuel, or damage the wing's main spar, also when the plane is turning had has stress on the wings.

 

So there's a lot to account for in how much damage should occur or be expected.

 

Yep, looks like the ammo in the wing went up. Also, it looks like those are wing mounted weapons - based on how many rounds are going out probably .50s.

 

 

Is it my imagination or did someone who shouldn't shoot down a Mosquito at 1.10 in the first vid. ....... 

[Gunsmith86]

^^Yes

[Y-29.Silky]

Is it my imagination or did someone who shouldn't shoot down a Mosquito at 1.10 in the first vid. ....... 

 

VIII Figher Command

Combat Film No.18991

2/Lt. R.E. Lewis. 335SQDN 4th FG

6th October, 1944

Registration: NS522

Fatalities: 2

Departure airport:B.58 Melsbroek/Brussels

Location:Missing - North Sea near Helgoland

-----------------------------------------------------------

Failed to return from reconnaissance NS522, a 140 Sqn machine, is described as having been shot down on 6 October 1944 by P-51s of the 4th FG,(335 Squadron 2/Lt RE Lewis) who claimed an Me 410 near Helgoland.

Crew:

F/Lt (46333) Alfred Ernest PALMER (pilot) RAF - killed

F/Sgt (1335101) Douglas GARDNER (nav.) RAFVR - killed, age 21

 

 

War is hell.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[TP_Jacko]

The interesting thing to me is how long the fighters are firing their guns for in CloD RAF types you run out of ammo pretty fast so I have kept to short bursts of not more than one second may need to re-think that 

[Y-29.SugaBizkit]

VIII Figher Command

Combat Film No.18991

2/Lt. R.E. Lewis. 335SQDN 4th FG

6th October, 1944

Registration: NS522

Fatalities: 2

Departure airport:B.58 Melsbroek/Brussels

Location:Missing - North Sea near Helgoland

-----------------------------------------------------------

Failed to return from reconnaissance NS522, a 140 Sqn machine, is described as having been shot down on 6 October 1944 by P-51s of the 4th FG,(335 Squadron 2/Lt RE Lewis) who claimed an Me 410 near Helgoland.

Crew:

F/Lt (46333) Alfred Ernest PALMER (pilot) RAF - killed

F/Sgt (1335101) Douglas GARDNER (nav.) RAFVR - killed, age 21

 

 

War is hell.

 

 

[SR-F_Winger]

Here's some gun cam footage, I'm sure everyone's seen. You can see in the beginning a fuel tank get hit and explode, but the plane is still visible so it most likely just blew out a lot of fuselage skin. At 8:46 there's a 190 that gets hit in the outer wing. It looks like it's .50s hitting it, and appears to be the section of the wing the outer MGs reside in so would have most likely been the ammo exploding.

 

 

In BoS, you are more likely to take a wing off when shooting down into it rather than behind. Obviously hitting the main wing spar will weaken the wing, but in aircraft that have ammo or fuel tanks in the wings, they could go up and lead to catastrophic wing failure. You're also most likely to hit those from high angles, rather than from behind.

 

Expecting catastrophic wing failure to occur when hammering from behind is very optimistic, it's most likely to occur in high angle shots that detonate ammo or fuel, or damage the wing's main spar, also when the plane is turning had has stress on the wings.

 

So there's a lot to account for in how much damage should occur or be expected.

 

Yep, looks like the ammo in the wing went up. Also, it looks like those are wing mounted weapons - based on how many rounds are going out probably .50s.

That first video. Look how that 190 at minute 08:20 maneuvers at low speed and reamins totally controllable. Heck almost doing a cobra maneuver:) And then look at how the 190 in BOS handles at low speed. Riddiculous:P

Edited September 4, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[Finkeren]

That first video. Look how that 190 at minute 08:20 maneuvers at low speed and reamins totally controllable. Heck almost doing a cobra maneuver:) And then look at how the 190 in BOS handles at low speed. Riddiculous:P

First: That's nothing close to a cobra.

 

Second: To me it looked like a complete loss of control (maybe the pilot got wounded in that instance) Why else is the pilot bailing out the second after?

