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Is there any better Joystick as the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 ???

JG4_Nemesis

By JG4_Nemesis
in Hardware, Software and Controllers

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BlueHeron

BlueHeron

Posted
Posted

After more than 10 years of service, my CH Fighterstick is starting to send flaky signals.  

 

So before ordering a new one, I dug out the old MSFFB2 and man am I glad.  I never really used it after switching to full HOTAS, but with the CH throttle and Saitek combat pedals it makes a great combo!  :D  My flying and gunnery instantly got better with the FFB.  Just hope the stick lasts a bit longer.

  • 1 month later...
goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't know about the CH Fighterstick, but the Thrustmaster F-16, F-22, Cougar, and Warthog use three 8-bit shift registers to cut the grip wiring down to five conductors. An old SNES controller uses the exact same principle. To read any of these sticks you need to give it +5V, ground, a clock source, a data line, and a select line. It's completely compatible with SPI (serial peripheral interface). On the old F-16 I identified the brown wire as +5V, green as ground, orange as clock, red as enable, and yellow as serial data out.

 

I think the cheapest project board with SPI is a Teensy 2.0, for $16. It's programmable with the Arduino IDE and comes with a USB joystick profile ready-built, so it could hardly be easier. brown and green go to the +5V and GND pins, orange goes to SCLK (pin 1), red goes to SS (pin 0), and yellow goes to MISO (pin 3).

 

Then I used this very simple code:

 

 

/* USB FLCS Grip
   You must select Joystick from the "Tools > USB Type" menu
*/

// Buttons are muxed into shift registers, use the SPI protocol to read them
#include <SPI.h>

const int slaveSelectPin = 0;

unsigned int buttonInputs1;   // data read from SPI
unsigned int buttonInputs2;
unsigned int buttonInputs3;

// Use some macros to clean things up
#define S3   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x80)    /* Pinky Switch */
#define TG1  !(buttonInputs1 & 0x40)    /* Trigger 1 */
#define TG2  !(buttonInputs1 & 0x20)    /* Trigger 2 */
#define S1   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x10)    /* Nose Wheel Steering */
#define S4   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x08)    /* Paddle Switch */
#define S2   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x04)    /* Pickle */

#define H1D  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x80)    /* Trim */
#define H1R  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x40)
#define H1U  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x20)
#define H1L  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x10)
#define H4U  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x08)    /* CMS */
#define H4L  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x04)
#define H4D  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x02)
#define H4R  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x01)

#define H3D  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x80)    /* DMS */
#define H3R  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x40)
#define H3U  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x20)
#define H3L  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x10)
#define H2D  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x08)    /* TMS */
#define H2R  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x04)
#define H2U  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x02)
#define H2L  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x01)

// setup() runs once on boot
void setup() {
  // set the slaveSelectPin as an output:
  pinMode (slaveSelectPin, OUTPUT);
  // start the SPI library:
  SPI.begin();
  // configure the joystick to manual send mode.  This gives precise
  // control over when the computer receives updates, but it does
  // require you to manually call Joystick.send_now().
  Joystick.useManualSend(true);
}


// loop() runs for as long as power is applied
void loop() {
  // take the SS pin low to select the chip
  digitalWrite(slaveSelectPin,LOW);
  // send a value of 0 to read the SPI bytes
  buttonInputs1 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  buttonInputs2 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  buttonInputs3 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  // take the SS pin high to de-select the chip:
  digitalWrite(slaveSelectPin,HIGH); 

  // Write to joystick buttons
  Joystick.button(1,  TG1);
  Joystick.button(2,  S2);
  Joystick.button(3,  S3);
  Joystick.button(4,  S4);
  Joystick.button(5,  S1);
  Joystick.button(6,  TG2);
  Joystick.button(7,  H2U);
  Joystick.button(8,  H2R);
  Joystick.button(9,  H2D);
  Joystick.button(10, H2L);
  Joystick.button(11, H3U);
  Joystick.button(12, H3R);
  Joystick.button(13, H3D);
  Joystick.button(14, H3L);
  Joystick.button(15, H4U);
  Joystick.button(16, H4R);
  Joystick.button(17, H4D);
  Joystick.button(18, H4L);
  //Joystick.button(19, H1U);
  //Joystick.button(20, H1R);
  //Joystick.button(21, H1D);
  //Joystick.button(22, H1L);
  
  // Determine Joystick Hat Position
  int angle = -1;

  if (H1U) {
    if (H1R) {
      angle = 45;
    } else if (H1L) {
      angle = 315;
    } else {
      angle = 0;
    }
  } else if (H1D) {
    if (H1R) {
      angle = 135;
    } else if (H1L) {
      angle = 225;
    } else {
      angle = 180;
    }
  } else if (H1R) {
    angle = 90;
  } else if (H1L) {
    angle = 270;
  }
  Joystick.hat(angle);
  
  // Because setup configured the Joystick manual send,
  // the computer does not see any of the changes yet.
  // This send_now() transmits everything all at once.
  Joystick.send_now();
}

 

Connect the chip via USB, program it, and you're done. The Teensy board is teensy, so it easily fits anywhere in the base of the MSFFB2. Just cut a hole for an extra USB cable.  The code should be similar to read a Cougar or Warthog stick, but I think they have slightly different button assignment. You might need to tweak the buttonInputs1 macros for the newer sticks.

 

Physically mounting the grip was just a matter of cutting both shafts, boring out the F-16 shaft, smoothing out the MSFFB2 shaft, and epoxying them together. If you wanted to be really fancy you could fashion a connector to use an unmodified Cougar or Warthog grip.  The grip is slightly unbalanced, and there might be room to put some lead counterweight in the base, but it works fine with the power on.

 

The only difficult part is the little infrared sensor the MSFFB2 uses to turn the force on and off. I replaced this with a switch on the base. For some reason it wouldn't work when I just used the switch in place of the phototransistor, and I eventually got fed up with trying to be clever. I desoldered the infrared LED and photodiode from the circuit board in the MSFFB2 grip and put them on a little board facing each other, and I wired the switch in so it cuts power to the LED when I want to turn FFB on.  You can leave all of this out and it will work fine, but the FFB motors will be permanently on. You'll have to pull the power cable between sessions to power it down.

 

Since the twist is part of the grip itself and not the base, my stick no longer twists. I just grounded the sense pin, but what I should have done was put in a voltage divider so it always thinks it's centered. Right now it always thinks it's twisted full left. If you leave it open it will float back and forth and make it hard to assign axes in games. I think the axis can be disabled in the Windows registry (the same way I assigned the ministick on my X52 throttle to axes), but I haven't needed to bother.

