Take Note : Boom 'n Zoom is not allowed... you have to dogfight!

August 14, 2015

Guys....

Don't make me bring out the GIF of the two babies fighting over a pacifier.

August 14, 2015

Result ? We managed to kill 3 of them, i got shot down (crashed after my left aileron got jammed), and my friend has been able to leave the fight after i die.

Yes I see. You got shot down and died.

August 14, 2015

Ok, I have a short question.

Whenever i load up a Quick mission with a g-2 or f-4 as opponent, on the deck, face to face, same fuel loadout and me in a Yak-1 I find it VERY hard if not almost impossible to catch a 109 in a turnfight without the use of flaps. How do I make use of those ufo qualities? What am i doing wrong if sustained turnrate should be so much better? I'm keeping the plane at corner speed (roughly over 300) and the slip indicator ball in the middle.

EDIT: If the 109 enters the vertical plane I'm lost.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Jordan

August 14, 2015

Guys....

Don't make me bring out the GIF of the two babies fighting over a pacifier.

August 14, 2015

Ok, I have a short question.

Whenever i load up a Quick mission with a g-2 or f-4 as opponent, on the deck, face to face, same fuel loadout and me in a Yak-1 I find it VERY hard if not almost impossible to catch a 109 in a turnfight without the use of flaps. How do I make use of those ufo qualities? What am i doing wrong if sustained turnrate should be so much better? I'm keeping the plane at corner speed (roughly over 300) and the slip indicator ball in the middle.

You b***h and whine all over the forums about it.

That's certainly how a select few Luftwaffe pilots do it...

Guys....

Don't make me bring out the GIF of the two babies fighting over a pacifier.

Yes you do, and you have to watch it all the way through

Edited August 14, 2015 by Finkeren

August 14, 2015

Ok, I have a short question.

Whenever i load up a Quick mission with a g-2 or f-4 as opponent, on the deck, face to face, same fuel loadout and me in a Yak-1 I find it VERY hard if not almost impossible to catch a 109 in a turnfight without the use of flaps. How do I make use of those ufo qualities? What am i doing wrong if sustained turnrate should be so much better? I'm keeping the plane at corner speed (roughly over 300) and the slip indicator ball in the middle.

I suspect its the flaps that are the questionable bit and the "UFO qualities". I find the turn rate and radius between the Yak and 109 is fairly similar most of the time. The trick with the Yak is to really ride the edge of that stall for a snapshot at the last minute. It will do it but you need to have intense coordination to prevent the stall from full developing. With the 109 its easy because the leading edge slats give you so much more leeway before the stall actually fully develops.

Still.. it shouldn't be too hard to out turn a 109 at low alt. Keep your speed up around 300 as you've been doing but fly more aggressively.

August 14, 2015

One of the things I love to do is take a turn fighter up at say 5 to 8 thousand feet and deal with a 109 diving on me.

It takes practice to watch when the 109 dives on you and then dive yourself at the 'right time'. Then as both of us are in a dive but I am slower I can turn my plane and the enemy will miss me. And if I do it right I turn again and get a shot at the 109. I am not that good of a fighter pilot but I have had lots of fun just training on this. Even if there are lots of people in a server I can usually get a match like this between just me and one 109. If another comes along it is time to boggy to same place safer.

Yes, pilots like you get very apparent over years of flying. My favorite targets too.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Mac_Messer

August 14, 2015

I am disappointed now.

How is it possible that so many people think Bf-109 have no chance at low alt ?

Do you even know how it looks like to fight on german side as a ground pounder/jabo ? Well, it's just plain loneliness. Flying solo, bombing solo, straffing solo... Looking at the number of players: same on both teams.

Often, one fighter come to attack me. Oh no ! What should I do ? I have a Fw-190, pure B&Z plane, of course !

Well, just have to fight, roll, trying to manoeuvre to stay out of sight, and using the good climb rate and speed of the 190 to take the advantage.