[Gunsmith86]

The interesting thing to me is how long the fighters are firing their guns for in CloD RAF types you run out of ammo pretty fast so I have kept to short bursts of not more than one second may need to re-think that 

 

He isn´t firing that long the camera runs longer than he is firing his guns.

[Wulf]

What surprises me about these images is the failure of so many of the pilots in these videos, to react.  Many of them continue to fly straight and level, even thought they are clearly being hit.  I guess you'd have to put it down to a lack of training and experience.  Probably the first and last time most of them ever got in a fight.  I find this sort of thing difficult to watch.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

What surprises me about these images is the failure of so many of the pilots in these videos, to react.  Many of them continue to fly straight and level, even thought they are clearly being hit.  I guess you'd have to put it down to a lack of training and experience.  Probably the first and last time most of them ever got in a fight.  I find this sort of thing difficult to watch.

 

exactly my thoughts....

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

We dont even have the .50 cals yet in game and there are already such discussions, cant wait for the old and standard .50 cal vs 20 mm topics. Oh dear, so many of them on old Il-2 forums.

 

Anyway, I thought in this discussion it would be best to call an expert who actually had something to do with weapons and research over the topic of aircraft explosions, he wrote some time ago a book titled : "Exploding Fuel Tanks - Saga of Technology That Changed the Course of the Pacific Air War"

Here is a Chapter 1 which is a general introduction and has nothing to with Japanese, but on contrary has a lot about European and American discoveries, tests, combat experiences, etc. :

http://explodingfueltanks.com/pdf/ExplodingFuelTanks-chapter1.pdf

 

Hope everyone will find something helpful there. 

 

 

What surprises me about these images is the failure of so many of the pilots in these videos, to react.  Many of them continue to fly straight and level, even thought they are clearly being hit.  I guess you'd have to put it down to a lack of training and experience.  Probably the first and last time most of them ever got in a fight.  I find this sort of thing difficult to watch.

 

Or they are dead by then ... or paralyzed by fear. That may happen too, its reality after all, not a video game. 

Edited September 4, 2015 by =LD=Hiromachi

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

exactly my thoughts....

 

Deer in the headlights... Humans typically lock up under the immediate application of a life-threatening external stimulus...

[Y-29.Silky]

What surprises me about these images is the failure of so many of the pilots in these videos, to react.  Many of them continue to fly straight and level, even thought they are clearly being hit.  I guess you'd have to put it down to a lack of training and experience.  Probably the first and last time most of them ever got in a fight.  I find this sort of thing difficult to watch.

 

Watching it closely I think it just seems that way because they're being shot from their 6. There's quite a few who are banking.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Wulf]

Interestingly, when you watch new guys on multi-player they sometimes display similar behaviour.  They're being shot but stay fixedly on course seemly unable to react.  When I think back to my first experiences on IL-2  I'd sort of shut down in those situations as my brain attempted, all too slowly, to process what was happening.  One can only imagine how much more difficult it must be when it's more than just ego on the line.

[Y-29.Silky]

Interestingly, when you watch new guys on multi-player they sometimes display similar behaviour.  They're being shot but stay fixedly on course seemly unable to react.  When I think back to my first experiences on IL-2  I'd sort of shut down in those situations as my brain attempted, all too slowly, to process what was happening.  One can only imagine how much more difficult it must be when it's more than just ego on the line.

 

Absolutely correct! That was the case for the majority of aircraft shot down during WWII; the shock/freeze/panic in a moments notice!

[Alkyan]

Or maybe they have the bos bug sound?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

What surprises me about these images is the failure of so many of the pilots in these videos, to react.  Many of them continue to fly straight and level, even thought they are clearly being hit.  I guess you'd have to put it down to a lack of training and experience.  Probably the first and last time most of them ever got in a fight.  I find this sort of thing difficult to watch.

 

What is just as bad to watch (when you spend enough time trawling through guncam footage) is that blue on blue on a Mosquito 

[Sokol1]

These gun cam is not in slow motion?

 

Look at this P-38 across the screen at ~0:38 - his speed looks like these wire suspend model planes on old movies.

 

[bzc3lk]

 is that blue on blue on a Mosquito 

 

  Yep

Edited September 5, 2015 by bzc3lk