 

Thanks for all this valuable info. I've just gotten into flight simming in the past year and recently bought a Sidewinder FF2, Thrustmaster F-16 stick and Mark II WCS throttle off ebay. ($90 for the lot of it, not bad if I can get it all set up) I'm looking at doing the same mod as you have, I was originally looking at getting a Leo Bodnar board for the supposed ease of use, but decided to get a Teensy 2.0 ++ as it was dramatically cheaper. I'm hoping I would also be able to wire the WCS throttle buttons and axes through the same board as the F-16 buttons. (hence I got the 2.0 ++ for the extra pins as I originally thought I would have to wire each button individually) Would this cause any problems? There would only be 2 axes since I would be keeping everything on the FF2 but the grip and the stick buttons would basically just be like more buttons on the throttle.

 

I know absolutely nothing about wiring though I should be able to figure out Arduino.  I'm hoping someone can help me understand more what I'm looking at or point me to some relevant info. (not many posts online about people converting the WCS throttle unit) To save myself from soldering and buying a breadboard, I bought the version of the Teensy board with pin headers and I have some Dupont cable and headers that attach to the joystick/throttle wires. (I'm going to have to extend the wires from one of the units so they can sit apart on the desk) After reading your reply, I'm pretty sure I understand how to wire the stick buttons, but the throttle has 4 additional wire (9 total) connected to the throttle buttons. There are about the same amount of buttons on the throttle as the joystick though, but It does have a 3 way rocker switch on it, could that be related to the extra wires? How would I be able to figure out what the throttle's wiring is? (couldn't find a wiring diagram anywhere online) Additionally, there are of course the actual pots for the throttle axis (3 wires) as well as a 2-way and a 3-way switch on the throttle panel. I believe the switches were modded in as my stick/throttle had a digital gameport conversion mod by one 'Bob Church' and switch the output between digital/analogue gameport, but I'm hoping I could maybe just have 2 extra switches to use in sims. (especially the very useful 3 way rocker switch) The info that came with the Teensy board and on their site is mostly about programming and has very little to do with wiring, so I'm lost as far as how to wire the throttle. 

 

The throttle also has 2 physical indents (one each on the high and low end) in the throttle wheel/gear that are meant to feel like an idle and afterburner/WEP or something similar. It's just a plastic piece that slips into the indent grooves so I don't think it ever had any actual function, but would there be some way I could create 'profiles' for different sims/planes where the axis area under/above the indents could be recognized as a button press+throttle or something so that in-sim idle/AB/WEP functions could actually be triggered?   

 

I realize this post was over 2 years ago, but as this is the only example I've found similar to what I want to do, I'm hoping someone may still be able to offer me some help. 

 

Thanks in advance, 

Jacob 

Edited by goodpoints
Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

a Sidewinder FF2, Thrustmaster F-16 stick and Mark II WCS throttle off ebay.

but decided to get a Teensy 2.0 ++ as it was dramatically cheaper. 

 

For Teensy 2.0 you can use the MMjoy2* firmware, that's come with support for Tm F16/F22/Cougar/Warhog shitfer register (plus support for Encoder, 8 axis and buttons), making wiring just plug 5 wires from grip in the board.

 

 

 

 

 I'm hoping I would also be able to wire the WCS throttle buttons and axes through the same board as the F-16 buttons. (hence I got the 2.0 ++ for the extra pins as I originally thought I would have to wire each button individually) Would this cause any problems?

 

 

No problems,  you can use just one board to wire a joystick,  throttle, pedals - your limit is 8 axis.

 

WCS is a 1 axis device (throttle only), but you can add rotaries in base for use for radiator control, etc, if want.

 

In MS FF2 board you need maintain plugged the axis, and 1 button - (if plan use the joystick with DCS helicopters, for trim), the buttons/HAT from F22 grip wire in Teensy.

 

 

 

I know absolutely nothing about wiring though I should be able to figure out Arduino.  I'm hoping someone can help me understand more what I'm looking at or point me to some relevant info. (not many posts online about people converting the WCS throttle unit) To save myself from soldering and buying a breadboard, I bought the version of the Teensy board with pin headers and I have some Dupont cable and headers that attach to the joystick/throttle wires. (I'm going to have to extend the wires from one of the units so they can sit apart on the desk) After reading your reply, I'm pretty sure I understand how to wire the stick buttons, but the throttle has 4 additional wire (9 total) connected to the throttle buttons. There are about the same amount of buttons on the throttle as the joystick though, but It does have a 3 way rocker switch on it, could that be related to the extra wires? How would I be able to figure out what the throttle's wiring is? (couldn't find a wiring diagram anywhere online) 

 

Forget how WCS wire is, the actual (gameport) wiring don't fit with the new USB controller.

 

My advise in this case is, erase all internal wires, circuit boards, leave only buttons and pot', then wire these in the new controller (Teensy) accord their needs.

 

Why this -"but the throttle has 4 additional wire (9 total) connected to the throttle buttons."   This additional wires are for WCS controller that will by no longer used.

Buttons need be connected with 2 wires in matrix format in Teensy digital inputs.

 

 

 

 a 2-way and a 3-way switch on the throttle panel. 

 

In WCS the 2 way switch on base are used for programming functions (key board emulation), and the 2 way switch on throttle for select mode1, mode 2, mode 3 of this keyboard emulation that in this old Tm controller are done in internal EPROM.

 

You can't use this in this way with Teensy board, but can use this switches as ordinary buttons (ON-OFF and ON-OFF-ON).

 

In a WCS I start modernize for USB I remove this 3 way switch from throttle - is awkward use in this location - fill the hole and install a 4 way HAT switch borrowed from other deceased joystick, the 3 way switch will be installed on base, together with the 2 way switch. But is matter of preference, if want leave the switches in their actual places, the K.I.S.S.  :)

 

What you need understand first is: how Teensy button matrix work- the lines x columns connections and diode usage (the rule is 1 for each button), and how you wire the stick/throttle buttons in this.

 

In resume your plan is wire the F16 grip buttons/HATS on Teensy board and install this grip on MS FF2?

 

And additionally wire the WCS throttle axis and buttons to the same Teensy board?

 

*Obvious instead use MMjoy2 firmware you can create you own Arduino code, but MMjoy is a "joystick" firmware that has been developed at years, is modern: 12 bits, have some special functions (e.g. encoder support), is free, easy to use (write the firmware in Arduino board).

Edited by Sokol1
goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted (edited)

For Teensy 2.0 you can use the MMjoy2* firmware, that's come with support for Tm F16/F22/Cougar/Warhog shitfer register (plus support for Encoder, 8 axis and buttons), making wiring just plug 5 wires from grip in the board.

 

Ah cool. Sounds very easy, thanks for the heads up.

 

 

No problems,  you can use just one board to wire a joystick,  throttle, pedals - your limit is 8 axis.

 

WCS is a 1 axis device (throttle only), but you can add rotaries in base for use for radiator control, etc, if want.

 

In MS FF2 board you need maintain plugged the axis, and 1 button - (if plan use the joystick with DCS helicopters, for trim), the buttons/HAT from F22 grip wire in Teensy.

 

 

 

Yes, I would just be adding the one throttle axis to the teensy board. ("axes" plural was a typo) Though my pedals are CH analogue gameport that I have working with a gameport-USB adaptor and they seem to have pretty good response without any spiking. (though they don't always return exactly to center when both pedals are let off but this is solved easily with a 3% deadzone) Could rewiring these to USB give significant performance improvement where it would be worth doing eventually?

