Please listen to this before you score another kill...

[indiaciki]

It starts at at 7:00 min....

 

 

and this at 24:00 min ( on Chuck Yeager):

 

 

to me it sound like this:

 

 

deflection seems to be a favorite topic around here....here's a tutorial

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[Feathered_IV]

By the time I finished watching those the other plane had flown away...

[Original_Uwe]

I'm not sure what your getting at OP?

The interviews were cool but the FM clip?

[indiaciki]

It illustrates the logic of flying in order to get kills only if you were refering to FMJ. Sims are about flying not killing even if they are combat sims. If you're into killing then you have that "war is hell" FPS mindset. You could as well be a sick weirdo gunner.

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[FTC_Etherlight]

Well, no, air combat simulators are absolutely about flying and not about...mh...air combat? Which is pretty much about fighting an opponent in an aireal combat setting? That war thingy where planes shot down other planes? O.o There absolutely are flight sims that are solely about flying, not about shooting other aircraft down. Non-combat flightsims for example. ^^

 

In short: What the hell are you even talking about comparing a rambling lunatic who shoots at children and women to people who simulate being soldiers fighting other soldiers in a war setting? That's 1) offensive 2) nuts and 3) absolutely nuts.

[indiaciki]

Did you listen to Günther Rall's secend inteview about Chuck Yeager admitting war crimes? Writing them down? Would you have the guts to talk like this if your life was at stake and you had no respwan? I'm just talking about playing it as close to reality. In reality nobody want's to die or kill if he is sane enough. Think about it.

 

Don't get me wrong. I loved chuck. I have an autograph signed by him and I admired the man... didn't know until two days ago until i listened to Rall and I have no reason not to believe him.

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[Wulf]

Did you listen to Günther Rall's secend inteview about Chuck Yeager admitting war crimes? Writing them down? Would you have the guts to talk like this if your life was at stake and you had no respwan? I'm just talking about playing it as close to reality. In reality nobody want's to die or kill if he is sane enough. Think about it.

 

Don't get me wrong. I loved chuck. I have an autograph signed by him and I admired the man... didn't know until two days ago until i listened to Rall and I have no reason not to believe him.

 

 

One of the refreshing things I find about watching/listening to the recollections of German 'aces' is how self-effacing and modest they tend to be about their wartime exploits.  Gunther Rall is one and Erich Hartmann is another.  They did their duty as they saw it, suffered grievously as a consequence in most cases, but never complained about their treatment or gloried in their own much celebrated deeds.   When you contrast their observations about combat flying with those of some of the allied 'aces' - guys who talk about the 'thrill' of air combat and boast about their killing prowess, it just makes me feel  embarrassed.   I suspect a lot of these gung-ho types probably didn't get to see any combat in the early days of the War when the western allies were on the rough end of a thrashing, but even so, their observations about killing other human beings in air combat (probably very one-sided air combat in the last months of the War) sound at best immature and at worst down right offensive.  

Edited August 19, 2015 by Wulf

[J2_Trupobaw]

One of the refreshing things I find about watching/listening to the recollections of German 'aces' is how self-effacing and modest they tend to be about their wartime exploits.  Gunther Rall is one and Erich Hartmann is another.  They did their duty as they saw it, suffered grievously as a consequence in most cases, but never complained about their treatment or gloried in their own much celebrated deeds.   When you contrast their observations about combat flying with those of some of the allied 'aces' - guys who talk about the 'thrill' of air combat and boast about their killing prowess, it just makes me feel  embarrassed.   I suspect a lot of these gung-ho types probably didn't get to see any combat in the early days of the War when the western allies were on the rough end of a thrashing, but even so, their observations about killing other human beings in air combat (probably very one-sided air combat in the last months of the War) sound at best immature and at worst down right offensive.  

They may be encouraged to stick to "written by the victors" perspective for propaganda reasons... I didn't read much of WW2 Allied pilots, but I know Eddie Rickenbackers "auto"-biograsphy was such a POS, glorifying every smallest thing he and his mates did, whether noteworthy or not. Reading it did made me believe he must have been a "token American ace" hyped up by propaganda; later I've learned that book was ghostwritten and the man himself was much more modest.

