Ace says P-40 is not crap

August 17, 2015

My fellow pilots,

Being American I cant wait to see the P-40. I know that a lot of people expect it to be crap. However I do not believe this. Everything is relative in life. i.e. You feel better when you see a guy riding a bicycle to work while you drive your Toyota. Only to feel worse again when you see a guy pull up next to you in a Porsche 911. You can just imagine how pilots who transitioned from the Lagg, I-16 or better yet, the I-153 felt when they were given Warhawks. The Warhawk with all its creature comforts, radios and heat must have been a real welcome change to an open pit. Six 50 cals is nothing to laugh at either. But if you don't believe me, then ask this guy. I just found this yesterday and thought I would share with anyone who looks forward to the P-40.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Caldwell

I thought this was a good read.

Good day

August 17, 2015

Thanks = )

August 17, 2015

Well here is what VVS pilot Golodnikov had to say of the P-40.

Actually, the P-40 could engage all Messerschmitt's on equal terms, almost to the end of 1943. If you take into consideration all the characteristics of the P-40, then the Tomahawk was equal to the Bf 109F and the Kittyhawk was slightly better. Its speed and vertical and horizontal manoeuvre were good and fully competitive with enemy aircraft. Acceleration rate was a bit low, but when you got used to the engine, it was OK. We considered the P-40 a decent fighter plane.

N. G. Golodnikov

2nd Guards Fighter Regiment (GIAP)

Northern Aviation Fleet (VVS SF)

I also read somewhere that the VVS pilots use to blown the engines regularly on the P-40, because they use to run it at WEP for extended periods of time to compensate for the performance differences of the 109 etc.

I'm also hoping we get the P-39 and hurricane too at some point in the future. Looking forward to taking the P-40 for a spin though.

in the meantime, here we go!

August 17, 2015

Clive also said the MC.202 was one of the finest aircraft of the war.

August 17, 2015

I am not saying the P-40E was crap. From everything I've read, it seems to have been a sturdy, well armed fighter with pleasant handling, above average maneuverability (especially a strong roll) and good dive characteristics.

It's just that for a Europe 1942 scenario, it's severely underpowered for its weight, and here the numbers don't lie. The LaGG-3 was considered overweight and underpowered and suffered as a result, but the P-40E has almost exactly the same power output and is around 500kg heavier at combat load than the LaGG-3 S.29 we have in BoS. The result is an abysmal climb rate (At least on paper, the IL-2 climbs faster than the P-40E) and while the P-40E has a top speed that matches that of the lighter LaGG (propably due to a more clean design and better production quality) it's propably safe to assume that acceleration was poor with a P/W ratio of only .14hp/lb (the LaGG has .20hp/lb) This means, that a German pilot (Bf 109 or Fw 190, it doesn't matter) has significant advantage over a P-40E pilot in the three parameters that allows him to dictate the fight and turn an energy disadvantage into an advantage: Top speed, climb rate and acceleration.

In my book test data trumps anecdotes every time, and while there were some aces that no doubt used the P-40 to great effect, the same can be said for the LaGG-3 that fostered a handful of aces who were actually happy with the aircraft. It's always problematic to assess the qualities of an aircraft based on the memories of those pilots who did great in them. Aces almost always seem to recall their own aircraft being superior to their adversaries.

So no, the P-40E wasn't in and of itself a bad aircraft. It was just underpowered for its high weight and will have to rely on its opponents making mistakes or handling their aircraft poorly, just like it is with the LaGG-3 now.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Finkeren

August 17, 2015

P-40 . Can't wait.

August 17, 2015

IL2 Compare data...obviously that is just from 1946 and not real life but this is how it was modeled before

August 17, 2015

Well, I personally thought the modelling of the P-40 in IL2 1946 was rather rubbish (too high performing), but this seems not too far off. Keep in mind, it's comparing to a Bf 109F2, not F4, which has a genrally lower performance. The one thing I'd like to point out is, that IL2 compare clearly has the P-40 climbing much too high. In reality the service ceiling of the P-40E was well under 9000m, perhaps as little as 8,500m.

August 17, 2015

I simply love the addition of more diverse planes, because I know how much it means to individuals even if personally a plane may not click the buttons for you.

It enables people to express their character/passion through plane selection; and the idea that I could happen upon a flight of p40s being flown by people who love them is pretty cool.

