Take Note : Boom 'n Zoom is not allowed... you have to dogfight!

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I have twice had Reds have a verbal go at me when they get on my tail and I run. I do this because :

 

a.) I am not good at turnfighting

b) I am not (and my 109 is not) comfortable at turnfighting under the clouds and on the deck

c) I don't like having 20 yaks on my ass

d) I get tired of having to fly back to the objectives all night and get shot down.

 

I mean come on.... I have only been in flight sims at a serious level for around 3 years now and only now am I able to get 2-3 regular kills every time I fly but I still die a lot and thats especially when I try and turn with a skilled opponent. But whats really annoying is that red players are starting to voice their dislike because we won't turn and dogfight them?? WTF.... I must now hand myself on a silver plate and take a wrestler on at wrestling down and dirty at his own game when I am a stand-up boxer. Thats just stupid.

 

I know I should be ignoring taunts like that but it seems to be a growing trend that red pilots are frustrated with the high altitude tactics of the LW pilots. As far as I am concerned I treat this game like a real life situation..... stay alive at all costs. Don't engage unless you have a completely superior advantage.

 

Solution : LW needs captured yaks to also be able to furball on the deck?

[JtD]

I usually reply "I won't run if you don't turn." and then ignore the whiners.

[Feathered_IV]

As I understood it, Boom and Zoom actually means to dive in order to get sufficient speed to break the sound barrier before pulling up to regain height.  While Turn and Burn means to reverse one's direction in a modern jet and engage afterburner.   Its always bothered me that people misuse the phrases to describe going pew-pew and burning rubber.

[Finkeren]

You fly the way you see fit.

 

The only time you have to take note of complaints is if they come from your own team mates, who tell you that you need to contribute to the mission.

[Reflected]

If they whine, it means you're doing it well 

 

I had the same in RoF. Plenty of self-made bedroom Richthofens were outraged when I didn't stop to turnfight their Dreidecker with my SE5a. I always took it as a compliment.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

DendroAspis, I'm completely with you on this one and all you are doing is flying the 109 to it's best advantage. I really hope that when the Mig-3 is out we can all fly a bit higher than 10 feet off the ground and get away from this ridiculous furball nonsense.

[Dakpilot]

But the most numerically produced aircraft in the history of the world were getting on with winning the war..... all flying at 10 feet  

 

(humour..but sort of true)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Maico]

I like this post.  "If they are whining then you are doing it right"  Stick to your plan.  A TnB guy will always try to lure you into a fight you cant win.  That's what we all want to do.  Who does not smile when they see that I-16 stall behind them? 

Keep knocking them down!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

But the most numerically produced aircraft in the history of the world were getting on with winning the war..... all flying at 10 feet (humour..but sort of true) Cheers Dakpilot

 

If I was flying the IL2 I would probably be at 10 feet too, trying to avoid all those pesky BnZ lot!
 

Of course, in truth the VVS tactics forced the hand of the LW and dragged them lower and removed the advantage that they would of had at higher altitudes.

Regardless of that, I would still like to be higher in a 109 and engaging them to that aircrafts advantage than flailing about in a turn fest with a Yak.

[SR-F_Winger]

As others said. If you get a comment youre doing it right.

Biggest compliment is if you get accused to be cheating:)

[Finkeren]

I had the same in RoF. Plenty of self-made bedroom Richthofens were outraged when I didn't stop to turnfight their Dreidecker with my SE5a. I always took it as a compliment.

Those were good times indeed. When I finally mastered the 180hp SPAD7, I could frustrate the poor Fokkers to no end Only the occasional D-VIIF was a problem.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I also get frustrated because I want to turn and often do only to get absolutely hammered. The 109 is so unforgiving if you get it wrong whereas the yaks are superb handling tight situations.

 

I know my dogfighting skills are not great in the 109.... I went up against a few other good players in 109s in normal server duels and got my ass handed to me even when I had the advantage. I am getting better though. ....I think..

 

Maybe this sim is spot on. The vvs helped win the ground war with the close air support whilst the LW watched helplessly from above.

[SR-F_Winger]

I also get frustrated because I want to turn and often do only to get absolutely hammered. The 109 is so unforgiving if you get it wrong whereas the yaks are superb handling tight situations.