 

The Germans, OTOH, will downplay their personal heroism... but they'll never ever let their reader forget about the hardships (climate, material, enemy numbers) they and their Kameraden had to work against.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Trupobaw

[BraveSirRobin]

One of the refreshing things I find about watching/listening to the recollections of German 'aces' is how self-effacing and modest they tend to be about their wartime exploits.  Gunther Rall is one and Erich Hartmann is another.  They did their duty as they saw it, suffered grievously as a consequence in most cases, but never complained about their treatment or gloried in their own much celebrated deeds.   When you contrast their observations about combat flying with those of some of the allied 'aces' - guys who talk about the 'thrill' of air combat and boast about their killing prowess, it just makes me feel  embarrassed.   I suspect a lot of these gung-ho types probably didn't get to see any combat in the early days of the War when the western allies were on the rough end of a thrashing, but even so, their observations about killing other human beings in air combat (probably very one-sided air combat in the last months of the War) sound at best immature and at worst down right offensive.  

 

Fighting for the side that put people in ovens probably helps to keep you humble.

[Dakpilot]

One of the refreshing things I find about watching/listening to the recollections of German 'aces' is how self-effacing and modest they tend to be about their wartime exploits.  Gunther Rall is one and Erich Hartmann is another.  They did their duty as they saw it, suffered grievously as a consequence in most cases, but never complained about their treatment or gloried in their own much celebrated deeds.   When you contrast their observations about combat flying with those of some of the allied 'aces' - guys who talk about the 'thrill' of air combat and boast about their killing prowess, it just makes me feel  embarrassed.   I suspect a lot of these gung-ho types probably didn't get to see any combat in the early days of the War when the western allies were on the rough end of a thrashing, but even so, their observations about killing other human beings in air combat (probably very one-sided air combat in the last months of the War) sound at best immature and at worst down right offensive.  

 

Well I doubt that much would have been published from any other point of view...you have to consider the times  and the market  also how many Luftwaffe 'Aces' were around to share their memoirs...by the end most were gone

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Wulf]

Fighting for the side that put people in ovens probably helps to keep you humble.

 

 

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the issue, but yes, the Germans did some horrendous things; that's true.  But then we were hardly angles either were we.  Even before we were formally aware of the true scope of the holocaust, we were deliberately incinerating cities full of women and children - even when it was patently unnecessary to do so.  And then after the War, after all the fighting had stopped, we implemented a deliberate policy of willful neglect that resulted in the deaths or approximately 1 million German POWs  - in camps in western Europe.  Men forced to survive out in the open, without food or medical care or sanitation; left to die from hunger and disease.  Hardly our finest hour.  And what's worse, it didn't even have a humbling affect on our 'aces'.  Oh well, all in the past now.

[unreasonable]

One of the refreshing things I find about watching/listening to the recollections of German 'aces' is how self-effacing and modest they tend to be about their wartime exploits.  Gunther Rall is one and Erich Hartmann is another.  They did their duty as they saw it, suffered grievously as a consequence in most cases, but never complained about their treatment or gloried in their own much celebrated deeds.   When you contrast their observations about combat flying with those of some of the allied 'aces' - guys who talk about the 'thrill' of air combat and boast about their killing prowess, it just makes me feel  embarrassed.   I suspect a lot of these gung-ho types probably didn't get to see any combat in the early days of the War when the western allies were on the rough end of a thrashing, but even so, their observations about killing other human beings in air combat (probably very one-sided air combat in the last months of the War) sound at best immature and at worst down right offensive.  

 

Many of them were keen enough to chase a big score so that they could get their Knight's Cross mitt Baubles. The reality is that war is exciting for many people, and immaturity is hardly surprising given that so many of these pilots were barely out of their teens. No doubt an extended experience of battle was a sobering experience, but let us not imagine that the likes of Hartmann and Rall were not elated by their first few victories.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the issue, but yes, the Germans did some horrendous things; that's true.  But then we were hardly angles either were we.  Even before we were formally aware of the true scope of the holocaust, we were deliberately incinerating cities full of women and children - even when it was patently unnecessary to do so.  And then after the War, after all the fighting had stopped, we implemented a deliberate policy of willful neglect that resulted in the deaths or approximately 1 million German POWs  - in camps in western Europe.  Men forced to survive out in the open, without food or medical care or sanitation; left to die from hunger and disease.  Hardly our finest hour.  And what's worse, it didn't even have a humbling affect on our 'aces'.  Oh well, all in the past now.

 

The claim that 1 million POWs died in US camps after the war is nonsense.  It never happened.

[Wulf]

Many of them were keen enough to chase a big score so that they could get their Knight's Cross mitt Baubles. The reality is that war is exciting for many people, and immaturity is hardly surprising given that so many of these pilots were barely out of their teens. No doubt an extended experience of battle was a sobering experience, but let us not imagine that the likes of Hartmann and Rall were not elated by their first few victories.

 

 

Yes, but we are talking about men who have since had decades to reflect on their actions.  Looking back gleefully (almost romantically)  at the part you played snuffing out some mother's son seems obscene to me.