I have my own favourites, but do like to mix it up a bit sometimes, it helps keep my multiple personalities satisfied ;-)

And I'm intrigued by this P40 bird, so looking forward to it's appearance.

Amen to that!

I just love the so called 'crap planes' that don't perform or handle quite as nicely as the more popular ones. That's part of why I look forward to the MiG-3 so much, because why it's propably gonna have its strongsides, it's definately not gonna be a world beater.

Even if it doesn't sound like it, I'm really looking forward to the P-40 as well. I just don't buy it when people say that it's gonna be terribly effective as a pure air superiority fighter.

August 17, 2015

Well, I personally thought the modelling of the P-40 in IL2 1946 was rather rubbish (too high performing), but this seems not too far off. Keep in mind, it's comparing to a Bf 109F2, not F4, which has a genrally lower performance. The one thing I'd like to point out is, that IL2 compare clearly has the P-40 climbing much too high. In reality the service ceiling of the P-40E was well under 9000m, perhaps as little as 8,500m.

Yep IL2 Compare is not RL data but I still have it and like to see how things matched up in the old Il2 at least. Regarding the high alt performance IL2 never really had a quality high altitude model as far as I know.

I'd imagine the P40 will be competitive below 3000m and out performed above that.

August 17, 2015

Which is largely how it was IRL. I am looking forward to the P-40. In 46 up until the last two patches it was always a much more stable gun platform than the P-51.

August 17, 2015

I certainly wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of those 6 .50 cals! I have to say it looks like its got a very comfy looking seat too!

August 17, 2015

I was about to mention how I liked its looks. But the more I think about it, I'm having trouble thinking of a WW2 bird I don't like the looks of.

Edited August 17, 2015 by avlSteve

August 17, 2015

I was about to mention how I liked its looks. But the more I think about it, I'm having trouble thinking of a WW2 bird I don't like the looks of.

That's right. She's a beauty and she was there historically. I always loved the P-40 as I love the Ju 87 and the F-4U. Some planes are iconic.

August 17, 2015

IL2 Compare data...obviously that is just from 1946 and not real life but this is how it was modeled before

Well, that's how it was modeled there. A few WWII online only sims have modeled the P40 as well, I haven't been bored enough to compare the data but they modeled most WWII aircraft better than the "before" Il-2 series.

August 17, 2015

Well, that's how it was modeled there. A few WWII online only sims have modeled the P40 as well, I haven't been bored enough to compare the data but they modeled most WWII aircraft better than the "before" Il-2 series.

Yep but from what I've read the P40 wasn't good against the 109 above 3-4k, if you read my post I did say it was 'in game data' and not RL data.

The difference is that in RL they had to fly at a certain altitude where as in game we can fly as high as we want to make the best of our advantage.

August 18, 2015

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222406/Dennis-Copping-Body-war-pilot-crash-landed-plane-Sahara-found.html

August 18, 2015

Clive Caldwell was a credit to the RAAF

August 18, 2015

Clive Caldwell was a credit to the RAAF

Didn't he admit to shooting pilots in their chutes?

August 18, 2015

The P-40 is a good plane, and like other planes of it's time period it's a dogfighter...a little slower than the zero but it was good for what it was for..dogfighting

The P-40F variant was even better with the Merlin engine

August 18, 2015

The P-40 is a good plane, and like other planes of it's time period it's a dogfighter...a little slower than the zero but it was good for what it was for..dogfighting

Aside from the fact that our P-40 isn't gonna be fighting Zeros but some far faster, more high-performance fighters, you actually have it reversed: The P-40E was a good deal faster than the A6M2s and M3s it faced in 1942-43. Whether is was a good dogfighter against the Zekes is certainly debatable. It has so much worse climb rate and powerloading, that it quickly found itself in a disadvantage against the Zekes in a classic dogfight. The few things it did have on the A6M was roll rate, dive speed and durability.

The P-40F variant was even better with the Merlin engine

Well, no. IIRC the British considered the P-40F so grossly overweight and underpowered, that the RAF largely refused to fly it, and it was mostly used by the USAAF in North Africa, despite being planned for use with the RAF in Western Europe. Edited August 18, 2015 by Finkeren

August 18, 2015

It has so much worse climb rate and powerloading, that it quickly found itself in a disadvantage against the Zekes in a classic dogfight.

