Silly start ups

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

And we do that in the loadout screen. Simulation can be taken to different levels. There's more than black and white people just need to see it.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SharpeXB]

And we do that in the loadout screen. Simulation can be taken to different levels. There's more than black and white people just need to see it.

Now I'm confused. First you guys ask for a manual startup done with key commands. So I posted an example of exactly what that would look like. Now you think it's too complicated.

 

And hey checking the load out screen is the equivalent of the real pilot checking the fuel level by asking the ground crew "Hey did you guys remember to fill up the tank? Ok thanks..." (Don't do this if you ever fly a real plane)

 

Bottom line, without a mouse interactive cockpit, implementing too many complex controls on the planes isn't workable. In fact I'm not aware of any other flight sim game today that does this. They are either study sims with clickable pits like X-Plane or DCS that don't really focus on air combat with lots of opposing aircraft like this game has, due to the expense of creating those systems. Or games are like RoF, BoS, Flaming Cliffs and IL-2 1946 which simplify the systems so they can create more aircraft on a budget. So what you guys are asking for afaik has not been done in any game. Are there any flight sims which feature complex controls and yet make the player use a keyboard for them?

Edited August 18, 2015 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

Now I'm confused. First you guys ask for a manual startup done with key commands. So I posted an example of exactly what that would look like. Now you think it's too complicated.

 

 

 

Perhaps I read it wrong, but seems to me the discussion was mainly around taking the same sequences that are already there and automated, and allowing them to be controlled manually for those that might wish to do so. Not necessarily adding a bunch of complex manual engine starting procedures, ala DCS.

[SharpeXB]

Perhaps I read it wrong, but seems to me the discussion was mainly around taking the same sequences that are already there and automated, and allowing them to be controlled manually for those that might wish to do so. Not necessarily adding a bunch of complex manual engine starting procedures, ala DCS.

As near as I can tell that's the same thing.

So if they change the startup to three keys like Flaming Cliffs instead of one, why is that so great? I would rather they work on other features for the game. I'm sure you guys are underestimating the programming work this would all take. You're also not thinking through the fact that there are at least 20 aircraft planned for these games and adding complex individual commands for these without clickable cockpits is too arduous on the players.

 

And once again I think the feature you're all asking for doesn't exist in any other flight sim. Show me an example if I'm not correct. How does the startup work in 1946?

Edited August 18, 2015 by SharpeXB

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Perhaps I read it wrong, but seems to me the discussion was mainly around taking the same sequences that are already there and automated, and allowing them to be controlled manually for those that might wish to do so.

Exactly. But it's hopeless to convince Sharp so I don't even try. You can win nothing by discusing with extremists that refuse to see the big picture.

 

And hey checking the load out screen is the equivalent of the real pilot checking the fuel level by asking the ground crew "Hey did you guys remember to fill up the tank? Ok thanks..." (Don't do this if you ever fly a real plane)

If that's not good enough for you charge 777 to implement sth more realistic. The intention behind this request is not to charge devs with big piles of extra work but to make the best out of what we currently have with minimal effort.

 

So what you guys are asking for afaik has not been done in any game.

Pure rubbish. Take a closer look at the M. Flight Simulator series.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SharpeXB]

 Pure rubbish. Take a closer look at the M. Flight Simulator series.

I had FSX, it had clickable cockpits as I recall. Also lets stick to games made in this era. I'm sure there were early dark ages sims where players had to memorize a bunch of obscure multi-key press commands to operate the planes. That wouldn't sell today.

I'm also talking about "combat flight sims" which actually DCS, FSX etc are not. I'm mean games like this one or 1946 that features dozens of opposing planes that fight against each other and a map.

[KoN_]

You can adjust the controls before hitting "E" and it will settle on those positions after the start-up procedure.  That may help you out. 

Thats has worked for me , my mistake i thought it was all auto . 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

I had FSX, it had clickable cockpits as I recall. Also lets stick to games made in this era. I'm sure there were early dark ages sims where players had to memorize a bunch of obscure multi-key press commands to operate the planes. That wouldn't sell today.

I'm also talking about "combat flight sims" which actually DCS, FSX etc are not. I'm mean games like this one or 1946 that features dozens of opposing planes that fight against each other and a map.

What is your definition of a combat flight sim if DCS isn't one according to you. You can have dozens of opposing planes on a map.

Edited August 18, 2015 by RoflSeal

[SharpeXB]

What is your definition of a combat flight sim if DCS isn't one according to you. You can have dozens of opposing planes on a map.

But DCS doesn't have dozens of opposing planes. It currently has 3 WWII aircraft.

I'm making a distinction between "study sims" that focus on operating every control and system on an aircraft vs "air combat sims" which by definition need more than just a few aircraft to make them playable.