Yep, it's definitely not easy if you just turnfight on a horizontal plan. Why don't try something else then ? Is the Bf-109 a bad climber ? Doesn't it have some advantages over russian fighters at low alt ? Is B&Z impossible at low alt ?

The roll rates of LaGG-3/La-5 are exaggerated, the stalling speed of Yak-1 with flaps is too low... But even still, are they faster than you ? Are they better climber than you ? Is your plane devoid of ailerons ?

Maybe if average german player asks himself those questions, he might realize that being below 1000m is not a death sentence.

I may seem pissed right now (because I am), mainly because when I fly on the russian side, there is plenty of Il-2s, fighter's escort, fighter-bombers. And yes, they are winning the round, because they are destroying the objectives, while on the german team, there is one or two ground pounders who are trying to levelling the odds, because half of the team is at high alt to safely make kills.

I never saw, NEVER, a Bf-109 doing jabo. Why can we put bombs on them ? It does not help to fight fighters, is that it ?

Try to remember what's the goal of military aviation. Having air superiority is one thing, using it to help the ground forces is another one. Bro tip: the ground forces are on the ground

You do not know how Jabo is done in virtual LW.

And yes, LW do objectives as they are. They go bomb in quick and out or go in quick and shoot the IL2s. When the tactic and teamwork is performed correctly, the Yaks are of minor nuisance.

You are a classic case of a VVS pilot going mad because nobody wants to hand himself to you on a silver platter.

The problem is Marseille's died, Hartmann survived the war with a score that will never be matched. It is not about being a wannabe it is about flying an aircraft to it's best advantage. I don't understand why some people don't get this?

You know, it is more "romantic" this way.

I've read through the entirety of Marseille's book. Never did he once ask for help from a wingman. If you want to call a pilot "the best" you must have something to back it up besides a kill count. Wilt Chamberlain is barely ever considered "the best" basketball player because he has scored the most points....a layman's term metaphor but relevant.

Not everyone cares about being the best. Some people, besides doing their duty, are also dedicated to surviving the war. My vote goes to the second type.

August 14, 2015

Do you guys want to know a secret?

Come closer, let me whisper it...

Sometimes I boom and zoom in the Yak

So if you don't like being boom and zoomed, get your lazy arse up out of the mud!

Edited August 14, 2015 by JimmyBlonde

August 14, 2015

Damaged aircraft are often left alone once out of the fight, ( and yet often 'stolen' by someone on the deck as they limp home). Leaving your wingman to go chase a running, damaged target for thekill is again not the way we fly. These are examples of how we are not simply looking to notch up (easy) kill after kill.

We also don't fly at 10k, high yes of course, but we don't take off and think, "ooo quick, let's get to 10k!" Such accusations just make the rest of the arguments in the post seem hollow.

What we are, are keen 'simmers', we love the planes, the history etc. We want a thriving community for BoS where people can enjoy quality, online interaction in this sim. Throwing mud at each other is not going to change the opinions of each other, nor build a welcoming community to enable the sim to grow. And is particularly destructive when there is misunderstanding/assumptions made as to what people are doing.

I'll see you all online at some point, I'm pretty easy to shoot down so enjoy it, and you never know, if you're unlucky I might just b n z you :-P

I flew aside your squad many times in online wars. I`ve always remembered your players for teamwork spirit, tactics and wilingness to do the dirty work. But for people to see that, they`d need to see you perform in a coop environment.

August 14, 2015

Hairy, I'm not going to resort to insulting you, but if you honestly believe that you can beat a pilot of then same skill level in a Yak and you in a 109 in an "on the deck" turn fest I wish you well.

He will obviously massacre all you coward 109ers when he gets the Mig. All he`s waiting for to show his skill.

August 14, 2015

Yes I see. You got shot down and died.

I wonder what you would have said if none of us had been shot down.

"these Yak's were bad olololz" ?

You're from those persons that accuse the plane rather than reflect about themselves and their non-existent ACM clue.

