LLv24_Vilppi Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 That's because there is nothing wrong with it. I could see it being an issue if it were actually zoom.. as in traditional camera zoom.. like it was in CFS 1 but that is not what we have in sims... at least not any of the ones we are all involved with to some degree namely the top 4 (BoS,DCS,CoD,IL246). It is a change of perspective more like.. stepping in and out of a frame of reference. While I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with it, allow me to nitpick a little bit I think that the zoom with camera and zoom we have in flight simulations are exactly the same thing: they project a different field of view of an 3D object (virtual in the case of computer) onto a 2D surface. Or am I missing something here?
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 While I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with it, allow me to nitpick a little bit I think that the zoom with camera and zoom we have in flight simulations are exactly the same thing: they project a different field of view of an 3D object (virtual in the case of computer) onto a 2D surface. Or am I missing something here?Yes as near as I can understand it FOV and Zoom are essentially the same think. It's not possible to change one without the other. Also what's important to realize is that zoom isn't just changing the size of what you see, it's changing the resolution to allow you to see the detail you could see in real life. The best example I saw on this was related to a Truck driving sim. Euro trucker? Which doesn't actually have a zoom feature. Most of us aren't fighter pilots but everyone can relate to driving a car. Without a zoom feature the player in this game can't read road signs the way a real driver can or once again even see their own dashboard clearly. Honestly I'm not sure why this topic gets discussed so much in flight sims. It's all really simple stuff, field of view and resolution.
SCG_Neun Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 The best way to render icons IMO is the way it is done in IL246 where you can specify exact distances for things like plane type, pilot, distance etc.. Yep....that was a great system. Just another example how more options, instead of less, make a sim so much more enjoyable. I have to say....flying with a schwarm size group, utilizing good comms can narrow the gap between icons and no icons. In such a situation....I prefer no icons, every time....By myself, in hostile skies.....I'd like one of those little icons...black or gray in color with just the distance. In addition, being able to set icons for only friendly or vice versa...helps immersion by reducing the number of icons.....
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 But I've been testing the FOV all day. Fully zoomed out I can still see aircraft from a far distance. Zooming in helped ID the aircraft but once I got closer I could obviously ID them. (Feels like I'm stating the obvious.) I don't think it's really needed. And I'm flying on a 23'' 720p monitor. You only think you can see well enough but you can't. Try identifying a ground target from 6,000m and report back. You just said you needed to zoom in to ID the target but that it's not needed? That doesn't make sense.
SCG_Neun Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Most of us aren't fighter pilots but everyone can relate to driving a car. Without a zoom feature the player in this game can't read road signs the way a real driver can or once again even see their own dashboard clearly. Honestly I'm not sure why this topic gets discussed so much in flight sims. It's all really simple stuff, field of view and resolution. I think most everyone understands this, it is just a difference of your opinion verses others...on what feels more realistic and acceptable. Also, someone who doesn't use zoom might develop an extremely effective ability to compensate for what others..."zoom in" for. Like taking the training wheels off the bike..so to say.
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I think most everyone understands this,.Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case and this topic keeps raising its head on every flight sim with regular frequencyhttp://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/45793-binoculars-real-full/?fromsearch=1 And that why I still have those screenshots from DCS trying to explain it there too. It's fine for people to play these games how they like. But usually this topic involves the suggestion of forcing that style on all the other players through the difficulty setting. That's happening here in this thread too. Edited August 25, 2015 by SharpeXB
JG5_Schuck Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I look at it like this, Everybody likes to fly in their own way/style, some people with or without icons, zoom, tech tips, realistic controls, map contacts, etc. The question should not be whether we should have them or not, but more along the lines of we should give people the option/choice if they want to use them. I don't see as you can Force any style on anybody, as if you don't like the setting on a server, don't join it. (even though all the settings on a server are technically forced upon you!). But the choice SHOULD be there for those that want to implement them, and enjoy the game as they see fit. Having more of a choice will make the game (hopefully) more appealing to people who fly other sims, and if they buy the game that means more money to develop it, more maps, more planes, in other words more choice! Everyone's a winner! You only have to look at the numbers that still play Clod, Il2 46, and to some extent DCS and RoF, to realise something's missing with BoS. Even though BoS is by far the more superior game, in almost all respects. (IMO).
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 You only have to look at the numbers that still play Clod, Il2 46, and to some extent DCS and RoF, to realise something's missing with BoS. Even though BoS is by far the more superior game, in almost all respects. (IMO). None of those games make the zoom command a server option like you're suggesting because that's a really super awful idea. If you want to gimp your own gameplay go right ahead but don't expect everyone to join you.
