Normal vs Expert?

[viktorkm89]

Hello

I just started playing and wonder little about what the difference are between Normal and Expert mode.

What I can understadn is that u need to to all the engine startup procedure with expert and in normal you just press "E"

But what about flight physics and things like that?

Is their aim assisstance and similiar things?

 

[coconut]

The flight physics are the same. The difference lies in icons and in engine management (radiators, mixture, RPM...). Engine startup is the same in all modes.

[SharpeXB]

It took me a while to realize this because perhaps I'm not so swift... But. Look at the colored squares by the options in the difficulty menu, that shows which one are enabled in Normal and Epxert.

[CIA_Yankee_]

I personally would recommend flying as expert, as the better multiplayer are expert as well, and it's quite a challenge to go from normal to expert cold turkey.

 

And expert is a lot more immersive, to be fair: you have to rely on instruments, land navigation (thankfully in single player you can still pause and view the map to orient yourself), visual spotting and identification of contacts. It's quite a challenge, but very rewarding.

[Y-29.Silky]

The flight physics are the same. The difference lies in icons and in engine management (radiators, mixture, RPM...). Engine startup is the same in all modes.

I don't think the physics are the same at all. I was pulling some insane maneuvers in Normal. Plus you can just enable it in the server configuration.

You have to rely on instruments, land navigation

And actually the tech chat allows you to not have to rely on instruments besides speed of course and in the most popular WoL Expert server by default you can see yourself on the map at all times. So OP it's not as hard as you may believe and definitely worth a go.

[LLv24_Zami]

Flight physics are the same in both settings, no doubt about that.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

i would suggest fly both! I personally find that they are two equally rewarding and challenging game modes but for different reasons. 

 

Normal is high pace action where it is very hard to disengage meaning that you normally have to fight to the bitter end. 

 

Expert is a slower pace but much more rewarding in terms of piloting skills such as navigation, aircraft management, spotting ......

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

You will not be sneaking up on anyone's six and blowing them away in a Normal server.....that's for sure.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Experten!.jpg

 

This is how Expert should be,

Not like the half-assed attempt we have at the moment.

A full real option for those who want it!

Which would be a small minority.  No head zoom?

 

There is absolutely no depth perception in any simulation whatsoever unless it is in 3 dimensions.  Head zoom compensates for that.  There are certain things in games that are basically a must or else it becomes less realistic than it actually is.  Lines are drawn between realism and gameplay, this would definitely be one of them. 

 

To take that away is just silly.  

[avlSteve]

You're gonna press E to start either way.

[SharpeXB]

This is how Expert should be,Not like the half-assed attempt we have at the moment.A full real option for those who want it!

Making head zoom part of the difficulty settings is a ridiculous idea as it's there to make up for how small and low res a computer screen is. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the small cockpit you see on your screen isn't life sized.

Edited August 21, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Y-29.Silky]

There's a reason why most WWII pilots were shot down by someone they never saw. The high powered, telescopic eyes we have now in today's simulators is just silly. I wouldn't mind the 1946 version of only 3 zoom options.

In this game, if you fully zoom in, you can see the person you're tailing through the clouds and in the sun.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Y-29.Silky]

^ Can't edit above.

 

But I've been testing the FOV all day. Fully zoomed out I can still see aircraft from a far distance. Zooming in helped ID the aircraft but once I got closer I could obviously ID them. (Feels like I'm stating the obvious.) I don't think it's really needed. And I'm flying on a 23'' 720p monitor.

Obviously obvious.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[BraveSirRobin]

^ Can't edit above.

 

But I've been testing the FOV all day. Fully zoomed out I can still see aircraft from a far distance. Zooming in helped ID the aircraft but once I got closer I could obviously ID them. (Feels like I'm stating the obvious.) I don't think it's really needed. And I'm flying on a 23'' 720p monitor.

 

Obviously obvious.

 

If you don't like it, don't use it.  Obviously obvious.

[SharpeXB]

Whether or not the zoom makes anything unrealistically large depends on how big your screen is and how close you sit.

As for resolution the best example is when driving your car in the real world you can read a road sign 100' away. On a 1080p screen you can't. In fact at 1080p you can't even read some of your instruments unless you zoom in.

[Jupp]

~S~ Fellas,

 

I have a 42" Sharp television that I use as a pc monitor at 1920 x 1080 resolution, from about 2' away.

 

I don't see anything wrong with using the zoom feature.