 

I know my dogfighting skills are not great in the 109.... I went up against a few other good players in 109s in normal server duels and got my ass handed to me even when I had the advantage. I am getting better though. ....I think..

 

Maybe this sim is spot on. The vvs helped win the ground war with the close air support whilst the LW watched helplessly from above.

I tried the 109 after quite some time in my 190. Man was this things elevator always as uneffective? I can only get it to be effective by excessively using the adj stabilizer. And this one results in inability to push the nose down if you have a little speed:) Constantly need to readjust in order to be somewhat elevatoreffective.

And the rollrate.... Man this thing handles like a brick compared to the 190! Sure it turns tighter but whom does this help if the UFOs still does turn inside you no matter the speed?

Those were good times indeed. When I finally mastered the 180hp SPAD7, I could frustrate the poor Fokkers to no end Only the occasional D-VIIF was a problem.

The DR1s prop hang ability annoyed many of you i remember. And now you know how much this annoys us LWers when we try to BnZ you YAKers:)

Edited August 13, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[mb339pan]

If they whine, it means you're doing it well 

 

I had the same in RoF. Plenty of self-made bedroom Richthofens were outraged when I didn't stop to turnfight their Dreidecker with my SE5a. I always took it as a compliment.

 

RoF: no run spad

 

BoS: no turn yak

 

:lol:

[TP_Jacko]

but is there any chance we could try to populate a different server? Those of us seeking coordinated flying, and who don't get annoyed at the enemy trying to stay alive?

 

I don't mean getting in the way of the co-ops at all, they are gold! Just perhaps 'we' loosely agree to avoid WoL for a bit when just 'dropping in' to fly?

 

 

 

I would support this idea if it could be made to work we do need to get the numbers of players up in general though and I suspect the price tag of the game and cost of getting a rig that is good enough is not helping

[wellenbrecher]

You can play this without problem and with decent graphics on a 400$ crate, that's not really a problem IMO.

Say what you will, but the comparatively old engine and Dx9 thing kept system requirements really low.

 

The game just has a bad rep now and that'll be hard to get rid off.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

"BnZ" is nothing else than a simple maneuver but people take it as a flying style, and they think they are flying their planes in the "right way".

 

Funny thing is these same people are often those who have 0 clue in ACM, and you see that the day you finally come on their six (hard thing, since they are at 8000m about 99% of time, because they are afraid to see someone above them, since they don't know how to react, then), they will either die within seconds, or run to the corner of the map.

 

Question is... why do you need a captured Yak-1 to be able to fight them, why do you not simply use your plane to his advantages ?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Ze_Hairy

[Hoots]

The way you choose to fly your own plane is the right way, why bemoan people who know their limits and don't want to be easy meat for the way you want to fly?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

"BnZ" is nothing else than a simple maneuver but people take it as a flying style

It a manoeuvring style that proved VERY effective as far as the LW was concerned. If you want to fly in a server get a few kills get shot down re-spawn and rinse and repeat that's just fine.

 

If you are seriously saying that the 109 is a match for a Yak, with pilots of the same skill level in a low level turning competition,

then that is something we would never agree upon.

 

And as I said in another post you don't have to be at 8000m just higher than the bandit.    

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I may be misunderstanding your point, but you seem to be expecting people to attempt maneuvers which are unsuitable to their ability, or their understanding of a situation, and are very likely to result in 'death' rather than 'survive' to fight another day?

 

Getting shot down is what will make you better and prevent you from making the same mistake 2 times, we are playing SIM.

 

It's not like russian fighters are better down low or something, it's Stalingrad.

 

You can say whatever you want, i hate these guys, because every time i fly Germans and we lose the match, i know it's because of these guys that stay at 8000m the entire session, that compose the 3/4 of the team.

 

If you are seriously saying that the 109 is a match for a Yak, with pilots of the same skill level in a low level turning competition,

then that is something we would never agree upon.

 

And as I said in another post you don't have to be at 8000m just higher than the bandit.    

 

Exactly as i said, 0 ACM.

 

Look at your own words, you're saying that if you don't "BnZ only", that means you're actually "turnfighting" enemy fighters. Yes because turnfight is the only way to dogfight, well known.

 

Stop joking, they go at +7000m because THEY KNOW that no Russian will attempt to go higher, they feel "safe".

