Is there any better Joystick as the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 ???

[arjisme]

Ok, well to clarify things a bit, the joystick on the G940 is excellent, IMO, and it was that (not the total G940 package) I thought he was referring to. I know of no issues with the joystick itself. I haven't used a MS FFB stick, just heard great things about them. But I am very happy with the G940 joystick.

 

The throttle does have issues, but can be remedied with some simple mods. The pedals are average and I replaced mine with Saitek ones, which work fine especially after eliminating the center detent.

[arjisme]

That's news to me! I'm highly skeptical of that as the stick uses Hall sensors. I've certainly not experienced that.

[Quax]

Allthough I posted it in another thread already, here is my FFB2:  ....others use the "more-button" solution - i do the opposite 

(the mod is done in 30 mins)

 

[JG27_Chivas]

I've owned the G940 and overall it was descent Hota's system, but the reversal bug made it harder to acurately put bullets on target than it was with the MSFF2.   I had basilcly the same problem with the Cougar, Warthog, X52, and CH, where my MSFF2 was slightly easier to put bullets on target.  I have high hopes to finally retired my MSFF2 with the Floor Mount Control Column at

 http://galactic-pancakes.com/products/mk-iii-floor-mount-control-column

[Quax]

I imagine the force it very weak now though?

 

I run the force at 80%. Still enough force necessary to pitch down the Dr1    The FFB2 force is really strong, but if some day another base with brushless power comes out, I´ll go for it.

Anyway I couldn´t switch back to a wrist stick.

[Bearcat]

I don't think so... I have been using one for the past 13 years .. along with this

[DeafBee]

Allthough I posted it in another thread already, here is my FFB2:  ....others use the "more-button" solution - i do the opposite 

(the mod is done in 30 mins)

 

Would you make a tutorial how to make that? Would love to have my my MSFF2 like that.

[Sternjaeger]

after some tests I have to say I'm tempted to go for a similar solution, although on a not so long stick. 

 

I've seen someone making a very clever support to install under your chair, so that the base of the joystick sits at the same height of your bottom, that I think is what I will go for, together with the Tarmac Aces Bf109 stick top :-)

[DeafBee]

after some tests I have to say I'm tempted to go for a similar solution, although on a not so long stick. 

 

I've seen someone making a very clever support to install under your chair, so that the base of the joystick sits at the same height of your bottom, that I think is what I will go for, together with the Tarmac Aces Bf109 stick top :-)

Sounds nice. I have been searching the internet for some modding instructions for the MSFF2.

[DD_Crash]

Sounds nice. I have been searching the internet for some modding instructions for the MSFF2.

try here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18562

[skline00]

My MS FF2 works great on Win 8.1.

[Revvin]

I miss my CH Force FX, best stick I ever had

[DB605]

Would you make a tutorial how to make that? Would love to have my my MSFF2 like that.

 

I'm also interested about this.

[Sokol1]

I miss my CH Force FX, best stick I ever had

 

Some guys install a Logitech Force circuit board to drive their motors and still using as Force Feedback - obvious without the 'blablabla manager".

 

Sokol1

[Revvin]

Some guys install a Logitech Force circuit board to drive their motors and still using as Force Feedback - obvious without the 'blablabla manager".

 

Sokol1

Yes I've seen the mods, what's a "blablabla manager"?

[Sokol1]

The programing thing - some guys dont live without this.

 

This solve both question (Force Feedback and programing).

 

http://www.descentbb.com/viewtopic.php?t=3208

 

I have one these CH Force FX - need find a Logitech Force...

 

Sokol1

Edited February 12, 2014 by Sokol1

[Revvin]

The programing thing - some guys dont live without this.

 

This solve both question (Force Feedback and programing).

 

http://www.descentbb.com/viewtopic.php?t=3208

 

I have one these CH Force FX - need find a Logitech Force...

 

Sokol1

 

Ah yes, Control Manager, well they don't want to live without it for good reason I threw out my Force FX a while ago, I should have just let my missus put it on eBay.

[DeafBee]

try here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18562

Thanks DD_Crash

[batmanzbayman]

I am just getting back into WW11 sims ,last I played was warbirds3 I think.