 

 

Blue Skies,

 

!S -Jupp-  

Edited August 23, 2015 by Jupp

[KodiakJac]

There's a reason why most WWII pilots were shot down by someone they never saw. The high powered, telescopic eyes we have now in today's simulators is just silly. I wouldn't mind the 1946 version of only 3 zoom options.

In this game, if you fully zoom in, you can see the person you're tailing through the clouds and in the sun.

 

+1

 

I never use zoom in combat flight sims.  It makes gunnery completely unrealistic shooting at targets the size of the Hindenburg.  Once in a while to see instruments, but never when fighting.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Bucksnort

[SharpeXB]

Once again the need for this feature depends on the size and resolution of your screen. And it's not an advantage, it's a compromise since by zooming in to see more detail you're giving up peripheral vision. Of course zooming in more than necessary is not worthwhile since your losing awareness. But just to a search for action videos by any good player and you'll see them varying their FOV constantly.

The best way for a player to use this is have it set up on an axis so it can be used quickly and smoothly.

 

The idea of having it as part of the difficulty settings isn't workable because effectively you're regulating what size of monitor the player can use. The majority of players are probably using a screen that's 20"-24" in size and 1080x1920. The zoom is an absolute necessity for that hardware if the player isn't using icons.

Edited August 23, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

It makes gunnery completely unrealistic shooting at targets the size of the Hindenburg.

That depends on the size of your screen and how close you are to it. Not the zoom feature. For a player with a typical 24" sized screen the full zoomed in is probably about 1:1 size.

 

The real gunsight in front of your face is actually this big.

Edited August 23, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

SharpeXB,

That may be true,

It is true. Things that are closer to you appear larger and things that are father away appear smaller. It's called perspective.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)

It's also true that the same image rendered on a larger screen will be larger than one on a smaller screen.

I'm not sure why the above is difficult for you to understand.

.

Im not asking to get rid of it, only to make it an option to prevent others from having this advantage.

What you're suggesting is really a ridiculous idea because based on the facts above, you're trying to regulate how large a players screen can be. There's no way to enforce players seeing everything in the game at no more than 1:1 size because you'd have to control what size of screen they use and how close they sit to it. Edited August 23, 2015 by SharpeXB

[BraveSirRobin]

+1

 

I never use zoom in combat flight sims.  It makes gunnery completely unrealistic shooting at targets the size of the Hindenburg.  Once in a while to see instruments, but never when fighting.

 

LOL  So you think it's more realistic when you can't see your instruments?  That explains a lot.

[KodiakJac]

LOL  So you think it's more realistic when you can't see your instruments?  That explains a lot.

 

 

There was a second sentence to my post.  Maybe you missed it:

 

"I never use zoom in combat flight sims.  It makes gunnery completely unrealistic shooting at targets the size of the Hindenburg.  Once in a while to see instruments, but never when fighting."

 

If there is an instrument I'm having trouble seeing, sure.  But I never use zoom for gunnery.  To suddenly zoom in for the kill shot makes me feel like I'm playing an arcade game and I immediately lose immersion.  YMMV.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Bucksnort

[SharpeXB]

It makes gunnery completely unrealistic shooting at targets the size of the Hindenburg.

Wow! You've got an 800' wide monitor? That's amazing!

[KodiakJac]

Wow! You've got an 800' wide monitor? That's amazing!

 

Experten pilots don't use zoom for gunnery!

[SharpeXB]

Experten pilots don't use zoom for gunnery!

Depends on how large their screen is. For gunnery? No probably not. If you need to use the zoom you're probably too far away. But for spotting, especially the ground targets it's quite necessary. Can you ID targets on the ground from 20,000' like a real pilot could? Without the zoom? Probably not. The zoom is there in these games so players can replicate what a real pilot could see while playing on desktop size 1080p screens.