Stay at the stratosphere, continue to call the 109s and 190s "BnZ planes" if you find that funny.

I'm done with you.

He will obviously massacre all you coward 109ers when he gets the Mig. All he`s waiting for to show his skill.

Nope, i'll not buy BoM with BoS being in this current state.

August 14, 2015

If they whine, it means you're doing it well

I had the same in RoF. Plenty of self-made bedroom Richthofens were outraged when I didn't stop to turnfight their Dreidecker with my SE5a. I always took it as a compliment.

With the SE5a's original glass radiator, BnZing was tougher to do. Those TnBers had no idea how tough it was for planes like the SE5a in those early days.

August 14, 2015

Hey Ze_Hairy, have you ever read this book by chance? (I'm not being sarcastic or disrespectful, I'm just curious what you think about it and if you found it helpful if you read it. I think it's pretty cool book.)

Its called Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L Shaw.

There is a section where it teaches ACMs "basics" (I can't find a better word for it) between a high T/W ratio fighters (which I assume aren't particularly good "turners") and a good angles fighter.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xenunjeon88

August 14, 2015

You do not know how Jabo is done in virtual LW.

- Then please, explain to me.

And yes, LW do objectives as they are. They go bomb in quick and out or go in quick and shoot the IL2s. When the tactic and teamwork is performed correctly, the Yaks are of minor nuisance.

- Russian fighters are of a minor nuisance in a german fighter, except with numerical superiority. (or unless you just turnfight with them, of course)

You are a classic case of a VVS pilot going mad because nobody wants to hand himself to you on a silver platter.

- You didn't read my post, right ? It seems it was not understandable enough... I fly on BOTH sides. I'm not complaining about some players being predictable by doing basically the same move, I'm complaining about the lack of german players trying to complete the objectives. (except yesterday's round I played with Ze_Hairy)

August 14, 2015

You're from those persons that accuse the plane rather than reflect about themselves and their non-existent ACM clue. Stay at the stratosphere, continue to call the 109s and 190s "BnZ planes" if you find that funny.

Huh??

August 14, 2015

Lets not let things get personal guys..

August 14, 2015

I'm done with you.

Praise the lord!

August 14, 2015

If you take time to try out all aircraft in QMB against each other, you'll find there isn't really anything uber and it'll make it much easier to exploit the strengths of the plane you "fly" against the strengths and weaknesses of the plane "flying" against you.

For example, the uber Yak.. It takes the Yak about 43 seconds to accelerate from 330km/h to 500km/h at 400meters with all rads closed. It takes the 109F4 at 1.3ATA to do the same in about 25 seconds. The 109F4 will also roll faster to the left than the Yak at 500km/h, and it's initial roll is quicker than the Yak. On top of that, the ability to remain fast and climb away from the Yak pretty much leaves the Yak's uber UFO self in the dust. You don't even have to run away for that long, just separate the distances, come back in a climbing turn, remain out of gun range, force them to either stall out or remain flying along and dive down on them. From there you can dictate the fight.

August 14, 2015

I was hoping to have some tracks against human players, but the past two weeks haven't been kind for MP time and the very limited MP time I've had there have only been a couple people on servers.

The link below has the following tracks:

2 Yak -1 - 84% fuel vs 2 AI Ace 109G2s 100% fuel with the armored cockpit glass face to face at 1000meters with 2000meters separation. Second track has Yak take damage and only because AI isn't so good on the deck did it end in victory for the Yak.

1 track of 1 109G2 with armored glass headrest - 100% fuel vs 2 AI Ace Yak-1 with 75% fuel face to face at 1000meters with 2000meters separation.

The mistakes the AI controlled 109 make are the slow low alt turns, and it's lack of aggression at low alt. Otherwise it makes great use of the acceleration, speed and climbing capabilities of the 109 to remain above the Yak or just out of reach and keeping it low. The AI controlled Yak's love to pop the flaps like some human controlled Yaks, especially in the vertical and it yields no great advantage. The 109 also handily outclimbs the Yak when starting co-alt.