 

To answer a question you asked later in your reply, yes my plan is to keep everything on the MSFF2 wired except for the grip buttons and twist axis which I'll be replacing with the F-16 grip. (with no need to replace the twist) So the 4 buttons and the slider on the base would still be there. Why do you say it's necessary to keep 1 FF2 button wired though? I do fly DCS helicopters, so would I not be able to activate trimmed position of the FF motors with a button that isn't wired to the MSFF2 board? (a button wired to Teensy, or a keyboard key for example)

 

 

 

Forget how WCS wire is, the actual (gameport) wiring don't fit with the new USB controller.

 

My advise in this case is, erase all internal wires, circuit boards, leave only buttons and pot', then wire these in the new controller (Teensy) accord their needs.

 

Why this -"but the throttle has 4 additional wire (9 total) connected to the throttle buttons."   This additional wires are for WCS controller that will by no longer used.

Buttons need be connected with 2 wires in matrix format in Teensy digital inputs.

 

 

Yes, I was assuming that the WCS would also use the 8-bit shift register wiring that the f-16 stick uses, but upon opening it up again (and in the process snapping one of the wires off its solder, so there goes my plans for a solderless project   :rolleyes:) I do see that each button is wired individually.

 

In WCS the 2 way switch on base are used for programming functions (key board emulation), and the 2 way switch on throttle for select mode1, mode 2, mode 3 of this keyboard emulation that in this old Tm controller are done in internal EPROM.

 

You can't use this in this way with Teensy board, but can use this switches as ordinary buttons (ON-OFF and ON-OFF-ON).

 

In a WCS I start modernize for USB I remove this 3 way switch from throttle - is awkward use in this location - fill the hole and install a 4 way HAT switch borrowed from other deceased joystick, the 3 way switch will be installed on base, together with the 2 way switch. But is matter of preference, if want leave the switches in their actual places, the K.I.S.S.   :)

 

That was my idea, to use them as ordinary programmable buttons. I would probably just leave them where they're at though, this project is already turning out to be a hell of a lot more work than I naively thought it might be.

 

 

What you need understand first is: how Teensy button matrix work- the lines x columns connections and diode usage (the rule is 1 for each button), and how you wire the stick/throttle buttons in this.

 

In resume your plan is wire the F16 grip buttons/HATS on Teensy board and install this grip on MS FF2?

 

And additionally wire the WCS throttle axis and buttons to the same Teensy board?

 

*Obvious instead use MMjoy2 firmware you can create you own Arduino code, but MMjoy is a "joystick" firmware that has been developed at years, is modern: 12 bits, have some special functions (e.g. encoder support), is free, easy to use (write the firmware in Arduino board).

 

 

 

MMJoy sounds like a good idea as it seems like it would save me some programming work. And here's what I mean when I said I have no knowledge of wiring: I'm just not getting how the concept of matrix wiring looks like. The tutorials on Teensy are mostly orientated around programming rather than the actual wiring. Do you think you could provide me a quick example of how I would wire a button? Here's the pin assignment diagram as provided in the Teensy package (I figured the C diagram would be more comprehensive, though there is a diagram for Arduino use on the reverse side if that would be more relevant):

 

ryuAc1q.jpg

 

Thanks so much for your help.

Edited by goodpoints
doveman

doveman

Posted
Posted

No problems,  you can use just one board to wire a joystick,  throttle, pedals - your limit is 8 axis.

 

WCS is a 1 axis device (throttle only), but you can add rotaries in base for use for radiator control, etc, if want.

 

In MS FF2 board you need maintain plugged the axis, and 1 button - (if plan use the joystick with DCS helicopters, for trim), the buttons/HAT from F22 grip wire in Teensy.

 

I thought that was the case too but someone on the DCS forum says he's modded his FFB2 with a different handle and didn't need to retain any of the FFB2 buttons for trim.

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

 (and in the process snapping one of the wires off its solder, so there goes my plans for a solderless project   :rolleyes:) I do see that each button is wired individually.

 

Well, is not possible do this kind of project - modernize a old joystick with new USB controller without use solder.

 

 

 

I'm just not getting how the concept of matrix wiring looks like. The tutorials on Teensy are mostly orientated around programming rather than the actual wiring. Do you think you could provide me a quick example of how I would wire a button?

 

 

 

With Teensy++2.0 and MMjoy2 firmware you can use:

 

Up to 8 axis -  using the inputs marked "AI" in the Teensy++2.0 drawing bellow. The Power (+5V) and GND pins can be shared with this 8 axis.

 

And up to 96 buttons, in inputs combining Line x Column Matrix.
With MMjoy2 firmware the pinout designation for buttons is flexible, done in MMjoy2 JoySetup configurator.
 
Any pin maked as "BM" can be used for Line or Column of button matrix.
96 buttons can be a 8 Lines x 12 Column matrix, as marked in the picture, Lines in left side, Columns in right side.
 
But if you want use only a 6x6* matrix with Lines and Columns pins only in left side of the board you can, just define this on JoySetup Configurator.

 

* Note - Windows DX Direct Input drivers (Game Controller) see up to 32 buttons plus HAT (4 buttons with 8 positions), totaling 36 buttons, or a 6x6 matrix.

If you plan use more than this 32 (+HAT) buttons will be need use a keymapper (SVMapper, Joy2Key, Xpadder, Autohotkey...) to translate the buttons above # 32 in keyboard press for games.

 

Teensy_2_0.jpg

 
In this drawing you see how wire a potentiometer (can be a HALL sensor) and how wire the first 3 buttons of Matrix. To wire others buttons follow the same principle.
 
In a 6x6 matrix each individual Line wire goes for one pin of 6 buttons and each Column wire goes for the other pin of same buttons, so after wire the first 6 button you notice that the Line wires need be shared with the next buttons row.
 
Yes, sound confuse, but in practice is "simple". :)
 
The diode 1N4148  (one for each button) is need to avoid the "keyboard ghosting - typical of matrix.
 
 

 

Edited by Sokol1
Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)
(can be a HALL sensor)

 

BTW - HALL sensor has a different pinout order than potentiometer - for these check model datasheet before wiring.

Edited by Sokol1
goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted

Well, is not possible do this kind of project - modernize a old joystick with new USB controller without use solder.

 

 

 

 

With Teensy++2.0 and MMjoy2 firmware you can use:

 

Up to 8 axis -  using the inputs marked "AI" in the Teensy++2.0 drawing bellow. The Power (+5V) and GND pins can be shared with this 8 axis.

 

And up to 96 buttons, in inputs combining Line x Column Matrix.

With MMjoy2 firmware the pinout designation for buttons is flexible, done in MMjoy2 JoySetup configurator.

 

Any pin maked as "BM" can be used for Line or Column of button matrix.