Edited August 24, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Dakpilot]

I think this whole "zoom" needs to be a bit 'debunked'

 

First of all it is adjustable FOV (field of view  ) not 'zoom',  in an ideal world the FOV will give you a similar view point that is 1 to 1 same as RL , you can read your instruments and perspective is correct, (things don't warp around in cockpit) and things will have reasonably accurate 'scale size" this 'correct FOV will change depending on monitor size, distance from screen and aspect ratio of monitor, which is why it is adjustable

 

Unfortunately, at this realistic FOV in a game we are looking at the world through a monitor sized window, rather than 170 ish degree of human vision, so at correct FOV the view is 'blinkered' with no peripheral vision, even with Track IR or similar it is like looking at the world through a telescope and too restrictive

 

To get around this problem/restriction it is possible to widen the FOV to give better peripheral vision and a more 'comfortable' view of the world unfortunately this gives distorted images and leaves instruments unreadable, but it is a 'workaround;

 

So to recap, correct field of view is much more zoomed in than you would imagine, it is not cheating merely correct, you cannot have a fixed setting for this because of the many monitor sizes and infinite variable monitor view distances people use. If there was only one setting it would be only good for maybe 5% of users, one size does not fit all

 

which is why you have adjustable FOV to make up for the tech limitation that we are all looking though a letterbox (of different dimensions) without peripheral vision. 'Zoom' is not 'cheating'   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUWLbdcxyYg

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited August 24, 2015 by Dakpilot

[Dakpilot]

Meant to add this to above post but got sidetracked and ran out of time

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1XsPYPGcl0

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited August 24, 2015 by Dakpilot

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Besides a few bad habits you can pick up in Normal Server, I learnt a huge amount in a short time about aerial engagement and tactics and more importantly gunnery. The intensity and amount of engagements is great for training and shooting experience as well as watching how the top guys are doing it......... both on attack and defense. I highly recommend "normal" as a training tool for the expert environment.

 

~S~

Edited August 24, 2015 by DendroAspis

[SharpeXB]

Beside size, what changing the FoV in a game means is resolution. The issue with simulator games in general and fight sims specifically is since they focus on real world type tasks, the player needs real world vision. Small objects which a pilot or shooter would be able to see in reality are reduced in size to below a pixel and become invisible. It doesn't matter how large your screen is. Sim shooters like ARMA have a zoom effect when aiming for this reason since a real marrksman can see much better than 1080p

1080x1920 or even 4K represent such bad vision that nobody with this poor level of eyesight wouldn't qualify as a fighter pilot. The unwillingness to use this command in the game doesn't reflect some higher level of expertise, it in fact represents the opposite as the player is literally flying blind.

 

Look at this example. I'll use another sim but the point is the same:

 

"At 20,000 feet and with my naked eyes, I could tell the target was not military—at least most of it wasn’t. It consisted of lots of colorful vehicles. I could see blues, reds, and a lot of bright silver from bumpers reflecting the sun."

- A-10s over Kosovo

 

Now without using the zoom commands this realistic level of perception is impossible.

However using the zoom does allow the player to replicate this feat.

Screenshots, from 20,000' using the zoom. And you can make out which of these vehicles are military. Without the zoom they would all be completely invisible.

Edited August 24, 2015 by SharpeXB

[BraveSirRobin]

There was a second sentence to my post.  Maybe you missed it:

 

No, I saw it.  You only "zoom in" the FOV when you need to read your instruments, which means you usually fly around unable to see your instruments.  So you think it's more realistic that you can't see your instruments.

[KodiakJac]

Friends don't let friends use zoom for gunnery!

[SharpeXB]

Friends don't let friends use zoom for gunnery!

Just don't shoot any of your friends because you can't ID them.

[BraveSirRobin]

Friends don't let friends use zoom for gunnery!

 

Friends don't let friend fly around without being able to read their instruments.  If you want to also be blind when you're shooting, go right ahead.

[SharpeXB]

I'm just glad to know now which team to fly on so I won't get shot by my own guys who are blind. Also I'll know which blind victims to go prey on :-D

 

You all handicapping yourselves unrealistically in the name of "realism" is hilarious. You must not live very long...

 

It's Lieutenant "I don't use the Zoom" right here:

Takka takka takka takka!

 

Edited August 24, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Sokol1]

This is a "quick glance" at IL-2 panel, in default FOV (I dont know how many degrees is, is but based on 30/70/90 of old Il-2 is something close to 70).

 

 

Is not need use "ZOOM" to read the instruments - for one used to read the instruments in quick glance.

 

Is said that in old IL-2 the FOV 30 degrees (more narrow - things big, but restrict peripherical) is the more close to RL, so what have in this games are more ZOOM out than ZOOM in - using a FOV near 30 are not amplifying the image (relative to RL).

 

In CloD are some kind of ZOOM that work only inside the cockpit, make instruments big but don't amplify the external world. This last is done with FOV (using ~110% of amplification in TF patchs).