[=38=Tatarenko]

FWIW my grandfather was taken prisoner by the US and never had anything but the kindest words for how he was treated once he left France. His treatment at the hands of US troops in France wasn't ideal but wasn't terrible either by any means. At one point he even managed to just walk away from them but he was picked up by the resistance. Overall he counted himself extremely lucky to have survived at all, having been through France 40, Russia 41-44 then D-Day till Sept. 44. He went all the way to the States as a prisoner and was released on parole there and worked on a farm.

 

From my (limited) understanding, those Germans rounded up at the end of the war by troops who had liberated concentration camps etc had it worse. Not surprising really.

[LukeFF]

 

 

And then after the War, after all the fighting had stopped, we implemented a deliberate policy of willful neglect that resulted in the deaths or approximately 1 million German POWs  - in camps in western Europe.

 

Absolute, utter nonsense. Tell me, what was going on in Western Europe in the fall of 1944 and the spring of 1945?  

 

 

Even before we were formally aware of the true scope of the holocaust, we were deliberately incinerating cities full of women and children - even when it was patently unnecessary to do so.

 

And what cities were those? 

[Feathered_IV]

Tatarenko, I suspect thats got a lot to do with how a veteran looks back on their service in WW2.  A US airman for example, with hindsight and knowledge of Germany's conduct would be likely to feel a degree of satisfaction over defeating his enemy.  A German airman who in peacetime would perhaps (or hopefully) feel conflicting emotions about his valued service to Adolf Hitler and killing of those who sought to liberate Europe, might be rather more sudued when recalling his contribution to the extension of the war.

[=38=Tatarenko]

 

And what cities were those? 

 

 

Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo (more people died from firebombs there than from the nuclear bombs)

 

and many many others. Hannover, Koeln, Berlin etc. The Americans did their best with daylight bombing to attack in a planned way (within the limits of 40's tech and with exceptions such as Dresden and Tokyo) but the British just tried for indiscriminate mass destruction and slaughter with night raids because they couldn't mount daylight campaigns.

Edited August 19, 2015 by =38=Tatarenko

[=38=Tatarenko]

Tatarenko, I suspect thats got a lot to do with how a veteran looks back on their service in WW2.  A US airman for example, with hindsight and knowledge of Germany's conduct would be likely to feel a degree of satisfaction over defeating his enemy.  A German airman who in peacetime would perhaps (or hopefully) feel conflicting emotions about his valued service to Adolf Hitler and killing of those who sought to liberate Europe, might be rather more sudued when recalling his contribution to the extension of the war.

 

You may be answering someone else? Doesn't seem to be a reply to me.

But yes, many Germans later felt duped by Hitler and ashamed of having done his bidding. Of course.

[Feathered_IV]

You may be answering someone else? Doesn't seem to be a reply to me.

 

Your last line made me think of it I guess.

[Wulf]

Absolute, utter nonsense. Tell me, what was going on in Western Europe in the fall of 1944 and the spring of 1945?  

 

 

I know.  It's always unsettling when things conflict with the mainstream narrative.

 

There are books that cover the issue if you care to look.  There's also plenty of info on Google.

.

[ACG_pezman]

I think Rall had a point in that second video when he said that air combat was emotionally intense experience; and that can be applied to war in general as well.  The atrocities committed in the air by all sides, and on the ground as well, were fueled by the emotions of things they had seen, witnessed, or observed the aftermath of.  The first city to be bombed in WWII was done so by complete accident, which fueled the response, which in turn justified another response, and it just keeps growing in emotion, intensity, and frequency.  I don't think we understand exactly how awful and reprehensible war really is, and no one on this forum has ever seen anything the likes of what our parent and grandparents did.

 

The stupid, trifling, back and forth in this thread is just as stupid as boasting about kills.

Edited August 19, 2015 by volc0m_

[Dakpilot]

I think Rall had a point in that second video when he said that air combat was emotionally intense experience; and that can be applied to war in general as well.  The atrocities committed in the air by all sides, and on the ground as well, were fueled by the emotions of things they had seen, witnessed, or observed the aftermath of.  The first city to be bombed in WWII was done so by complete accident, which fueled the response, which in turn justified another response, and it just keeps growing in emotion, intensity, and frequency.  I don't think we understand exactly how awful and reprehensible war really is, and no one on this forum has ever seen anything the likes of what our parent and grandparents did.

 

The stupid, trifling, back and forth in this thread is just as stupid as boasting about kills.

 

There would be less back and forth if people didn't keep trying to re-write history.....I guess the Luftwaffe accidently carried out an unrestricted massive  Bombing campaign of Warsaw in 1939

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Warsaw_(1939)

 

I know.  It's always unsettling when things conflict with the mainstream narrative.