Tracks download here

The only point to the tracks, since it's only against ace AI, is to show how easily the 109 can dictate a fight and how drastically different it is from either side. The 109 is in total control when used properly.

August 14, 2015

Updated download link for tracks

August 14, 2015

[...] On top of that, the ability to remain fast and climb away from the Yak pretty much leaves the Yak's uber UFO self in the dust. You don't even have to run away for that long, just separate the distances, come back in a climbing turn, remain out of gun range, force them to either stall out or remain flying along and dive down on them. From there you can dictate the fight.

True and well explained.

Nowadays when I`m playing red side to even teams mostly I see a lot of "wannabie experten" flying poor version of B`n`Z.

Its just pathetic.

No skills.

Poor deflection shooting.

The only thing which they do well is climbing...

Boring, cheap, pitfull.

And every "random" can do that.

The game is evolving, soon there will be enough planes to balance the planesets on servers.

MiG-3..., Emil vs Rata and so on...

And ...

August 14, 2015

what do you expect, 14 years ago when i was trainer in ient warbirds there was a lot of interest in learning air combat, today not so much.

i even get comments when showing how to energy fight that i use the plane wrong, since its a B+Z plane.

but let them have their illusion, i know they [Edited], thats enough.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Bearcat
Please refrain from name calling.

August 14, 2015

Lets not let things get personal guys..

No, rather let's leave it open when we all know that is the only direction that this thread is going to continue going in... Just like when I reported it yesterday...

August 14, 2015

Just curious...who would use flaps in high speed aerial combat ? What about never exceed speeds? It was mentioned above and it sounds ridiculous

August 14, 2015

Just curious...who would use flaps in high speed aerial combat ? What about never exceed speeds? It was mentioned above and it sounds ridiculous

It is ridiculous, and that's the big thing.. The Yak's flaps that some experten complain about, they blow back above 230km/h so they are ineffective in the flight envelope the 109 is most effective in.

Edited August 14, 2015 by FuriousMeow

August 14, 2015

No, rather let's leave it open when we all know that is the only direction that this thread is going to continue going in... Just like when I reported it yesterday...

Yes .. let's... This thread does not have to go in that direction. As I have often said.. we promote discussion here.. even if it is critical.. or potentially somewhat contentious.. as long as it is not personal.. As long as everyone keeps it from getting too personal this thread will stay open. If you do not want to engage in discussion then just don't. It's really that simple.

If you take time to try out all aircraft in QMB against each other, you'll find there isn't really anything uber and it'll make it much easier to exploit the strengths of the plane you "fly" against the strengths and weaknesses of the plane "flying" against you.

For example, the uber Yak.. It takes the Yak about 43 seconds to accelerate from 330km/h to 500km/h at 400meters with all rads closed. It takes the 109F4 at 1.3ATA to do the same in about 25 seconds. The 109F4 will also roll faster to the left than the Yak at 500km/h, and it's initial roll is quicker than the Yak. On top of that, the ability to remain fast and climb away from the Yak pretty much leaves the Yak's uber UFO self in the dust. You don't even have to run away for that long, just separate the distances, come back in a climbing turn, remain out of gun range, force them to either stall out or remain flying along and dive down on them. From there you can dictate the fight.

Which is textbook B&Z ... That sitting at 6k waiting for someone to fly 4k below you so you can pounce.. or sitting over an airbase waiting for players to get to 2k.. so you can pounce is not textbook B&Z ... and if you are a poor shot it is even less... that is just being a poor sport and no different from camping out near spawn points picking off folks as they spawn in..

August 14, 2015

After shooting this bloke down a while ago he informed me that I was flying the 190 "all wrong". Well maybe....

Anyway, if some people want to fly at 7 km, as they always have in flight sims, just leave them to it I say. At least they're contributing something albeit some sort of a deterrent. The guys that irritate me are the ones who appear to perpetually orbit their own bases.