 

Just bought 3 MS sticks ,last one finnally a FFB2 red .My problem is it has a very sticky hand grip ,I have tried cleaning it with glass cleaner that seems to work on everything else but not this time.I think I made it a little worse .

 

Does anyone have any suggestions ??

 

Also is my rig upto the task for IL*2 BOS ? I have played a little ROF and looks ok ,just got this sticky grip problem !!

 

thanks in advance for any help/advice.

 

 

[Sokol1]

This guy use brake fluid to remove this stick rubber coating (from a car dash):

 

YT video

 

As I say in other forum, I use WD-40.

 

Sokol1

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sokol1

[Skull_Leader]

I am just getting back into WW11 sims ,last I played was warbirds3 I think.

 

Just bought 3 MS sticks ,last one finnally a FFB2 red .My problem is it has a very sticky hand grip ,I have tried cleaning it with glass cleaner that seems to work on everything else but not this time.I think I made it a little worse .

 

Does anyone have any suggestions ??

 

Also is my rig upto the task for IL*2 BOS ? I have played a little ROF and looks ok ,just got this sticky grip problem !!

 

thanks in advance for any help/advice.

 

Damn, you outbid me on that stick! 

[batmanzbayman]

Damn, you outbid me on that stick! 

Really !!? ...... only the quick and the dead .... :biggrin:

 

WD40 sound good .

[Eldur]

MS FF sticks [...]

 

An use this.

 

Please, I dont want say that is worse or better, just what is.

 

Sokol1

 

Proof? I always thought they use an optical sensor, at least the Precision Pro (1) does, I had that one opened up already (nice signatures on the inner side of the bottom plate, too

 

I haven't seen a single potentiometer in life that has not worn out, so I'd say it can't be. At least my FFB2 doesn't show the usual heavy spiking problems and min/max-deorientations I know from any other potentiometer-driven device. Those things should be banned completely from any electric circuitry.

Rectify: MS FF2 USB are 10 bits (1024 points) on X and Y, 8 bits (256 points) or rudder and throttle.

 

Sokol1

 

That must be more than the G940 which is definately less precise on X and Y (1.42FW). And I won't even talk about the other axes...

In CloD FFB [...]

 

... is completely broken. Had to correct this

 

And it's still broken with TF 4.3... very sad thing

 

When it was released it had no FFB at all... when it finally got it, there was the "stick goes limp on firing" bug which hasn't been fixed yet by any crew working on Cliffs.

 

BTW whoever "invented" that "CloD" abbreviation... well, it's CoD (f*ck Call of Duty)... CloD reminds me of Klodeckel (toilet lid)... maybe that assosiation came because of the non-working FFB

Edited March 21, 2014 by Eldur

[Eldur]

A while back, my wife called me from a thrift shop to ask if I'd heard of this 'Sidewinder' joystick thing.  (She's a good woman)  

After my question if the box said Force Feedback 2, I laughed when she asked if it was worth $10.  I now have a spare.  

 

When she got home and I promptly put in back in the original box after testing......She just shook her head.

Derek

 

Grats!

[Eldur]

I have heard that some users experienced the reversal bug on the stick axes too!

 

That's correct until the firmware upgrade (http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Logitech-G-Controllers/G940-firmware-1-42-is-now-available/td-p/542496) is installed. BTW the "hysteresis" used to counter spiking which produces the reversal bug jumps for 5% by default, which can be reduced to 2,5% (setting it from 20 down to 10). But this is still too much and there's still the chance of failure of the potentiometers, which must be pretty high after heavy usage after reading some user reports.

 

Overall, the G940 is a good system that brings some "children's illnesses" which are the use of potentiometers and therefore the hysteresis/reversal bug stuff, saving on wires (the wiring for buttons and axes on the throttle may get broken) and in my opinion a much too short rudder pedal travel plus a big deadzone on them which is a no go. Also, there's quite a big "no FFB" zone in the center of the stick. It's also there on the FFB2, but a very lot smaller. And the FFB2 doesn't have that "stair" effect, but this can be dealt with by reducing the overall FFB power in the G940 software. They should make an improved version with none of these faults, and I'd even pay twice the price if it's all OK.