96 buttons can be a 8 Lines x 12 Column matrix, as marked in the picture, Lines in left side, Columns in right side.

 

But if you want use only a 6x6* matrix with Lines and Columns pins only in left side of the board you can, just define this on JoySetup Configurator.

 

* Note - Windows DX Direct Input drivers (Game Controller) see up to 32 buttons plus HAT (4 buttons with 8 positions), totaling 36 buttons, or a 6x6 matrix.

If you plan use more than this 32 (+HAT) buttons will be need use a keymapper (SVMapper, Joy2Key, Xpadder, Autohotkey...) to translate the buttons above # 32 in keyboard press for games.

 

Teensy_2_0.jpg

 

free upload image

 

In this drawing you see how wire a potentiometer (can be a HALL sensor) and how wire the first 3 buttons of Matrix. To wire others buttons follow the same principle.

 

In a 6x6 matrix each individual Line wire goes for one pin of 6 buttons and each Column wire goes for the other pin of same buttons, so after wire the first 6 button you notice that the Line wires need be shared with the next buttons row.

 

Yes, sound confuse, but in practice is "simple". :)

 

The diode 1N4148  (one for each button) is need to avoid the "keyboard ghosting - typical of matrix.

As much as I enjoy crimping wires, I suppose it's time to just get a soldering iron.

 

Thank you so much for the info! I'm pretty sure I understand the basics and what I'm supposed to do to wire the buttons. So I can still wire the joystick buttons in SPI and do the throttle buttons individually in matrix? So if there were 3 more buttons for a total of 6 in the picture than they would all be Column 1? And all 6 diodes attached to those buttons are wired to each other in sequence and then to the single pin as shown in the diagram? So to add a second column of 6 buttons would I then wire each switch line to the same 6 pins as Column 1, but then wire the diodes for Column 2 to Pin B5 in the diagram?

 

For the diodes, do you recommend that specific brand/model, or is it just a certain type I can look for locally?

 

So I tried putting the MMJoy firmware on the Teensy 2.0++ but it doesn't seem to have worked. The device is visible in device manager/JoySetup,I bootload it by pressing the button on the board, it dissapears for a second from JoySetup than I click it when it reappears and try uploading the AT901286 firmware file with the appropriate chip and Teensy boatloader selected, the command prompt opens and closes instantaneously but the device is not seen by device manager/JoyStep. (nor when its unplugged/replugged) Am I missing something here? Tried clearing the registry when trying again, but no success.

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

So I can still wire the joystick buttons in SPI and do the throttle buttons individually in matrix? 

 

Mega_Mozg is vague about this.

Probable this require experimentation, don't share the pins for SCK/MISO/MOSI  for Matrix Row and Column.

 

In this case - using a different firwware - the guy use the F-22 Shift Register together with Button Matrix inside a Suncom SFS.

 

http://gerryk.com/node/45

 

The WCS that I have come without the original circuit board, look in your if are chips CD4021 like the ones inside F-22 grip.

If are is "shift register", that can avoid the Matrix usage.

So if there were 3 more buttons for a total of 6 in the picture than they would all be Column 1? 

 

Yes, wire then in Column 1. 

 

 

 

And all 6 diodes attached to those buttons are wired to each other in sequence and then to the single pin as shown in the diagram?

 

Yes, the diodes avoid that the signal send through Row wire reach other button through the Column wire (common for this buttons)

 

 

 

 So to add a second column of 6 buttons would I then wire each switch line to the same 6 pins as Column 1, but then wire the diodes for Column 2 to Pin B5 in the diagram?

 

Yes, now you will  extend (share) the wires from Lines (Row) 1, 2...6  - already wired for the first 6 buttons for the next six (7-12), and wire the diodes in this 7-12 buttons in Column 2 (B5):

 

Teensy_2_0.jpg

 

In the same way that each Column wire goes for 6 buttons (in a 6x6 matrix) each Line(Row) goes for 6 buttons.

 

For the diodes, do you recommend that specific brand/model, or is it just a certain type I can look for locally?

 

Any 1N4148 or 1N4001 (they look like the ones in picture) is suitable.

 

 

 

So I tried putting the MMJoy firmware on the Teensy 2.0++ but it doesn't seem to have worked. The device is visible in device manager/JoySetup,I bootload it by pressing the button on the board, it dissapears for a second from JoySetup than I click it when it reappears and try uploading the AT901286 firmware file with the appropriate chip and Teensy boatloader selected, the command prompt opens and closes instantaneously but the device is not seen by device manager/JoyStep. (nor when its unplugged/replugged) Am I missing something here? Tried clearing the registry when trying again, but no success. 

 

This is a bit trick. Cost me many trials for the first time. :)

Are a tutorial there: http://www.geneb.org/mmjoy2/pro-micro-instructions.pdf

 

1 - When plug the Teensy in computer you need install COM drivers, pointing the "Divers" folder on MMjoy2 download package.

 

After properly installed if you press the "reset" button on Teensy this COM will change for "bootloader COM##" - during 8 seconds.

 

To check if Teensy is properly installed, go to Control Panel > Device Manager and look at COM ports for Arduino (Teensy) device, finding

press the "reset" button, if the COM change for "bootloader COM##" is installed OK.

 

2 - To install the firmware configure the parameters on JoySetup and press the Reset button to activate the "bootloader COM##", select

this COM## in "Port(Arduino)" and click in "Upload firmware".

 

A DOS window open and show the write progress, informing the success at the end. Is need close this window manually. 

 

3 - After, un-plug the Teensy and plug again, will be recognized as HID device but not as "joystick" (no parameters), now configure the

"joystick" parameters: axis, buttons, HAT, VID and PID*, if want change the MMjoy2 name for any with up to 10 characters.

 

* VID and PID = Use a low number, e.g. 0001, 0001 if want this "josytick" as the first device in Game Controllers list (and in games).

Or use a high number, e.g. 8888, 8888 or 9999, 9999 if want this "joystick" as the last device in Game Controllers list (and in games).

 

Note - If after set the joystick parameters for the first time you want change the number of axis,  on JoySetup click on "Clear sets" and use a different VID and PID numbers, because Windows don't see this number of axis change if the "joystick" "identity" are no't changed and in Game Controllers the "joystick" show the "not connected" error - but work OK in other calibration/test programns (DIView, VKB Joy Tester) and in games. A Windows bug.

Edited by Sokol1
Matt

Matt

Posted
Posted (edited)

Does anybody have constant problems with the FFB2 in BoS?

 

Most of the time, i'm getting this pulsating bug (already happened in RoF, but not as often.) or one or both axes have no FFB at all and are just loose. The latter is probably even more annoying, because you only notice the problem during the take-off run.

 

I tried switching from USB 2.0 to USB 3.0 and back but that doesn't seem to make any difference at all.

 

Sometimes it's possible to fix this by entering the input options and then go back (because that resets the FFB), but even then it often switches between the different problems (from pulsating to not working at all etc.).