I was on WOL last evening. At the time, there were about 15 guys each side. I swear to god, 10 of the Axis flyers were orbiting one airfield presumably waiting to mob the odd Soviet flyer silly enough or bored enough to have a go. Meanwhile, the Soviets where kicking the living crap out of the targets on our side of the fence. Wow ...

August 15, 2015

Which is textbook B&Z ... That sitting at 6k waiting doe someone to fly 4k below you so you can pounce.. or sitting over an airbase waiting for players to get to 2k.. so you can pounce is not textbook B&Z ... and if you are a poor shot it is even less... that is just being a poor sport and no different from camping out near spawn points picking off folks as they spawn in..

You need to watch my track then, you missed on every sentence.

I do that online against human players and its not what you said in any manner.

Not to mention I never said anything about an alt advantage so I'm not sure where anything you said applies at all to what I said.

Edited August 15, 2015 by FuriousMeow

August 15, 2015

I may be misunderstanding you, (perhaps read the phrasing wrong, I've quoted it as I've understood it) but is it being a poor sport to fly over a target as defensive cover, at say 5K, looking for ground attack aircraft flying in (at 1k) and then pounce on them? Is there a 'sporting' altitude that I should fly at in such circumstances? Is this really as bad as vulching?

You are misunderstanding me.. Flying over a target as defensive cover is one thing.. but just hanging out over a base.. where there is no greater mission objective, for the sole purpose of "B&Z" attacking a enemy fighter.. are two different things..

You need to watch my track then, you missed on every sentence.

I do that online against human players and its not what you said in any manner.

Not to mention I never said anything about an alt advantage so I'm not sure where anything you said applies at all to what I said.

No I didn't..

For example, the uber Yak.. It takes the Yak about 43 seconds to accelerate from 330km/h to 500km/h at 400meters with all rads closed. It takes the 109F4 at 1.3ATA to do the same in about 25 seconds. The 109F4 will also roll faster to the left than the Yak at 500km/h, and it's initial roll is quicker than the Yak. On top of that, the ability to remain fast and climb away from the Yak pretty much leaves the Yak's uber UFO self in the dust. You don't even have to run away for that long, just separate the distances, come back in a climbing turn, remain out of gun range, force them to either stall out or remain flying along and dive down on them. From there you can dictate the fight.

This is textbook B&Z (a good thing) in the context of ACM.. not the camping out that draws the most angst when B&Z tactics are concerned and what causes some servers to make "no B& Z" a rule on a given server..

We are in agreement here... on both counts.

August 15, 2015

For sure.. and you can bet that IRL.. these pilots did not want to risk their lives hanging out over bases for the sake of getting kills.. Within the confines of a mission yeah for sure you had those glory seekers.. and a lot of them never made it home... but for the most part I have found that on all sides.. axis and allied.. winners and losers.. for the most part all these guys just wanted to get home to their loved ones.. which brings to the forefront the OP ... and they all mourned their fallen comrades and avoided flying to their opponent's strengths/their own weaknesses as a matter of life and death.

August 15, 2015

these pilots also didnt want to risk their lives hanging down low just to participate in long turning fight contests nor did they had magic flaps which they could use forever and without limitations

For sure.. and you can bet that IRL.. these pilots did not want to risk their lives hanging out over bases for the sake of getting kills.. Within the confines of a mission yeah for sure you had those glory seekers.. and a lot of them never made it home... but for the most part I have found that on all sides.. axis and allied.. winners and losers.. for the most part all these guys just wanted to get home to their loved ones.. which brings to the forefront the OP ... and they all mourned their fallen comrades and avoided flying to their opponent's strengths/their own weaknesses as a matter of life and death.

August 15, 2015

A few people on the thread (well probably two) seemed to misunderstand my point about flying each aircraft to its best advantage and think I am just some "Boom and Zoom" junkie without a clue.

It will be very interesting to see how the Mig-3 will be flown? Considering that it was designed for high-altitude combat, will we see hordes of VVS Migs raining death and destruction on the high flying 109's?