...which is why it didn't fly against Zekes in a "classic dogfight."

August 18, 2015

...which is why it didn't fly against Zekes in a "classic dogfight."

Exactly. That was my point.

August 18, 2015

The P-40 is a good plane, and like other planes of it's time period it's a dogfighter...a little slower than the zero but it was good for what it was for..dogfighting

The P-40F variant was even better with the Merlin engine

I'm not sure if any of the 'planes in the P40's time period were built for "dogfighting." They were built for bomber interception. With the exception of the Zero - that was built for bomber escort.

August 19, 2015

Didn't he admit to shooting pilots in their chutes?

I can't find anything suggesting that he did. The closest he did to that was shooting any enemy target he saw, such as lorries, when he was returning to base, which earned him the nickname 'killer', which he despised.

August 19, 2015

I can't find anything suggesting that he did. The closest he did to that was shooting any enemy target he saw, such as lorries, when he was returning to base, which earned him the nickname 'killer', which he despised.

There is a suggestion from biographer, Kristin Alexander that after seeing his wingman shot and killed while descending in a parachute his attitude to harden significantly. Journalists popularised Caldwell's nickname of "Killer”. One apparent reason for the nickname was that he started shooting enemy pilots after they parachuted out of aircraft.
Caldwell wrote in a notebook "it's your life or theirs. This is war."

War is hell as they say.

August 19, 2015

I can't find anything suggesting that he did. The closest he did to that was shooting any enemy target he saw, such as lorries, when he was returning to base, which earned him the nickname 'killer', which he despised.

There are numerous hits if you search: "Clive Caldwell shot parachuted". His name is mentioned in realationship to this practice. But, is this the truth. Fact is a small number of pilots from both sides do this outrageous behavior

August 19, 2015

I have always found something very "manly" and aggressive in the P-40, whatever marks.

It was such a *beastly machine* to look at. I can't wait to have it in BOM.
Probably it was not a great fighter all around, especially in climbs, but its firepower will be terrifying... (!)

August 19, 2015

There is a suggestion from biographer, Kristin Alexander that after seeing his wingman shot and killed while descending in a parachute his attitude to harden significantly. Journalists popularised Caldwell's nickname of "Killer”. One apparent reason for the nickname was that he started shooting enemy pilots after they parachuted out of aircraft.

Caldwell wrote in a notebook "it's your life or theirs. This is war."

War is hell as they say.

Yes, he had a well deserved reputation as a chute shooter; and as one might expect, he received an appropriate nickname. Whether he counted himself lucky that Werner Schroer wasn't also a chute shooter when he shot him out of the sky in 1941, isn't known.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Wulf

August 19, 2015

The thread is about the P-40. It is not about 'chute-shooting.

August 21, 2015

Lets Stay Positive.

P-40E This is what we are getting. Lend Lease aircraft were the absolute best in 42. Look at the Russian contemporaries and you will agree. Sure, I-16 is better in a tuning duel, if you stupid enough to do this in a 109. Yak is lighter but lightly armed. Lagg is not a nice aircraft when compared to P-40. AMC Gremlin vs Cadillac. Ok, maybe the P-40 was no Cadillac but it was a nice aircraft. Heat, nice instruments armament and sturdy metal construction. I for one am looking forward to it.

Anyone know what is next for BOM?

August 21, 2015

September - P-40 E -1
October - Bf 109 E-7
November - Bf 110 E-2

Good times ahead! 10 sleeps till September!

Edited August 21, 2015 by DendroAspis

August 21, 2015

September - P-40 E -1

October - Bf 109 E-7

November - Bf 110 E-2

Good times ahead! 10 sleeps till September!

Don't forget that the summer map is also scheduled for release in September

Oh! And right at the end of that list lies a juicy MiG-3 waiting

August 21, 2015

There is a suggestion from biographer, Kristin Alexander that after seeing his wingman shot and killed while descending in a parachute his attitude to harden significantly. Journalists popularised Caldwell's nickname of "Killer”. One apparent reason for the nickname was that he started shooting enemy pilots after they parachuted out of aircraft.

Caldwell wrote in a notebook "it's your life or theirs. This is war."

War is hell as they say.

The press gave him that nickname because they thought it sounded dashing. Caldwell hated it. If Caldwell had a nickname outside of that it would have to be booze related, his prowess at the bar is legendary.