 

But I'm still hoping for a nice MS FFB3... but it may remain a dream forever

That's news to me! I'm highly skeptical of that as the stick uses Hall sensors. I've certainly not experienced that.

 

HOTAS Warthog uses hall sensors all over, the same goes for Simped rudder pedals. It's probably the best way to read inputs precisely on an analogue axis as nothing will ever wear out.

[arjisme]

Overall, the G940 is a good system that brings some "children's illnesses" which are the use of potentiometers and therefore the hysteresis/reversal bug stuff, saving on wires (the wiring for buttons and axes on the throttle may get broken) and in my opinion a much too short rudder pedal travel plus a big deadzone on them which is a no go. Also, there's quite a big "no FFB" zone in the center of the stick. It's also there on the FFB2, but a very lot smaller. And the FFB2 doesn't have that "stair" effect, but this can be dealt with by reducing the overall FFB power in the G940 software. They should make an improved version with none of these faults, and I'd even pay twice the price if it's all OK.

 

The G940 joystick has minute hysteresis.  It is so small that you really can't notice it.  Also, the joystick uses hall sensors.  As for the rest of the kit, I already commented on it earlier in the thread.

 

As to the "no FFB" zone and "stair" effects in the stick, this has not been my experience at all.  The FFB forces are configurable, including whether or not you want to have centering spring force.  This might explain why people have different experiences.

[Sokol1]

Proof? I always thought they use an optical sensor, at least the Precision Pro (1) does, I had that one opened up already (nice signatures on the inner side of the bottom plate, too

Look this topic: http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=29122&view=previous

On Sukhoi forum are other topics showing MS FF 2 disassembled.

 

Perhaps these pots are "military rated" or use some "Alien technology"...

 

Optical (light reflection) sensor (this sensor have short course, make control too sensible... - IMO):

Sidewinder 3D PRO

Sidewinder Precision PRO

Sidewinder Force Feedback 3D PRO

 

That must be more than the G940 which is definately less precise on X and Y (1.42FW). And I won't even talk about the other axes...

You can test the joystick axis resolution with DXTweak2, Dview or JoyTester2, VKB JoyTester, numbers for FF2 (from above link):

 

- x and y ( pitch, roll) = 10 bit resolution (1024 positions)

- slider ( throttle) = 5 bit resolution (127 positions)

- rudder = 4 bit resolution ( only 64 positions, meaning only 32 position for left + 32 for right movement of rudder).

 

BTW - G-940 use some kind of HALL sensor:

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=26538&start=10

And like you said, does not have good accuracy...

 

BTW whoever "invented" that "CloD" abbreviation... well, it's CoD (f*ck Call of Duty)... CloD reminds me of Klodeckel (toilet lid)... maybe that assosiation came because of the non-working FFB

CloD™ is fine, toilet lid, crap**, funk** is a perfect synonymous for him - but is good game.

 

Sokol1

[arjisme]

You can test the joystick axis resolution with DXTweak2, Dview or JoyTester2, VKB JoyTester, numbers for FF2 (from above link):

 

- x and y ( pitch, roll) = 10 bit resolution (1024 positions)

- slider ( throttle) = 5 bit resolution (127 positions)

- rudder = 4 bit resolution ( only 64 positions, meaning only 32 position for left + 32 for right movement of rudder).

 

BTW - G-940 use some kind of HALL sensor:

http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=350&t=26538&start=10

And like you said, does not have good accuracy...

 

Tested my G940 joystick and it is 10 bit resolution (pitch & roll).

 

Why do you say the joystick does not have good accuracy? 

[Sokol1]

I dont say that dont have good accurancy, only refer to Eldur post.

 

 

Sokol1, on 28 Oct 2013 - 23:12, said:

Rectify: MS FF2 USB are 10 bits (1024 points) on X and Y, 8 bits (256 points) or rudder and throttle.

Sokol1

That must be more than the G940 which is definately less precise on X and Y (1.42FW). And I won't even talk about the other axes...

 

10 bits (1024 points) is fine, furthermore G-940 use ball bearings (like VKB)on gimbal and some kind of HALL/Magnetic sensor (contactless).

 

I think this joystick resolution thing is like FPS on games, 200 is better than 100, but you notice the difference?