 

DCS seems use amplification in their ZOOM - without this is near impossible see anything far from ~2 km in that "world". 

 

 

[SCG_Neun]

I guess it's just what you prefer...but I really don't see any advantage to zooming in for gunnery anyway.  Tunnel vision, target fixation, an exaggerated movement and inability to settle on the target.  With guns set for 400 meters and less for convergence....why zoom?  Even if you are trying to run down a fleeing enemy....and lob some rounds in on him.....you could get killed yourself by fixating on him and not maintaining situational awareness of what's around you...

[SharpeXB]

 In CloD are some kind of ZOOM that work only inside the cockpit, make instruments big but don't amplify the external world. This last is done with FOV (using ~110% of amplification in TF patchs).

How on earth would that work? Any why would it? That sounds awfully stupid.

[SharpeXB]

This is a "quick glance" at IL-2 panel, in default FOV (I dont know how many degrees is, is but based on 30/70/90 of old Il-2 is something close to 70).

 

Ok I'm not sure what size screen you have. But if it's a normal desktop size monitor, do you really think a real IL-2 cockpit is that small?

And if the cockpit is too small, do you think that same perspective applies to everything else you see in the game?

It's not a difficult concept...

[LLv24_Vilppi]

You all handicapping yourselves unrealistically in the name of "realism" is hilarious. You must not live very long...

A tad off topic, but I really like the separation to realism, authentism and immersion when discussing flight and other military simulations.

 

In this sense the terms are loosely defined as follows:

 

Realism:

The validity of real world tactics and strategies.

Using real world tactics, procedures and strategies yield real world equivalent results.

 

Authentism:

Authentic look and feel of the simulated world.

How real everything looks and feels "real" and behaves in the in the correct manner. Including things like authentic sounds (volume included) and correct rivet counts.

 

Immersion:

The subjective feeling of existing in the simulated world.

The "being there" feeling. Combination of realism and authentism, spiced up with visual, aural and physical cues.

 

It is obvious that these three facets are NOT completely independent but instead are in some aspects mutually supportive, while in other aspects mutually exclusive. Finding the balance between these and nice gameplay can indeed be rather difficult.

 

If we consider the the use of zoom: The restrictions in the fidelity of the output devices we use (e.g. monitor resolution, contrast, depth perception, etc.) usually require the zoom function to be implemented to allow use of real world tactics (target acquisition and recognition from realistic distances).

 

Equally labels could be considered realistic -- maybe even more realistic than zoom if implemented correctly (i.e. giving "realistic" information for different distances, with possibility of misindentification. Good implemention might be very difficult, though).

 

Both zooming and labels are not authentic per se (our eyes don't zoom and the real world does not have labels). Even if there would exist a good implementation of labels, quite a few people (including myself) would still consider labels too much of a break from immersion and settle with something possibly "less realistic" and more challenging in terms of game play (for target acquisition and recognition). It can of course also be argued that learning the recognition of different planes is a realistic procedure (learning the recognition is a proper procedure in real world) even though due to visual fidelity well implemented labelling might give more realistic distances for recognition.

 

Immersion all in all is the most subjective of the three facets. The balance between realism and authenticity can naturally be considered to be one factor, but different "knacks" add to immersion. I think that BoS for example has very nice aural cues to give feeling of speeding through the air which contributes a lot to the general feeling of flying that so many people seem to like (me included). I think this that the modelling of turbulence are contributing a lot to the flying immersion in BoS.

 

The immersive factors don't always have to be realistic or authentic either. For example, commercial FFB joysticks do not have realistic or authentic required stick strentghts for different speeds and plane types. In CloD (and partly also in BoS) the FFB implementation gives a nice extra cue for the speed of the aircraft, and also gives cues (expecially in CloD and DCS) for stalling, engine operation (CloD) etc. The solution that BoS has (I can't remember if the effect exists in DCS or CloD, so it most likely is not at least as pronounced) with the ineffectivenes of the control inputs in high speeds is also quite a nice solution in terms of authentism and realism in my opinion, while due to lack of immersion (i.e. the physical feedback of the effect itself) it has a bit steeper learning curve.

 

I think these three facets are generally discussed all under the generic term of "realism", which sometimes causes confusion. Not to say that this is the only correct definition of realism, authentism and immersion, but I for one find it nice and clear distinction when talking about military simulations.

[Bearcat]

I personally would recommend flying as expert, as the better multiplayer are expert as well, and it's quite a challenge to go from normal to expert cold turkey.