Or will they be flying through those wonderful dust clouds that we have seen on the new summer map pictures?

August 15, 2015

No I didn't..

You are correct, I misread. I thought the rest of the stuff about being high alt and camping, etc was what I was saying to do and.. well doesn't matter. I was wrong in my response and I apologize.

August 15, 2015

A few people on the thread (well probably two) seemed to misunderstand my point about flying each aircraft to its best advantage and think I am just some "Boom and Zoom" junkie without a clue.

Do you know why it's easy for people like Lemsko or myself to "detect" these people ? Because there's a place where they ("BnZ planes" sect) reproduce very quickly, like mushrooms... War Thunder forum !

Actually, you gave yourself this reputation yourself, by saying what you have said in this thread and others (ololz turnfight with 109 ?!).

No need to be afraid, having no clue in ACM is not a shame, it's something natural and especially among those folks who think they are flying a "BnZ plane".

"these pilots also didnt want to risk their lives hanging down low just to participate in long turning fight contests nor did they had magic flaps which they could use forever and without limitations"

And again, dogfight = turnfight... the only way to fight.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Ze_Hairy

August 15, 2015

I personally don't like is the term BnZ when really folks should use the term energy fighting. BnZ is one part of that, just like scissors are, or a Chandelle, or a Lufberry circle, yo-yos or whatever.

The misuse of terminology seems to me to be where the arguments at, and if you assume that by using the term BnZ as meaning that's all someone knows, well...

von Tom

August 15, 2015

The misuse of terminology seems to me to be where the arguments at, and if you assume that by using the term BnZ as meaning that's all someone knows, well...

Is it me that reduced the vision of any fight at low altitude to a ridiculous turnfight, several time ?

August 15, 2015

Hairy, I'm really sorry, I either don't understand you, or you're just always on the wind up. You've now drawn assumptions that Custard or maybe any of us who have entered discussion in opposition to your points is now some part of the Warthunder community and that this gives less vlaue to comments?

So you misunderstood me.

And if you really mean that 'having no clue in ACM is not a shame' then by the same logic surely you can agree that 'taunting' someone of their 'supposed' lack of skill is not correct behaviour,...or should they be ashamed and therfore worthy of taunting? If you think this is right then pity any newcomers who don't have your immense skill.

A lot of newcomers ask me for help in PM, especially for the Fw 190 since it's a high stall speed/wing loaded plane that needs a slightly different way to be flown in furballs, as Lemsko said, focusing position rather than angle.

Here, in this thread we have guys who have even quoted Hartmann to justify their way to fly german planes as the "right way, the real, as they should be flown" and who, at every post, are discrediting themselves by saying that "if you don't BnZ it means you're turnfighting russians" so they show they have no clue in ACM, then why they don't even assume it (hello Custard), so we can close the discussion ?

I can't believe I'm wasting time on this, so I'm going to leave you to your 'hating' and 'accusations', try and chill out maybe, if you let people get to you so much at their apparent inferiority to you you'll go mad, plus be careful, there's always someone better than you to pull you down to size.

I seriously wonder who's wasting his time here.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Ze_Hairy

August 15, 2015

Is it me that reduced the vision of any fight at low altitude to a ridiculous turnfight, several time ?

There's this big round hard thing at low altitude called "The Ground" that prevents any vertical maneuvers below a certain limit. You've heard of it right? In BoS it's a white shiny thing with trees and buildings sticking out of it.

August 15, 2015

There's this big round hard thing at low altitude called "The Ground" that prevents any vertical maneuvers below a certain limit. You've heard of it right? In BoS it's a white shiny thing with trees and buildings sticking out of it.

Vertical maneuvering is something that is not limited to one direction and ESPECIALLY when you're flying a plane that climbs better than your opponents, you've heard of it, right ?

(seriously ?!)

Take Note : Boom 'n Zoom is not allowed... you have to dogfight!

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