It's all in his biography, I'd quote a reference but I gave my copy to a mate after I finished it so I don't have it on hand. There's no mention of shooting people in parachutes to my recollection beyond the usual "We never did it" claim that both sides trip over themselves to assure us of. Which is of course true if you take that to mean "We never did it on principle". It would be naive in the extreme to assume that it never happened and ignorant to accuse only one side of doing it.

(Of course people sometimes did shoot defenseless guys in their chutes, war is a dirty and emotional business. It's none of our business and it's not worth beating the subject to death over and over again. Who are we to judge?)

August 21, 2015

Lets Stay Positive.

P-40E This is what we are getting. Lend Lease aircraft were the absolute best in 42. Look at the Russian contemporaries and you will agree. Sure, I-16 is better in a tuning duel, if you stupid enough to do this in a 109. Yak is lighter but lightly armed. Lagg is not a nice aircraft when compared to P-40. AMC Gremlin vs Cadillac. Ok, maybe the P-40 was no Cadillac but it was a nice aircraft. Heat, nice instruments armament and sturdy metal construction. I for one am looking forward to it.

Anyone know what is next for BOM?

Russian pilot really appreciated the cockpits, the clear canopies and above all the radio equipment of lend-lease aircrafts. Russian fighter of the era were mostly fitted with receivers only, with the squad leader having a receiver and transmitter. All advantages that don't appear in the game of course as cockpit ergonomics don't matter us, we always have clear canopies and perfect radio transmissions with TS. For real life pilots all these advantages could mean the difference between life and death.

Edited August 21, 2015 by SYN_Ricky

August 21, 2015

Yes the P-40 will be inferior to the 109 but it's better looking so at least you die in style . I was hoping to see a P39 aswell, that needs to be a thing.

August 21, 2015

There is a suggestion from biographer, Kristin Alexander that after seeing his wingman shot and killed while descending in a parachute his attitude to harden significantly. Journalists popularised Caldwell's nickname of "Killer”. One apparent reason for the nickname was that he started shooting enemy pilots after they parachuted out of aircraft.

Caldwell wrote in a notebook "it's your life or theirs. This is war."

War is hell as they say.

There are numerous hits if you search: "Clive Caldwell shot parachuted". His name is mentioned in realationship to this practice. But, is this the truth. Fact is a small number of pilots from both sides do this outrageous behavior

Yes, he had a well deserved reputation as a chute shooter; and as one might expect, he received an appropriate nickname. Whether he counted himself lucky that Werner Schroer wasn't also a chute shooter when he shot him out of the sky in 1941, isn't known.

Well, it seems like what you're saying may be the case. Granted, it seems that he only killed men in their parachutes if they were over their own territory, but I still find his behaviour questionable at best.

Then again, I have to wonder, what would I have done in those circumstances? I hope I never find out.

EDIT: Anyway, as FlatSpinMan says, let's get back on topic

Edited August 21, 2015 by Cybermat47

August 21, 2015

...which is why it didn't fly against Zekes in a "classic dogfight."

Out of curiosity only Luke, what Japanese aircraft did the P-40 go up against mainly in China?

Chief

August 21, 2015

Regardless of it's various performance deficiencies when measured against certain aircraft, I'm sure it's going to be a whole lot of fun to fly.

August 21, 2015

Regardless of it's various performance deficiencies when measured against certain aircraft, I'm sure it's going to be a whole lot of fun to fly.

Exactly what I've been thinking. The Warhawk just looks great

Ace says P-40 is not crap

Recommended Posts

Maico

Reversal

6./ZG26_Custard

Feathered_IV

Finkeren

Bars-

6./ZG26_Emil

Finkeren

Finkeren

6./ZG26_Emil

Bearcat

6./ZG26_Custard

avlSteve

indiaciki

FuriousMeow

6./ZG26_Emil

Georgio

Cybermat47

6./ZG26_Emil

Kuhnada

Finkeren

LukeFF

Finkeren

DD_Arthur

Cybermat47

6./ZG26_Custard

StG2_Juuti

Falco_Peregrinus

Wulf

FlatSpinMan

Maico

=EXPEND=Dendro

Finkeren

Ace_Pilto

SYN_Ricky

Scarecrow

Cybermat47

-NW-ChiefRedCloud

6./ZG26_Custard

Cybermat47

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Browse All

Activity