 

And expert is a lot more immersive, to be fair: you have to rely on instruments, land navigation (thankfully in single player you can still pause and view the map to orient yourself), visual spotting and identification of contacts. It's quite a challenge, but very rewarding.

 

Immersion is relative... and for me having fun is just as important as being immersed. I would rather fly on a map that had limited icons and a map showing my position rather than one without.

 

Which would be a small minority.  No head zoom?

 

There is absolutely no depth perception in any simulation whatsoever unless it is in 3 dimensions.  Head zoom compensates for that.  There are certain things in games that are basically a must or else it becomes less realistic than it actually is.  Lines are drawn between realism and gameplay, this would definitely be one of them.

To take that away is just silly.  

 

I agree...

 

Making head zoom part of the difficulty settings is a ridiculous idea as it's there to make up for how small and low res a computer screen is. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the small cockpit you see on your screen isn't life sized.

 

I agree.. in fact if you zoom in full and look around your cockpit and out your window and imagine the rest of the plane frame around you you will see that full zoom is actually closer to the real size of things unfortunately mo polit cold fly anythiung if they had to sit in their cockpit and look through a 24"diagonal box...

 

There's a reason why most WWII pilots were shot down by someone they never saw. The high powered, telescopic eyes we have now in today's simulators is just silly. I wouldn't mind the 1946 version of only 3 zoom options.

In this game, if you fully zoom in, you can see the person you're tailing through the clouds and in the sun.

 

That is not what we have though... there is nothing telescopic about the zoom in BoS.. or in IL246 for that matter.. That is not how zoom works.. the last sim I flew where it did work that way, where you could zoom in on a distant object until it  came into view was CFS1. Also IL2 1946 has more than 3 options... you can zoom in on an axis or you can use the zoom in/out key mapped to a key press to repeat. That is how I have my zoom set up on my sticks for every sim I fly.

 

^ Can't edit above.

 

But I've been testing the FOV all day. Fully zoomed out I can still see aircraft from a far distance. Zooming in helped ID the aircraft but once I got closer I could obviously ID them. (Feels like I'm stating the obvious.) I don't think it's really needed. And I'm flying on a 23'' 720p monitor.

 

Obviously obvious.

 

That is why you don't think it's needed because you are flying a 23" 720P monitor. If you were flying on a 24" 1080 monitor , even if it still were not for you you would have a better understanding of why zoom is needed.  Also.. that is you.... Things like zoom should not be server side settable and should always be up to the individual pilot who knows his own eyes better than any server host.

 

Whether or not the zoom makes anything unrealistically large depends on how big your screen is and how close you sit.

As for resolution the best example is when driving your car in the real world you can read a road sign 100' away. On a 1080p screen you can't. In fact at 1080p you can't even read some of your instruments unless you zoom in.

 

It doesn't though.. again.. that is not how zoom in IL246, CoD, DCS or BoS  works.  Also how close you sit is irrelevant because any gamer unless he is using a huge screen is going to be 24"- 36" give or take from his screen, especially if he uses rudder pedals and TIR.

 

~S~ Fellas,

 

I have a 42" Sharp television that I use as a pc monitor at 1920 x 1080 resolution, from about 2' away.

I don't see anything wrong with using the zoom feature.

 

 

Blue Skies,

 

!S -Jupp-  

 

That's because there is nothing wrong with it. I could see it being an issue if it were actually zoom.. as in traditional camera zoom..  like it was in CFS 1 but that is not what we have in sims... at least not any of the ones we are all involved with to some degree namely the top 4 (BoS,DCS,CoD,IL246). It is a change of perspective more like.. stepping in and out of a frame of reference.

 

Great post PBV... IMO immersion and realism are two aspects of this hobby oif ours that often blur into one another.. For example.. For me when I consider immersion the fact that I am sitting at my desk looking through a 24" screen never escapes me.. so therefore things like labels and zoom do not kill immersion for me where as having a map that will show me the location of every other combatant in the  theater with an icon on a WWII aircraft would. So would not having to manage my fuel or my ammo or my engine. For me.. things like labels and zoom add to the immersion because from all accounts I have been told personally bey WWII pilots and have read.. they could see better in reality than we can in these sims and icons compensate for that. The best way to render icons IMO is the way it is done in IL246 where you can specify exact distances for things like plane type, pilot, distance etc..