JG5_Schuck Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I can only assume SharpeXB , That you have in fact sat in or even flown vintage aircraft wearing a flying helmet and goggles, to appreciate the claustrophobic and limited FOV you have. Peripheral vision......forget it, you don't have much, its like wearing blinkers! The default 'Gimpish' FOV in game is very close indeed. Im sure the Devs spent a lot of time researching just this before they implemented it in game. The noise from the engine and/or open cockpit render your hearing useless, and unless you have a head on a swivel (as you need in this game, TIR 5 a must) you don't notice another aircraft until its sat on you wingtip! So by all means, tell me I fly like a Gimp, but its the most realistic way you can do it in this game. Edited August 25, 2015 by JG.5_Schuck
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I can only assume SharpeXB , That you have in fact sat in or even flown vintage aircraft wearing a flying helmet and goggles, to appreciate the claustrophobic and limited FOV you have. Peripheral vision......forget it, you don't have much, its like wearing blinkers! The default 'Gimpish' FOV in game is very close indeed. Im sure the Devs spent a lot of time researching just this before they implemented it in game. The noise from the engine and/or open cockpit render your hearing useless, and unless you have a head on a swivel (as in game) you don't notice another aircraft until its sat on you wingtip! So by all means, tell me I fly like a Gimp, but its the most realistic way you can do it in this game. Nice pics! But it doesn't take being a real pilot to understand the limitations of a small PC screen. Anyone can understand that for themselves driving a car and imagine trying to do that on a sim. And you can't possibly say that the limits of size and resolution a player faces on a 20" computer monitor equals reality. And no other PC flight sim does what your asking and none of them ever would.
JG5_Schuck Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I absolutely agree with you, I just think we should all be allowed the choice to turn settings/features on or off, so we can all play the game in the style that we each enjoy. I mean, come on, we're all flight simmers on here right! And it may even encourage a few to come over from the dark side (CLoD, DCS etc) not such a bad thing! Edited August 25, 2015 by JG.5_Schuck 1
SharpeXB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I absolutely agree with you, I just think we should all be allowed the choice to turn settings/features on or off, so we can all play the game in the style that we each enjoy. I mean, come on, we're all flight simmers on here right! And it may even encourage a few to come over from the dark side (CLoD, DCS etc) not such a bad thing! No. Nobody would end up wanting to be handicapped unrealistically in the game so the setting would never get used. And once again. No other sim does this. These games are played online by only a few dozen people in the world at any one time. They can't afford getting split up by server settings so it's just not that important. You'll get your wish when VR takes over someday and zooming in and out will make people puke. Edited August 25, 2015 by SharpeXB
Bearcat Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 While I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with it, allow me to nitpick a little bit I think that the zoom with camera and zoom we have in flight simulations are exactly the same thing: they project a different field of view of an 3D object (virtual in the case of computer) onto a 2D surface. Or am I missing something here? Yes but the degree of zoom is different in the sims I mentioned. When I zoom in any of these sims the tightest zoom still leaves me in the cockpit.. The reason why zoom should not be an issue is because it is not unlimited.. In CFS1 if I could see a dot.l. I could zoom in on that dot till I could see it and get close.. and if I could keep it steady in my sight I could fire and hit it.. In IL246, BoS, DCS, and CoD it is not like that.. that is why IMO it is not a big deal. and anyone usiong zoom to scan the skies for bogies is limiting his FoV even more by doing so... I absolutely agree with you, I just think we should all be allowed the choice to turn settings/features on or off, so we can all play the game in the style that we each enjoy. I mean, come on, we're all flight simmers on here right! And it may even encourage a few to come over from the dark side (CLoD, DCS etc) not such a bad thing! I agree.. and certain settings should be server side settable only and others should not. Things like icons, views as in locked pits and external views, CEM, Ammo & vulnerability, Map should be server side settable.. Other things like zoom .. should not...
LLv24_Vilppi Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Yes but the degree of zoom is different in the sims I mentioned. When I zoom in any of these sims the tightest zoom still leaves me in the cockpit.. The reason why zoom should not be an issue is because it is not unlimited.. In CFS1 if I could see a dot.l. I could zoom in on that dot till I could see it and get close.. and if I could keep it steady in my sight I could fire and hit it.. In IL246, BoS, DCS, and CoD it is not like that.. Ah, OK, I see what you mean. I have not played CFS1 so I can't comment on that, but I think I understand what you mean. Personally, I'd prefer zoom level that would allow recognation and spotting from realistic distances as this affects the tactic one approaches a contact. Saying what the zoom level exactly is, is of course difficult as people have different kind of monitors. I got the feeling that I can actually spot better when I set BoS to less than my monitor's native resolution (30" 2560x1600 -> 1920x1200) but probably recognize worse, but I haven't actually done any testing to make sure if this is true. IRL people of course have different levels of vision, so deciding what the correct distance should be is not that trivial either... I'm all for having different servers with different difficulty settings. While I most of time enjoy more realistic (i.e. trying to recreate historical tactics and strategies to the limits possible in terms of a computer simulation) kind of game play, I don't mind more "casual" approach either. In fact most of the time I'm forced into more casual play style anyway as since I live in different time zone from most of my friends, flying in a group has proven difficult. I'm still having fun, so... And I do play other casual games when I feel like it. Which for some reason has been less lately, though. Maybe I'm just getting old and prefer rather