Edited by Matt
Matt

Matt

Posted
Posted

Nevermind, i've now plugged it into the USB 3.0 hub of my monitor and it works flawlessly.

goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted (edited)

Mega_Mozg is vague about this.

Probable this require experimentation, don't share the pins for SCK/MISO/MOSI  for Matrix Row and Column.[/size]

 

In this case - using a different firwware - the guy use the F-22 Shift Register together with Button Matrix inside a Suncom SFS.[/size]

 

http://gerryk.com/node/45

 

The WCS that I have come without the original circuit board, look in your if are chips CD4021 like the ones inside F-22 grip.[/size]

If are is "shift register", that can avoid the Matrix usage.[/size]

 

I'm not seeing "CD4021" anywhere on the board, there's something that looks like a brand logo that says "A-1-0", but it also has a 1994 Thrustmaster copyright printed on it so I think it's original. Mine had the Bob Church modifications, perhaps that only changed the board in the base of the stick unit?

 

So I can use this other firmware exclusively then? Hopefully it will be simpler as I'm still having trouble getting MMJoy to load the firmware. I don't think Teensy normally shows up as COM, only when that function is requested, so I had to run the Arduino suite for it to show up as serial. I tried manually loading the firmware hex file via Teensy's programming app, but it won't show up as an HID. I'll trying messing around with the other firmware, hopefully I can at least get the stick buttons working before I finish the throttle wiring.

 

So I finished wiring the 6 push buttons (with diodes) in the throttle handle. Now when I wire them to the board, is the order that the buttons are at in the diode sequence important for which pin the buttons will go to? Does it have to be like in your sketch where the last button in the diode sequence (that is, the button with the open diode anode) is wired to Row A?

 

Another dumb question. I have two DPDT On-None-On switches and two 3-way (3 terminal) rocker switches, how do I wire these in matrix?

 

Thanks,

Jacob

Edited by goodpoints
Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

 

I'm not seeing "CD4021" anywhere on the board, there's something that looks like a brand logo that says "A-1-0", but it also has a 1994 Thrustmaster copyright printed on it so I think it's original. 

 

The CD4021 is for shift register functions. Look at this picture, inside Cougar grip, is the same for Warthog, F16 FLCS, F22 PRO.

 

 

 

Mine had the Bob Church modifications, perhaps that only changed the board in the base of the stick unit?

 

For what I know Bob Church mod' only replace the main chip in control board, no the board. I own this mod for some time, in F-22+TQS, but don't know how where this mod for WCS.

 

 

 

So I can use this other firmware exclusively then? 

 

Yes, instead MMjoy2 firmware you can use the above linked firmware, and do a matrix inside WCS (like the above link), what depend on quantity of buttons installed in WCS, or how many Rows and Columns will be needed.

 

 

 

So I finished wiring the 6 push buttons (with diodes) in the throttle handle. Now when I wire them to the board, is the order that the buttons are at in the diode sequence important for which pin the buttons will go to? Does it have to be like in your sketch where the last button in the diode sequence (that is, the button with the open diode anode) is wired to Row A?

 

One side of diode (the black list) to one pin of switch, the other side of diode for Columns wire.

In the Row you wire the other pin of switch.

 

 

Another dumb question. I have two DPDT On-None-On switches and two 3-way (3 terminal) rocker switches, how do I wire these in matrix?

 

Depends on use, a DPDT ON-OFF-ON switch can use 1, 2, 3 or 4 positions in matrix, in the last case 2 are turned ON/OFF simultaneously, for example one side switch up turn Landing Gear Up, the other Side turn ON a red LED. Same for lower the landing gear and turn or a green LED (example).

 

A 3 pin rocker switch can use 1 position in matrix, in this case will be a ON-OFF switch.  Use 2 pins, middle and one end.

Or use 2 positions in matrix, in this case will be ON-ON switch, without OFF position. Use the 3 pin, middle to Column, ends to Row, with diode.

Maybe this have use in DCS modules, but not BoS with few controls options (most toggle).

goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted

The CD4021 is for shift register functions. Look at this picture, inside Cougar grip, is the same for Warthog, F16 FLCS, F22 PRO.

 

 

For what I know Bob Church mod' only replace the main chip in control board, no the board. I own this mod for some time, in F-22+TQS, but don't know how where this mod for WCS.

Well it's not the same board as in that pic but it definitely looks like it's a shift register. here's a pic

 

 

Depends on use, a DPDT ON-OFF-ON switch can use 1, 2, 3 or 4 positions in matrix, in the last case 2 are turned ON/OFF simultaneously, for example one side switch up turn Landing Gear Up, the other Side turn ON a red LED. Same for lower the landing gear and turn or a green LED (example).

Right, so in your example one side would be Gear Up ON & LED OFF and the other side would be Gear Up OFF & LED ON? I'm not planning to use any LEDs and I'm not looking to make the switches aircraft specific, so I'd like both DPDT switches to just give 2 different inputs. An example of uses I have in mind for these is to cage/uncage sight gyros like on the P-51/FW 190 or to switch normal/emergency afterburner, supercharger stages, WEP , methanol injectors, etc.

 

so would the two pins for each ON side be wired just like buttons? (i.e. line wire and diode to column wire) what about the center 2 pins? That sort of confuses me since the switches only have 2 positions but there are 6 terminals. 

A 3 pin rocker switch can use 1 position in matrix, in this case will be a ON-OFF switch.  Use 2 pins, middle and one end.

Or use 2 positions in matrix, in this case will be ON-ON switch, without OFF position. Use the 3 pin, middle to Column, ends to Row, with diode.

Maybe this have use in DCS modules, but not BoS with few controls options (most toggle).

 

I'd like to have it setup to work best with DCS: A-10C since it requires the most controls, and lower-fidelity sims and less complex DLC modules will not even require all the available inputs on the HOTAS  or I should be able to workaround it with stuff like Joy2Key. So with the A-10C in mind,  I'd like to set up the two 3-way switches to function as the Boat and China Hat switches. China Hat would function as a momentary ON-OFF-ON since the actual button's center position has no function. As for the Boat switch, the actual button has a center function, so is it possible to program it so the center OFF position reads as a constant input? If not I'd just use 3 of the push buttons on the throttle for each position of the Boat switch.

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

 

 

... I'm still having trouble getting MMJoy to load the firmware. I don't think Teensy normally shows up as COM, only when that function is requested, so I had to run the Arduino suite for it to show up as serial. I tried manually loading the firmware hex file via Teensy's programming app, but it won't show up as an HID. 

 

Since I have a Teensy 2.0 (not ++2.0) laying around I write the MMjoy2 firmware in then and is very easy, but slightly different from Arduino PRO Micro - no COM install/select involved.

 

"How to" there: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/18379-teensy-20-mmjoy2-firmware-joystick-controller/

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

Well it's not the same board as in that pic but it definitely looks like it's a shift register. here's a pic

 Yes, the same shift register chip (CD4021) inside F-16 FLCS, but this chip is to communicate trough serial BUS the grip HAT's and buttons for the main controller base only.