 

Some people swear that CH joystick is very precise, but his USB 1.1 controller is only 8 bits (256 points).

 

Sokol1

Edited March 21, 2014 by Sokol1

[TJT]

I'm trying to figure out why my MS FFB2 stick starts to rythmicly do small jerks as soon as I put my fingers between the sensors on the front of the grip. ITs not the normal FF behaviours but rather some spasm thing. It didnt do it at first then it starts to do it. Sometimes restarting the sim (same with RoF) solves it but it pretty soon starts this behaviour again. Anyone else had this happening?

Edited March 27, 2014 by TJT

[oneeyeddog]

Allthough I posted it in another thread already, here is my FFB2:  ....others use the "more-button" solution - i do the opposite 

(the mod is done in 30 mins)

 

Quax, how did you attach the carbon fiber extension to the little nub that protrudes from the gimbal once the handle is removed?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2014 by oneeyeddog

[TJT]

Looks like something was changed in the code during one of the recent patches cause the last few days my stick have not been misbehaving at all *knocks on wood*

 

 

And thx for the tips Extreme One. Although the going into menu to solve it would have made online flying completly unfeasable.

[Snachito]

I just got my MSFFB2 about a week ago and I will NEVER, EVER, EVER go back to non FFB!!! I love it so much I'm going to buy another one and/or I might buy a G940 at a really good price! The only thing I do NOT like about the MSFFB2 is the throttle, so I use the throttle of my Thrustmaster T-flight Hotas ( the joystick stand while seperated from the throttle is still connected with a wire and I would love to cut it off as I only need the throttle, although I don't know if that will stop the throttle from working) for my thrust and CH pedals for yaw. 

 

Now I think I just need to get a CH throttle and I will be a happy camper!! If I do end up getting the G940 I will be able to compare the FFB in both  and see if one is better than the other or if they are on par..........hopefully soon.............

[sturmkraehe]

Yes, when I bought the MSFFB2 it was a revelation. Before that I used the X52 and just loved it. I thought it a precise stick. But no ffb.

 

Now I use the MSFFB2 stick together with the X52 throttle. The MSFFB2 throttle is bound to something else

 

I am just a bit afraid that someday it will die and no more MSFFB2 in supply.

 

Why is no other producer be able to produce a similarly good ffb stick?

[Panzerlang]

Yes, when I bought the MSFFB2 it was a revelation. Before that I used the X52 and just loved it. I thought it a precise stick. But no ffb.

 

Now I use the MSFFB2 stick together with the X52 throttle. The MSFFB2 throttle is bound to something else

 

I am just a bit afraid that someday it will die and no more MSFFB2 in supply.

 

Why is no other producer be able to produce a similarly good ffb stick?

 

Because MS sold it at a loss, hoping they could drive everyone else out of the market, at which point they'd have put their prices through the roof. What they didn't count on was everyone thinking their stick was so butt-ugly not many would buy it at any price.

 

Cynical me.

[Snachito]

 

I am just a bit afraid that someday it will die and no more MSFFB2 in supply.

 

 

My thoughts EXACTLY!!  Also, as time goes by when we get to let's say Windows 10 will we still be able to use it? I hope so!! There are some dudes that have five of these or more just in case!! I used to laugh at that and thought they were crazy, now...............looks like I'm crazy too cuz next Paycheck, I'm cleaning out ebay and amazon of these joysticks!!!!

[ZaknafeinTV]

What about this ?

 

http://www.paccus.com/

[Crump]

My MSFFB2 Force Feed back seems to have stopped working on the lateral axis (ailerons, roll control......not sure if that is the X or Y axis on a joystick).  Can anybody help?  Is there a good tutorial on disassembly and fixing this thing?

[sturmkraehe]

So why on Earth is no other producer capable to create a similar well done FFB stick?

[JG27_Chivas]

What about this ?

 

http://www.paccus.com/

I've followed the development since it was first being mention.   I absolutely hate the look of the final design, and dismissed it on that alone, but the hydraulic forcefeedback could feel very good.   That said, I thought I'd take another look, and was floored by the price.  It was initially expected to sell in the high hundreds, not thousands, lol.