 

There are books that cover the issue if you care to look.  There's also plenty of info on Google.

.

 

Do you also read a lot of Moon landing articles on google

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited August 19, 2015 by Dakpilot

[FlatSpinMan]

BSR - your comment derailed the thread. You know to leave that kind of stuff outside the forum.

[BraveSirRobin]

BSR - your comment derailed the thread. You know to leave that kind of stuff outside the forum.

 

I'm not the one who made the idiotic comment about how humble the Nazi heroes were when compared to the guys who put an end to the slaughter.  THAT is what put this thread off the rails.

I know.  It's always unsettling when things conflict with the mainstream narrative.

 

There are books that cover the issue if you care to look.  There's also plenty of info on Google.

.

 

I've read plenty of books about the war.  The claim of 1 millions dead German POWs is ridiculous nonsense.

The first city to be bombed in WWII was done so by complete accident, 

 

No, it wasn't.  The German bombing of Warsaw was very much intentional.

Edited August 19, 2015 by BraveSirRobin

[Chuck_Owl]

I'm not the one who made the idiotic comment about how humble the Nazi heroes were when compared to the guys who put an end to the slaughter.  THAT is what put this thread off the rails.

 

German pilots were not necessarily part of the Nazi party. A lot of them weren't and openly resented the Party. You should know better.

Edited August 19, 2015 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[BraveSirRobin]

German pilots were not necessarily part of the Nazi party. A lot of them weren't and openly resented the Party. You should know better.

That's why I called them "Nazi heroes", which they most definitely were.  Hartmann might have been their biggest hero.  If he resented being treated like a hero by Hitler, he did a pretty good job of hiding it.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I dont like such discussions, especially that so many virtual pilots try to be or feel like real pilots. Your desk cant pull the G's and you are not risking your life so some should just chill out and keep the things in the area of entertainment, not stuffing it with politics or trying to give it a deeper sense. 

 

 

 

No, it wasn't.  The German bombing of Warsaw was very much intentional.

Yes, it was intentional.

And no, Warsaw was not the first city being bombed. It was Wieluń, the very first city being bombed the very first day of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Wielu%C5%84

 

Last but not least, many of the future German pilots started their career in Poland, some of them participated in common actions against civilian refugees, who were strafed on daily basis. I'm sure some here know this picture :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Polish_victim_of_German_Luftwaffe_action_1939.jpg

[DD_bongodriver]

Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo (more people died from firebombs there than from the nuclear bombs)

 

and many many others. Hannover, Koeln, Berlin etc. The Americans did their best with daylight bombing to attack in a planned way (within the limits of 40's tech and with exceptions such as Dresden and Tokyo) but the British just tried for indiscriminate mass destruction and slaughter with night raids because they couldn't mount daylight campaigns.

 

How many people did the Germans kill in Great Britain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Greece and the Soviet Union?

 

The Americans did their best with daylight bombing to attack in a planned way (within the limits of 40's tech and with exceptions such as Dresden and Tokyo) but the British just tried for indiscriminate mass destruction and slaughter with night raids because they couldn't mount daylight campaigns.

 

 

 

Utter tripe, the British could and did conduct daylight raids, we can argue until blue in the face as to why the Americans conducted daylight raids but the results made a perfect advertisement for why night raids made sense, the Allied bomb sights were not the marvel they purported to be and civilians still died in American raids, the Americans only entered the war in 43 and none of their civilians ever saw an enemy bomber or the indiscriminate V1 and V2 murder weapons.

 

 

You may be answering someone else? Doesn't seem to be a reply to me.

But yes, many Germans later felt duped by Hitler and ashamed of having done his bidding. Of course.

 

What aim did they think they were serving? considering the bulk of the German military was not Nazi affiliated they could easily have refused to fight for that self serving Lunatic.

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

The first city to be bombed in WWII was done so by complete accident

 

??? an accident?.........so they all said 'oops' as they hit the pickle switch on their fully armed bombers? 

[Hoots]

The raf bombing campaign may not have had the intended industrial damage but conversely it was the only tool available to hit back. On top of that how many guns and soldiers did it remove from the front lines, how many shells weren't available for the front line troops.

[SCG_Neun]

"The German Aces Speak: World War II through the Eyes of Four of the Luftwaffe's Most Important Commanders" and I quote from Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF (RET): "As a fighter pilot in two wars, I suppose I have the unique distinction in the minds of many of being one of the first combat pilots to fly fighters from the piston engine to the jet age. However, this would be untrue. It was the German pilots of the Luftwaffe who broke that barrier.