 

Study Sims:

DCS Full Systems planes like Fw-190 and civilian flight sims like X-Plane 10

 

Air Combat Sims:

Rise of Flight, IL-2 series, DCS Flaming Cliffs.

 

The only game I can think of that tried to be both was Cliffs of Dover and it failed. DCS World lets all these planes live together in the same game but has comparatively very few compared to the "air combat" games. Trying to combine these types of games is problematic because the cost of making planes with full systems is at odds with the goal of making the numbers of them that makes air combat simulation more achievable.

 

Somewhere back in the BoS developer diaries there was a quote from the Devs that said something like "There are two kinds of simulators; simulators of equipment and simulators of events. BoS is the simulation of an event, not a simulation of how to operate the equipment" So it's that distinction I'm referring to.

Edited August 18, 2015 by SharpeXB

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

You see, it's pointless. People are right, this is slowly developing into a WT forum 2.0 no matter how reasonable you try to be. Be it. I don't care. I like manual engine startup and give a +1 to the OP for his open suggestion, no matter who and why comes here to rage like a little girl because he/she doesn't like it.

[Stig]

If we want hardcore realism we should probably be spawning in an aircraft with the engine running and warmed up, ready to roll. The ground crew having started the engine(s) and gone through system checks before the mission.

[Dakpilot]

You see, it's pointless. People are right, this is slowly developing into a WT forum 2.0 no matter how reasonable you try to be. Be it. I don't care. I like manual engine startup and give a +1 to the OP for his open suggestion, no matter who and why comes here to rage like a little girl because he/she doesn't like it.

 

Trouble is you are the first to throw insults and rage like a girl when others don't see your point of view,

 

which people are right?

 

see it works both ways

 

Cheers Dalpilot

[BraveSirRobin]

You see, it's pointless. People are right, this is slowly developing into a WT forum 2.0 no matter how reasonable you try to be. Be it. I don't care. I like manual engine startup and give a +1 to the OP for his open suggestion, no matter who and why comes here to rage like a little girl because he/she doesn't like it.

 

Actually, it looks like you're the one insulting people.

[Sokol1]

 

 

How about how CLOD does it?  

 

 

Like in il-2(46). The only real diference is the need of open the fuel cock, and set throttle - what varies from 0 do the 2" (In true a Spitfire engine will start with throttle in ~30%, but this will shake the plane a lot), the few other controls available - by "click's" or press -  is "what if" fo engine start... 

 

BoB:WoV is better in this department.

 

The only reason that make me buy some (few) DCS planes in this year (previously I have only Ka-50), was this detailed procedures (the "FM/DM" and more important "What to do" dont worth the [expensive] cost per plane), due this I use this rule:

For each plane delete the Win+Home "cheat" shortcut.

But I skip all  "what if" procedures, so I can start a Ka-50 in ~3 minutes, I see a check list able to maintain the "virpolov" occupied for about half hour... 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sokol1

[Brano]

Let mechanics to deal with those check-ups and such.We are here to push the throttle to the limit and fire those big guns 

[LukeFF]

If we want hardcore realism we should probably be spawning in an aircraft with the engine running and warmed up, ready to roll. The ground crew having started the engine(s) and gone through system checks before the mission.

 

Which is what happens right now in campaign mode.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'd still like it on a five or six button push sequence plus good throttle placement as I always ground start anyway.

[=LD=Penshoon]

I'd still like it on a five or six button push sequence plus good throttle placement as I always ground start anyway.

If you fly the Russian planes this is kinda how it works right now, if you don' set the mixture, rpm, rads and throttle to the correct position before pressing E there is a change it will skip setting them for you and the engine won't catch making you go through a full shut down procedure before you can try again. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

And I'm totally down for that..............except I'm a Luftwhiner. Bring the start up, plus a couple more things (fuelcock, mags, etc), to the dark side as well.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

The clickable cockpits were a chief mistake in CoD that it has already been stated won't be repeated in this game. They add way too much cost to making the planes and don't add much to the air combat aspect. And without clickable cockpits, all the complex systems are too much of a pain for the players.

So.I didn't mean "find the pedcock" in the meaning if we should model a click able pedcock. I was only referring to how.clod does it. What suggesting is we just allow the fuel to be a controlable featuren a button press to switch tanks, as an example.

 

What I really think a great way to do it would have been how you can navigate in RoF. You could bring up a mouse screen to bring up your map and change somethings in the gui. I'd love to leverage that screen for a startup proceedure.

 

Basically you have a list of icons for each system, you click on each icon in it's appropriate order to accomplish startup.

 

It's a click able pit, with put having to locate all the buttons around the pit.