 

This chips in grip don't handle the buttons inside the WCS. If aren't the same chip's inside WCS this indicate the use of some kind of matrix for this device (or maybe a keyboard emulation), difficult to know...

 

 

 

Right, so in your example one side would be Gear Up ON & LED OFF and the other side would be Gear Up OFF & LED ON? I'm not planning to use any LEDs and I'm not looking to make the switches aircraft specific, so I'd like both DPDT switches to just give 2 different inputs. An example of uses I have in mind for these is to cage/uncage sight gyros like on the P-51/FW 190 or to switch normal/emergency afterburner, supercharger stages, WEP , methanol injectors, etc.                                                                                                                                                                                 so would the two pins for each ON side be wired just like buttons? (i.e. line wire and diode to column wire) what about the center 2 pins? That sort of confuses me since the switches only have 2 positions but there are 6 terminals. 

 

See a DPDT switch as 4 ON-OFF switches glued together, controller with only one lever. Assuming the DPDT switches 6 pins like this:

 

1 | 4

2 | 5

3 | 6

 

1-2 = button 1

3-2 = button 2

4-5 = button 3

6-5 = button 4

 

Notice that pins 2 and 5  will be common for two buttons each, if the switch lever are on middle they are not connected to other pin, if are up are connected to 1 and 4, and if are down to 3 and 6, wire this pins in matrix Column.

 

In the Landing Gear and LED example 1+2 and in 4+5 will be wired in two buttons position in matrix and controlled simultaneously.

 

Notice that switch OFF position (middle position) don't do nothing for most of games - because games expect a "key press" for ON, and another "key press" for OFF.

This is due the way that games controls are programmed: to be handled with keyboard momentarily key press.

Eg. BOS, to turn cockpit lights ON you press L, to turn OFF press L again...

So is not useful have a lever switch assigned for this, because is need flip the switch Up for turn the function (lights) ON, and turn Down and turn Up again to switch OFF...

 

You can deal with this limitation with a keymaper (SVMapper, XPadder, Autohotkey...) with ability to handle "mapped key on press" (ON) and "mapped key on release" (OFF), or in some DCS modules editing LUA files.

 

In BOS using the keymaper the switch will work in a natural way, Up = ON, Down = OFF. The downsize of this - a software solution - is the eventual lost of sync after some re-fly - you forget the switch Up, hit re-fly but the lights are OFF...  :(

 

Or you can wire the matrix two positions in 1+2 and 2+3, now your switch can turn something ON when Up, and turn OFF when Down (in middle do nothing), but this - a hardware solution - will work only for games that use a more smart controls approach - again DCS modules - some modules accept a key for turn (for example) cockpit lights ON and another key to turn OFF, making natural using the switch, so not useful in BOS, that use only L.

 

As workaround you can map 2 joy' buttons to do same thing (toggle cockpit lights), now you switch will work in more natural way, but will have the same problem of sync after re-fly if you dont do a "check list" before.

 

Other option for wire is one matrix button in 1-2 and another in 5-6. One side turn something ON, other side turn OFF. What wiring will be more convenient depends on game function.

 

"Opera Resume":  SPST, SPDT, DPDT ON-OFF, ON-OFF-ON switches are useful for "study sim", not for "flight games" - for these use (MON)-OFF-(MOM) switches (like in X-52 throttle).  :)  

goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted

Yes, the same shift register chip (CD4021) inside F-16 FLCS, but this chip is to communicate trough serial BUS the grip HAT's and buttons for the main controller base only.

 

This chips in grip don't handle the buttons inside the WCS. If aren't the same chip's inside WCS this indicate the use of some kind of matrix for this device (or maybe a keyboard emulation), difficult to know...

Sorry, I just realized I had misread you when you asked if there was a shift register chip in the WCS, I was thinking FLCS. (hence I posted a pic of the stick grip) So no, I don't think my WCS chip has a shift register.

 

See a DPDT switch as 4 ON-OFF switches glued together, controller with only one lever. Assuming the DPDT switches 6 pins like this:

 

1 | 4

2 | 5

3 | 6

 

1-2 = button 1

3-2 = button 2

4-5 = button 3

6-5 = button 4

 

Notice that pins 2 and 5  will be common for two buttons each, if the switch lever are on middle they are not connected to other pin, if are up are connected to 1 and 4, and if are down to 3 and 6, wire this pins in matrix Column.

 

In the Landing Gear and LED example 1+2 and in 4+5 will be wired in two buttons position in matrix and controlled simultaneously.

 

Notice that switch OFF position (middle position) don't do nothing for most of games - because games expect a "key press" for ON, and another "key press" for OFF.

This is due the way that games controls are programmed: to be handled with keyboard momentarily key press.

Eg. BOS, to turn cockpit lights ON you press L, to turn OFF press L again...

So is not useful have a lever switch assigned for this, because is need flip the switch Up for turn the function (lights) ON, and turn Down and turn Up again to switch OFF...

 

You can deal with this limitation with a keymaper (SVMapper, XPadder, Autohotkey...) with ability to handle "mapped key on press" (ON) and "mapped key on release" (OFF), or in some DCS modules editing LUA files.

 

In BOS using the keymaper the switch will work in a natural way, Up = ON, Down = OFF. The downsize of this - a software solution - is the eventual lost of sync after some re-fly - you forget the switch Up, hit re-fly but the lights are OFF...  :(

 

Or you can wire the matrix two positions in 1+2 and 2+3, now your switch can turn something ON when Up, and turn OFF when Down (in middle do nothing), but this - a hardware solution - will work only for games that use a more smart controls approach - again DCS modules - some modules accept a key for turn (for example) cockpit lights ON and another key to turn OFF, making natural using the switch, so not useful in BOS, that use only L.

 

As workaround you can map 2 joy' buttons to do same thing (toggle cockpit lights), now you switch will work in more natural way, but will have the same problem of sync after re-fly if you dont do a "check list" before.

 

Other option for wire is one matrix button in 1-2 and another in 5-6. One side turn something ON, other side turn OFF. What wiring will be more convenient depends on game function.

 

"Opera Resume":  SPST, SPDT, DPDT ON-OFF, ON-OFF-ON switches are useful for "study sim", not for "flight games" - for these use (MON)-OFF-(MOM) switches (like in X-52 throttle).  :)

This went a bit over my head. Just to be sure we're on the same page with what kind of switches I've got:

 

the 2-way switches are the ones with 6 pins laid out like like your 1-6 example (2 columns of 3 pins).

 

the 3-way rocker switches only have 3 pins though laid out like this (all three to one side of the bottom):

 

  | 1

  | 2

  | 3

 

So yes for the 2-way switches I think I would want them to read like your Gear/LED example. That way I could map it to something like China Hat in DCS: A-10C where flipping the switch up would function something like [JOY1 = on, JOY2 = off] and flipping it down like [JOY1 = off, JOY2 = on]. That way I could bind JOY1 to the 'China Aft' command and JOY2 to 'China Forward' and one would turn off as the other is turned on by the switch. So to do this, would I wire it as per your sketch? I'm confused as you said that would be wired 1+2 / 4+5 but your sketch looks like 2+3 / 4+5.