complex, slower paced and boring titles like Gary Grigsby's War in the West, Combat Mission and even some civilian flight sims. So what do I know about having fun anyway . I guess when you start to get to the age when tying your shoelaces give you an adrenaline rush, starting up a virtual A10-C and getting it off the ground, flying to the next airfield and land using ILS gives a huge personal satisfaction, even if you are not "blowing [Edited] up". I have no problem what so ever with people enjoying games like War Thunder with mouse and keyboard either. It's not my cup of tea, but nobody's forcing me to do it and someone having fun doing something I personally don't enjoy is no threat to "my lifestyle" in any way, nor does it degrade my "not a computer game but a hard core full realistic aerial combat simulation for selfconscious adults" hobby in any way. In fact I'm hoping that more casual games work as a "gateway drug" to more serious interest in history and maybe more authentic simulators to some people who can then find a life long hobby from that (and we get more keen players interested in recreating those historical battles). I, in fact, get the feeling that we have quite a few people who have joined us from the War Thunder community and some of them are even enjoying more restricted settings. I wonder if the reason some people are adamant that they do not "play computer games" but "fly flight simulators" is that quite a few simmers are from the generation (I guess I'm in about the average simmer age group, born in the 70's) where computer games were still considered something only children or anti-social computer nerds play. I can tell you: it's OK now for adults to play with computers. Nerds rule the world now, so it's not a stigma anymore Sorry, I seem to rant and drift off a bit. Summa summarum: I prefer flying with as realistic settings as possible (to remind what I mean with this: settings allowing recreating real world tactics with expected real world results), in as authentic environment as possible (I might be the only person to actually prefer the original snow texture. It gave me the feeling of disorientation I've felt sometimes when walking on fresh fallen snow. Whether the snow during Stalingrad was anything like this is arguable of course.), with the best possible feeling of immersion (I'm afraid labels are a deal breaker for me). I'm still happy that we have servers with different settings for people who find different kind of game play fun. Edited September 3, 2015 by Bearcat
Bearcat Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 You might be right about that as far as the gamer simmer thing. For me I need icons...I never did think that flying full expert was a lot of fun. It's fun sometimes but I prefer to have icons and I don't want to be bothered with rewal navigation all the time either. In IL2 I have my icons set so that the type will appear @ .8k and the name will appear at .5k ...
Spacesheep Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 You might be right about that as far as the gamer simmer thing. For me I need icons...I never did think that flying full expert was a lot of fun. It's fun sometimes but I prefer to have icons and I don't want to be bothered with rewal navigation all the time either. In IL2 I have my icons set so that the type will appear @ .8k and the name will appear at .5k ... That solution of setting up the distance each information is displayed was something very usefull in old 1946, but is that possible to configure it on BOS??
SCG_Neun Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 That would be such a neat upgrade for this series.....to have that kind of flexibility managing icons....I mean let's face it..the way the icons are displayed now would be like touring Gettysburg Battefield and there's a roller coaster on Seminary Ridge....it's an immersion killer....
SharpeXB Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 way the icons are displayed now would be like touring Gettysburg Battefield and there's a roller coaster on Seminary Ridge....it's an immersion killer.... That's exactly how I feel.
tailwheel Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 I wouldn't play on a server that doesn't allow zoom. It's a trade off for monitor size/resolution as compared to what you would be able to see in real life. Plus at the widest field of view I still don't have the peripheral vision capabilities I do in real life, so when scanning for bogies I zoom way out and still cant see as well as I would like. this game should be fun, not a job or unpleasant experience. In real life when you focus in on something you 'blank out' much of your field of vision. Next time you're walking down the street, try it. you'll be surprised what your brain does in regards to vision. Check out the show 'brain games' to see how perception is altered by the brain.
SCG_Neun Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Galland's telescope...never really caught on...Plus.....it's not in the greatest place for a sudden impact.....How'd you'd like to run your face into that thing? Edited August 28, 2015 by JagdNeun
=EXPEND=Dendro Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Why this is even a question/concern baffles me.
LLv24_Zami Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Why this is even a question/concern baffles me. +1
Sokol1 Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 That solution of setting up the distance each information is displayed was something very usefull in old 1946, but is that possible to configure it on BOS?? No - I see dev's answer for a similar question in Russian forum during EA saying that is not necessary, ON or OFF is all the "new players" need.
SharpeXB Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) No - I see dev's answer for a similar question in Russian forum during EA saying that is not necessary, ON or OFF is all the "new players" need. The only sim I feel tempted to "cheat" and use the labels is DCS Flaming Cliffs where you are dogfighting other jets 10+ miles away. In WWII that's not a big deal if you can't easily see something that far away because it can't shoot you. But in DCS it can. So I don't consider it "cheating" since the AI can see me right? But I'll still just go for flipping it ON and OFF and mostly OFF rather than worry about customizing them which you can do in DCS anyways. In MP everyone is equally handicapped anyways so "cheating" isn't required. I'm just cheating to keep up with the AI in an "ok I give up where did he go" moment. But they're such a crutch I don't like using them. And there's better solutions coming next month in DCS 1.5. Edited August 28, 2015 by SharpeXB
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