[SharpeXB]

What I really think a great way to do it would have been how you can navigate in RoF. You could bring up a mouse screen to bring up your map and change somethings in the gui. I'd love to leverage that screen for a startup proceedure.

 

Basically you have a list of icons for each system, you click on each icon in it's appropriate order to accomplish startup.

 

It's a click able pit, with put having to locate all the buttons around the pit.

Now that's a better idea. Anything but using a keyboard.

[SharpeXB]

The trouble with keyboards is that they're awkward. They're made for typing, not gaming. And I imagine most sim players "cockpits" don't have one in easy reach. It's not really possible to arrange a stick, throttle and keyboard in such a way that you can really use all of them well. The only key commands I use in any flight sim is like E and G for he landing gear, that's it. And the engine start stuff would all end up being multiple key commands since all the single ones are taken for more used functions.

I don't actually use a keyboard for any game. Since I'm a hunt and peck typist. Can't really play a game that way it's pretty awful.

THIS!

http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/g13-advanced-gameboard

Is the best game control device ever made. Really great. It's what a keyboard would be if it was made for gaming. Much more ergonomic than a qwerty. I use it for shooters mostly although it could be programmed for sim commands easy enough.

[dburne]

Now that's a better idea. Anything but using a keyboard.

 

Key commands can easily be programmed to HOTAS buttons.

I use all kinds of key commands in my flight sims, but never touch the keyboard.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Hooves has a really good idea. I'd like it as long as I also have the option to just program the functions to my HOTAS as well.

[Y-29.Silky]

Whoever can't start a Russian aircraft..

 

Set your mixture before you press "E" and the engine won't cut out. Especially in the La-5.

 

I agree with SharpeXB, I would absolutely HATE it if I had to bind 20 more keys on my keyboard just to start my engine, for each aircraft. Turn on tech chat and see the process for the Yak-1 alone.

I only have 10 fingers and my HOTAS keys are set to manage my engine during flight/combat.

Since all the switches/levers move when you press E anyways, I would not mind to see clickable cockpits being an option.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I agree with SharpeXB, I would absolutely HATE it if I had to bind 20 more keys on my keyboard just to start my engine, for each aircraft. Turn on tech chat and see the process for the Yak-1 alone.

No one demanded 20+ keys.

What functions do we we have in BoS that CAN be set to manual controll:

 

1. Electrical power switch (including all sub switches)

2. Magneto selector switch

3. Starter

4. Primer pump

5. Mixture

6. Prop pitch/RPM

7. Radiator(s)

[8. Fuel tank selector] <- not really nessecary for startup nor in midflight because it's autmated for the whole flight anyway

It's tireing so I repeat it for the last time. The suggestion is about engine and plane controlls already implemented into the game, not about any new game feautures that would increase either the devs or the players workload.

 

And no one sayed everyone should be forced to use manual startup but that it can be an option for those who like it. It's taking nothing away from the current game.

 

Hope this is easier to read and understand.

 

 

[dburne]

No one demanded 20+ keys.

It's tireing so I repeat it for the last time. The suggestion is about engine and plane controlls already implemented into the game, not about any new game feautures that would increase either the devs or the players workload.

 

And no one sayed everyone should be forced to use manual startup but that it can be an option for those who like it. It's taking nothing away from the current game.

 

 

+1.

That is the way I read it all along. I am with you on this one.

[AbortedMan]

Sorry but manual startups with combo key presses would be awful and nobody would end up using the feature. Only clickable cockpit sims can get into that complexity.

They would be something most people would try out once or twice for novelty's sake, and then go right back to the automated procedure. Heck, even DCS, with it's ultra-complex startups, has a simple engine start keypress for those that don't want to go through the rigamarole of pressing a bunch of keys just to key their plane started.

Speak for yourselves...I enjoy manually started engines in games like DCS...and using a TM Warthog HOTAS there's enough switches and buttons that I don't have to touch my keyboard for any of the WW2 aircraft (plus the Saber) other than the circuit breakers in the FW190 (which feels more appropriate on the keyboard anyway due to the CB setup).

 

You guys gotta remember that you aren't single-handed spokesmen for the BoS community when writing your posts.

[SharpeXB]

Key commands can easily be programmed to HOTAS buttons.

I use all kinds of key commands in my flight sims, but never touch the keyboard.

Of course you can program key commands into a HOTAS. Mine are already taken up by the more commonly used flying type functions. Lesser used commands like E to start I'm not going to take up a HOTAS button with since its used exactly once (or twice if I'm lucky)

[SharpeXB]

I enjoy manually started engines in games like DCS...

So do I. Because the plane has a clickable cockpit with switches labeled "Battery" and "Generator" instead of keyboard commands like Ctrl+B and Alt+G.