 

So how does the 3 pin rocker switch work then?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

If this rocker has 3 lever positions - Up, Middle, Down - wire 2 buttons using wires from 1 Row and from 2 Columns, sample:

 

http://s7.postimg.org/ddubtc2ff/rocker.jpg

 

In that way the rocker are replacing the 2 up buttons in this scheme, one for each column: 

 

Rocker Up = Button 1 ON

Rocker Middle = Button 1 OFF

Rocker Down = Button 2 ON

Rocker Middle = Button 2 OFF

Etc.

 

The practical use of rocker will depends on game support (e.g. DCS).

 

The best way to deal with this is practicing.

Start wire switches and test, since no +5v and Gnd are involved in Row and Columns no risk to do "chip barbecue".  :biggrin:

 

A good wiring example there, a ON-ON-ON switch: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147186

 

BTW - I think is better move this conversation for other tread before the FF 2 addicts became upset.  ;)

Edited by Sokol1
goodpoints

goodpoints

Posted
Posted

If this rocker has 3 lever positions - Up, Middle, Down - wire 2 buttons using wires from 1 Row and from 2 Columns, sample:

 

http://s7.postimg.org/ddubtc2ff/rocker.jpg

 

In that way the rocker are replacing the 2 up buttons in this scheme, one for each column: 

 

Rocker Up = Button 1 ON

Rocker Middle = Button 1 OFF

Rocker Down = Button 2 ON

Rocker Middle = Button 2 OFF

Etc.

 

The practical use of rocker will depends on game support (e.g. DCS).

 

The best way to deal with this is practicing.

Start wire switches and test, since no +5v and Gnd are involved in Row and Columns no risk to do "chip barbecue".  :biggrin:

 

A good wiring example there, a ON-ON-ON switch: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147186

 

BTW - I think is better move this conversation for other tread before the FF 2 addicts became upset.  ;)

Alright, I think I have a good idea of what I'm looking at for the switches now. I'll just use some dupont headers to test out connections before I solder anything though.

 

Thanks so much for all your help, it's been invaluable.

 

BTW - I think is better move this conversation for other tread before the FF 2 addicts became upset.  ;)

I was thinking along similar lines. Good news is though that with the original F-16 FLCS Arduino sketch posted in here (with a slight modification, see link) I got my F-16 Grip working and attached it with my juryrigged extender (made of some kind of PVC connector I found at the hardware store)  to my FF2 base. No sawing/augering required as the connector fit quite nice over both the F-16 and FF2's sticks with some epoxy.

 

The finished product:

 

hDgOypA.png

 

Just waiting for the epoxy on the bottom of the extender to finish bonding. Wires on top of it are the 5 wires from the stick (recycled one of the original PS/2 cables) that will go to the teensy board inside the throttle base once that is finished. Very happy so far though, can't wait to get the thing in between my thighs and do some real TMS-ing and DMS-ing  :)

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

Looks good.    :joy:

 

But I think you break the "stick extension rule": don't go above 6".  :)

Skoop

Skoop

Posted
Posted

Any one ever tried to mod a g940 with a ch or warthog grip ?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

Same "recipe": get the grip and a Arduino board to handle the new grip buttons, as G-940 sick board handle only ~7 or 11 buttons +HAT, CH 16 is 16 buttons + HAT, Cougar 18 + HAT, Warthog ~20 + HAT.

 

With CH grip is need "decode" the matrix (lines x columns) used - this stick dont use shift register circuit with 5 wires like Tm ones, probable will be need do some modifications in this matrix...

15[Span.]/JG51Costa

15[Span.]/JG51Costa

Posted
Posted

This was my last setup before buying the Thrustmaster Warthog. It was a bad decision , now the computer does not recognize the joystick because of firmware problem .

I've tried everything but did not solve the problem ...​ :(

dsc01612ov.jpg​

 

Saludos

15(Span.)/JG51 Costa

Cid250

Cid250

Posted
Posted

I need help with the drivers of my Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 2... i doesn't have a copy of them, and my joystick was working on Windows 7 Pro 64 bits...

But after updating to Windows 10, it seems that nothing fires the plug & play setup of the USB connection.

 

It doesn't appear in the devices panel...

 

The only advice that i was able to search was of a Microsoft fórum where some people with Windows 8.1 has this Joystick working...

 

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_8-hardware/microsoft-sidewinder-force-feedback-2-game/60795641-27a3-46ec-8e85-34f296f2aebd?auth=1

 

Will be nice if somebody links a copy of the original CD of Drivers... since I've lost mine!.

 

Thanks in advance!.

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

The drivers in original CD work only in old Windows versions (Win98 I think), not in these new and 64 bits.

1PL-Husar-1Esk

1PL-Husar-1Esk

Posted
Posted

I have it (MSFF2) working in win 10 - no problem. I did uprgade from win8.1. I can say that it is working better in win 10 - just like in win 7. In win 8 it would lose force feedback more than in any other os version.

Cid250

Cid250

Posted
Posted

WOOT!!!...

I did NOTHING, just keep the joystick connected to the USB, and after several reboots, Windows 10 surprised me and displayed my old Joystick SideWinder Force Feedback 2...

Just after several reboots, and I figure that some automatical updates, the Joystick showed up!!!.

Nice!... Here goes for another 5 years of service under Windows 10!...

  • 2 weeks later...
Nicol21

Nicol21

Posted
Posted

Hello, I have question to all MS SW FF2 users. At full pitch up (stick fully pulled towards me) shaking dont work. It is audible, but no feel in hand (proven also by some force feedback test utility). As soon as I release this max pull up a little, shaking immediatelly occurs on the handle. Not a big issue, but I am wondering if forexample one wheel on FF "gearbox" could have broken teeth... ? Can anybody try shaking (from guns) at full pull up position ? Note that centering force works at full pull up, just shaking don´t.

  • 6 months later...
Dutchvdm

Dutchvdm

Posted
Posted

Hi Guys,

 

Wanted to get this thread going again.  :)

 

My MSFFB2 is getting old, and everything is getting a bit loser and i think it's not going to last another year. What are my options. Is there anything worthwhile? 

 

Outsource i don't want to make a step backwards. To only thing that i think i can live without is the force feedback. As long as the stick is stiff enough and doesn't wobble around. I don't want to give a hard budget but anything below 500 euro's is worth a consideration.

 

Thnx.

 

Grt M

 

PS: I don't use pedals. Think a twist stick would be nice if possible.  

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

Since you can give up of ForceFeedback, with not VKB Gladiator PRO and that "next-gen" all metal CAM/Bearing gimbal? :)

 

Is the only thing really new in the joystick market.

Dutchvdm

Dutchvdm

Posted
Posted

Hi Sokol,

 

I checked that one out. But delivery in the EU seems not possible.

 

What about the thrustmaster warthog?