 

I have had the pleasure of knowing a few German pilots from World War II, most notably the late Adolf Galland, a man I respected and admired for many reasons. Galland and a handful of selected young Germans took to the skies to serve their nation, not a political agenda. Most of these men were never involved in politics, and none that I knew even supported the political ideology of their nation or its leadership. That being said, I think that the time has come to place these men, as one must place all warriors, into the proper perspective. They were men serving their nation and doing their job. Nothing less.

 

What I did experience firsthand was the caliber of these pilots. You had to be sharp, and on your game, or you would be killed. Colin Heaton’s expert interviewing methods have brought these stories and these men back to life. The hardships thy endured as pilots I can readily comprehend as those are universal. However what is beyond my experience, thank God, was their struggle against their own leadership at the same time they were fighting a war of national survival.

 

Colin has become great friends with many of us over the years, and his focus upon even the smallest detail comes through. However, what is perhaps the most important factor is that his works, in particular this book, illustrate the humanity and chivalry felt by my enemies toward their opponents, something that sometimes gets lost in the postwar rhetoric.

This book is truly a testament to good men doing a tough job. Even though they were my enemies, I can still call them my brothers. I hold no ill will against the Germans I fought, just the opposite. I admired their skill, and feared their effectiveness, and after the war I enjoyed their company.

 

I hope that the rest of the world can also allow these pilots, these men, to be accepted as national heroes in their own country. They should be proud of their dedication to Germany. I am proud to have fought against such worthy adversaries, who were good men.”

Edited August 19, 2015 by JagdNeun

[J2_Trupobaw]

There would be less back and forth if people didn't keep trying to re-write history.....I guess the Luftwaffe accidently carried out an unrestricted massive  Bombing campaign of Warsaw in 1939

 

 

Warsaw was a fortress, manned with troops and preparing for a siege, which made it a legitimate target. Saturation - bombed cities like Dresen... not so much. Guy you quote probably meant Coventry, though.

 

German pilots were not necessarily part of the Nazi party. A lot of them weren't and openly resented the Party. You should know better.

 

German pilots were forbidden by law from joining Nazi party until 1944, a reminder of Imperial law that required soldiers to be above influence of political parties. To be a Nazi, a Luftwaffe pilot would have to join the party before draft age, as a teenager. Such fanatics did exist, but were very few.

 

 

That's why I called them "Nazi heroes", which they most definitely were.  Hartmann might have been their biggest hero.  If he resented being treated like a hero by Hitler, he did a pretty good job of hiding it.

 

He got heavily drunk before meeting Hitler, and commented to Kurpinsky that the man is out of touch with reality immediately after it was concluded.

 

How many people did the Germans kill in Great Britain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Greece and the Soviet Union?

 

 

In saturation bombings? Definetely less than Britons/Americans. 

[DD_bongodriver]

In saturation bombings? Definetely less than Britons/Americans. 

 

 

Oh no I didn't mean anything quite so evil, I meant softer stuff like gas chambers, executions and indiscriminate experimental weapons.

 

 

p.s i forgot to add Germany to my list.

Edited August 19, 2015 by DD_bongodriver

[Chuck_Owl]

Someone remind me the point of this pointless thread again?

[von_Greiff]

@Chuck:

[DD_bongodriver]

Someone remind me the point of this pointless thread again?

 

Don't know to be honest.........to keep things interesting here?

[indiaciki]

It is pointless. I was arguing that a lot of people in this forum are obsessed with getting kills, don't mind landing the aircraft, don't bother getting killed if they can score a kill. It was my intention to illustrate what "kill" means. A sim i a tool. You shoul try to fly it like a sim and not like counterstrike. Not every sortie has to result in a kill. But it seems that I missed the point. I noticed a mindset in many posts all over the forum that resembled the gunner from Full Metal Jacket and an implicit portrayal of combat pilots being primarily killers. Fighters are above all defencive weapons as opposed to bombers that are offensive weapons.

[DD_bongodriver]

for a fighter pilot, getting a 'kill' is the ultimate validation of your skill and training, surviving is the other, a fighter is no more a defensive weapon than a machine gun, it's just another weapon.

 

 

it doesn't really matter how you play a piece of entertainment software, the important thing is you should be able to use it in anyway you want and not be dictated how it 'should' be done. in a game there are no consequences so it matters very little.

[indiaciki]

It matters very much. It's the difference between simulating historical combat (as much as possible) or flying a sim like a fps with 3d environment. For a fighter pilot the ulimate thrill was having his plane and squadron home without losses. Having denied someone else hos airspace or having protected bombers or made the oppnents mission fail. The kill count was propaganda for most parts. Exploited for media at home.