Nobody makes a flight sim these days with full systems and then puts them on a keyboard. It's just not done.

Keyboard planes have simplified systems

Full systems planes have mouse interactive cockpits.

 

Those are the two choices. No flight sim made today does what you guys are asking for.

It's taking nothing away from the current game.

 

Well it does actually because it would take development time away fro other things that are more worthwhile. I can think of many other features that are more interesting than changing the number of key presses to start the plane.

[dburne]

So do I. Because the plane has a clickable cockpit with switches labeled "Battery" and "Generator" instead of keyboard commands like Ctrl+B and Alt+G.

Nobody makes a flight sim these days with full systems and then puts them on a keyboard. It's just not done.

Keyboard planes have simplified systems

Full systems planes have mouse interactive cockpits.

 

Those are the two choices. No flight sim made today does what you guys are asking for.

Well it does actually because it would take development time away fro other things that are more worthwhile. I can think of many other features that are more interesting than changing the number of key presses to start the plane.

 

You are missing the point.

If they are available with key commands, they can be programmed on a HOTAS. Which is why I have spent the money for a Warthog.

Utilizing the software for my stick and throttle, I can program a myriad of key commands to buttons/levers/axis.

 

No more commands than we are talking about for BOS, ie what is already there animated, I have more than enough room to add those key commands  to my HOTAS.

 

I love having all those key commands available to me, and no I do not use the keyboard for most of them. That is why I have this HOTAS.

I could care less for a click-pit, but would love the ability to add those engine commands to my programming for my HOTAS.

[dburne]

Of course you can program key commands into a HOTAS.

 

Well there you have it. You can only program those key commands, if those commands exist.

Bring em on!'

[SharpeXB]

Well there you have it. You can only program those key commands, if those commands exist.

Bring em on!'

Well except even a HOTAS doesn't have enough buttons for all the startup commands plus the actual stick and throttle functions unless you're adding modes or modifiers to it. And many players don't have such elaborate controllers.

Once again, no other flight sim game today does this so why should BoS?

[dburne]

Well except even a HOTAS doesn't have enough buttons for all the startup commands plus the actual stick and throttle functions unless you're adding modes or modifiers to it. And many players don't have such elaborate controllers.

Once again, no other flight sim game today does this so why should BoS?

 

Sure it does, maybe yours and the way you use it does not.

Some could care less for having the same sequences that are already animated in BOS being able to optionally be done manually, some would probably really like it. Some are  in the latter, some  are in the former.

Really not difficult to understand...

Nothing wrong with those that would like to see that option expressing so.

 

And yes, I even have the startup up command programmed to my HOTAS.

Edited August 19, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

Sure it does, maybe yours and the way you use it does not.

 

There's 40 buttons, a slider wheel and a mini stick on the CH gear and all of those I have assigned to flight or weapon controls. So unless I'm going to assign modes or lose one to use as modifier, no there's none left over. E and G I'll leave to the keyboard since they're used exactly twice in a flight.

[dburne]

There's 40 buttons, a slider wheel and a mini stick on the CH gear and all of those I have assigned to flight or weapon controls. So unless I'm going to assign modes or lose one to use as modifier, no there's none left over. E and G I'll leave to the keyboard since they're used exactly twice in a flight.

 

Nothing wrong with that!

I have both E and G programmed as key commands on my HOTAS.

 

How one uses their HOTAS, should they have one, is strictly an individual taste. As long as one likes the way they use theirs, that is all that matters.

And I can tell you, if those same animated startup  sequences in BOS were available as key commands, I would program them into my HOTAS in a heartbeat and love it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

The most complex I could see making it in BoS would be like:

Probably just two or three keys

- Electrical start

- Fuel start

The player already controls mixture, prop, radiator etc so take those out of the animated sequence.

- Ignition

 

But that's just a more elaborate gamey startup although the player controls more of it.

[dburne]

But that's just a more elaborate gamey startup although the player controls more of it.

 

It's a start!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I find your absolutism and intransigence baffling to say the least. There is room for more than one opinion and desire to have this fairly simple (enjoyable for some/many) option. There are certainly other areas of this sim to hang your hat on or draw a line in the sand over.

Edited August 19, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Sokol1]

 

 

I agree with SharpeXB, I would absolutely HATE it if I had to bind 20 more keys on my keyboard just to start my engine, for each aircraft. 

DCS P-51 even with some "what if controls" (don't do nothing practical/necessary) don't require "20 more keys" for start the engine.

 

The thing is, the resources (programming time) wasted in this dumb robotic startup animations, if use do make a basic shortcuts

options for manual startup (like posted above) will make more players happy.

The ones that dont want "wast time", just press E and slam the throttle.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Sokol1