 

Grt M

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted

Wait more some days that will be possible pre-order Gladiator's through flightsimcontrols.com in Europe :)

 

Well, Warthog is this that is already know, expensive - the initial price need be added more a rudder pedal set (from 90$ to 500$+), that extension (~80$) for became convenient for WWII planes, and has some issues with "sticktion" and fragility in gimbal (is made in plastic) and grip neck (in hand of careless users, that think they have buy a "tank").

  • Upvote 1
1Sascha

1Sascha

Posted
Posted (edited)

Is there any better Joystick as the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 ???

 

No.

 

 

I have probably one of the last Sidewinders that were sold in stores over here in Europe. Red Trigger, late model which a buddy of mine unearthed in Finland when German vendors were already out of supply. I'm still using it and it still looks and feels like new. Great quality product and the *best* feel I ever got from any joystick I used. The old Thrustmaster FLCS Pro (F4-grip, metal base) with its ultra-stiff mechanical springs was a close second, but that thing was insanely expensive and you had to velcro or nail it to your desk in order to use it. ;)

 

Even in games that don't support FF, I just love the centering-spring effect the SW FF2 has. I *hate* wobbly sticks like the CH-ones or the Saiteks with a passion - I just can't fly with those things.

 

I've been using lots of SW products since they first came out and the only problem I ever encountered were a malfunctioning/worn-out thumb-button on a series 1 Sidewinder (non FF) and a broken hat-switch on an early FF2 (6oc function stopped working). And that's it.

 

Someone once told me that MS stopped making them because they were of too high quality and thus wouldn't break quickly enough. Not sure if that's true, but the quality of these products was indeed exceptional - especially for their price-range.

 

 

Why, oh why did you stop making them, Microsoft ...? :(

 

 

Although I have to say that Gladiator-stick doesn't look half-bad... I especially love the idea of putting that gorgeous KG12-replica-grip onto it. Any news on when these things will be available?

 

 

 

 

S.

Edited by 1Sascha
Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

The old Thrustmaster FLCS Pro (F4-grip, metal base) with its ultra-stiff mechanical springs was a close second, but that thing was insanely expensive and you had to velcro or nail it to your desk in order to use it.  ;)

 

 

This? >>> http://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Flight-Control-System-Joystick-Pc/dp/B0015TH2S8/ref=sr_1_15?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1463728474&sr=1-15&keywords=thrustmaster+joystick

 

 Although I have to say that Gladiator-stick doesn't look half-bad... I especially love the idea of putting that gorgeous KG12-replica-grip onto it. Any news on when these things will be available?

 

There  >>> http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22481-t-rudder-mkiv-pedals-gladiator-and-gladiator-pro-joystick-pr/

 

If you live in Europe and don't want buy the PRO version... good luck.  :biggrin:

Edited by Sokol1
1Sascha

1Sascha

Posted
Posted

Yup.. that's the one. I used that one back in Air Warrior 2 in the mid 90s. I don't remember its exact price back then, but it would be up there today with the Warthog when it comes to price. Think it was something like 300 - 400 DM for just the stick (WCS II-throttle was sold seperately). Which was quite a lot of money in those days when a pack of cigarettes was 5 DM. :D

 

 

The Pro Version of the Gladiator is fine. I just had a birthday here and $250 isn't that much for a high quality product. And that thing looks pretty high quality to me. How stiff is it though? Like I said: I *hate* wobbly sticks like the CH Fighterstick.

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)

Gladiator PRO use this all metal/bearings CAM gimbal:

 

Gimbal_Final_1.jpg

 

The CAM profile change the force need to move across the deflexion, requiring more force at end.

 

The stick came with 2 sets of CAM, one with soft (lees defined) center position - suitable for helicopter pilotage.

Other with hard (more defined) center position - you feel when the stick are in center, like in this old PFCS.

 

And 2 or 3 set of springs with different tension - to trying to please the more different "vir'pilot" tastes. :)

 

You can use a more heavy spring in Y and a less in X if want, same for CAM's.

 

Or even use 2 springs in one axis - beware that a guy manage do damage the gimbal using 2 more heavy springs and using a joystick extension (20 cm), that create lever requiring a very big force to move.

 

This CAM system was not previously used in any commercial joystick, but used in "high end" rudder pedals, like MFG Simundza Crosswind,

, BAUR BRD, VKB T-Rudder pedals.

 

Miles ahead of "SMART" system...  :P

 

BTW - Gladiator PRO dont come with "twist rudder" - if you don't have Rudder Pedals, consider one of the above, even the "smart" .  ;)

Edited by Sokol1
1Sascha

1Sascha

Posted
Posted

Wow.. that gimbal looks awesome. Well.. if you say the Gladiator Pro feels like the old TM FLCS Pro, it's going to be hard for me to *not* buy this thing. I'm very, very tempted.. even though I love my Sidewinder and it still works perfectly. That KG12-grip is just soooo sexy.. :D

 

And I prefer a stick without twisty-stuff. I have more rudder-pedals here than I can use. Still on my ancient gameport CH Pro Pedals (connected through a Rockfire-converter). I also have the Saitek Pro Flight Pedals sitting around here, but even with that silly center detent removed, I find them still a little too stiff around the center - plus I prefer the narrower shape of the CH pedals - don't want to be sitting here at the PC like a woman in a gynecologist's chair.. ;)

 

 

S.

seafireliv

seafireliv

Posted
Posted

Love my FF2, had for a decade now. Can`t do without the Force Feedback. Even in modern sims like BOS it has guaranteed that I almost never stall even in planes I`m not familiar with.

 

Can`t believe Microsoft dropped the ball with it.  I`ve said it before, but it is a  VICTORIAN-style quality of product. I`ve had a microsoft gamepad controllerfor a couple of months and already it`s squeaking and getting loose.

 

We got lucky with the FF2 at its price- We won`t see it again.

1Sascha

1Sascha

Posted
Posted

 

 

Can`t believe Microsoft dropped the ball with it.

 

 

I'm sure they had their reasons.. :D

 

 

What I don't get is that they had an incredible line-up under the Sidewinder brand.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder

 

I've owned or used almost all of them at one point or another (I used to work for a PC Gaming-magazine) and they were all of high quality and very well thought out.

 

Heck, when they (sorta) brought back the Sidewinder-brand a few years ago, I jumped right back on and bought a Sidewinder X4-keyboard as a backup (which I'm typing this message on right now).

 

Why would you abandon such a strong, established and well-respected brand? There is a market for this stuff out there, after all. Despite what people have been saying for years now, flight-sims ain't dead (far from it, actually, thanks to Il-2, RoF or this game among others) plus there's a huge market out there for console-style gamepads, high-end mice and keyboards.

 

Same with their regular mice and keyboards, btw. The MS Internet Pro keyboard was one of the best non-mechanical keyboards I ever used and the regular Intellimouse Pro was great too. These days I have to buy overpriced stuff from Razer to get a decent, lefty-compatible mouse. :(

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