 

Don't say "i'm doing BnZ only, i engage only with altitude advantage, it's historical and correct" while staying at 8000m on eastern front.

[9./JG27golani79]

Haven´t played for a few days yet but I always read "they all stay / fly at 7 / 8k .."

 

Wouldn´t the servers be full of contrails then?

If that´s the case - then why do I see seldom any of them?

 

 

And @ topic - let them complain.

Why engage in a situation which is of a disadvantage for you?

If you feel it´s better to fly a certain tactic against certain enemy planes then just stick to it and don´t let them force you into anything you dont want to do.

Edited August 13, 2015 by 9./JG27golani79

[Hoots]

If it's a SIM then what's wrong with people flying as they like? Not everyone can be a hot shot fighter pilot and I'm sure some people like actually pretending to fly the plane rather than trying to pull air combat tricks that mostly got researched, practiced and formalised after the war. Not everyone is you, we all have different ways to enjoy the game, if some of those styles annoy you and makes you hate people then probably you're taking it all a bit too seriously.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Look at your own words, you're saying that if you don't "BnZ only", that means you're actually "turnfighting" enemy fighters. Yes because turnfight is the only way to dogfight, well known. Stop joking, they go at +7000m because THEY KNOW that no Russian will attempt to go higher, they feel "safe". Don't say "i'm doing BnZ only, i engage only with altitude advantage, it's historical and correct" while staying at 8000m on eastern front.

 

I don't care how you fly Hairy......And You are missing the point entirely.....

 

[=LD=Penshoon]

I think what Ze_Hairy is trying to say is that if you limit your flying techniques to only the ones your particular plane excel at you become an predictable opponent vulnerable to exploit. When you make contact with an enemy you evaluate the situation, energy states and relative aircraft performances and compare it to past experiences and make an decision on what the best way of action is. Sometimes you get stuck in a disadvantageous position and if you've spent most of your time fighting with huge energy advantages you won't have much past experience to compare the situation to.

 

I die a lot, but I like to think I become better with every death.  

 

Anyway it's just a game, just have fun 

[Dr_Molenbeek]

If it's a SIM then what's wrong with people flying as they like? Not everyone can be a hot shot fighter pilot and I'm sure some people like actually pretending to fly the plane rather than trying to pull air combat tricks that mostly got researched, practiced and formalised after the war. Not everyone is you, we all have different ways to enjoy the game, if some of those styles annoy you and makes you hate people then probably you're taking it all a bit too seriously.

 

Those who are taking the game too seriously are those useless folks who stay to the stratosphere because they are afraid of dying.

 

I don't care how you fly Hairy......And You are missing the point entirely.....

 

Bad faith.

[Hoots]

Those who are taking the game too seriously are those useless folks who stay to the stratosphere because they are afraid of dying.

 

Apart from the fact that nobody is dying of course and thus people are unlikely to be "afraid" and strangely, I don't see them telling people they hate people who fly differently, or calling others useless. If the best you have is insults it's probably time to stop.

[Feathered_IV]

run forrest run, thats another good one against bnz

I've used that one a few times back in the day to get p-38s to come on back. It's very effective.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I hear you Hairy, really I do BUT.......you can be a master of acm but if there are 2 relatively good pilots in yaks on your tail.... 9 times out of 10, you are toast. In WoL if I go below 1000m near a LW objective, I often end up with 3 or 4 reds on my tail.

 

I often get impatient and go headfirst into a furball and get the odd kill but by then I've lost speed, I'm on the deck (can't dive/no E) and there are 20 happy yak pilots on my naked ass. I have flown yaks and it is quite a lot of fun being in a furball because you can turn and roll all day.... I get why the reds are frustrated when a LW guy runs because its hard to reel them in and force a mistake. If you get the slightest whiff of a hit on a LW plane on the deck..... oooohhh man, its christmas in Russia.

 

I have seen videos (thanks Hairy) of great acm against VVS planes but I think when there are a few other reds around you are not going to last long at all. Even on normal servers, the good pilots stay high and rarely get down on the deck. The LW guys down low get hammered, no doubt about it and I don't think anyone can argue that.

 

As I said, I am not good at furballing in a 109 and I don't like getting shot down all the time so there is no need to get involved in it. In a yak I am quite happy to go at turning because maybe it feels like I am immediately at an advantage..... dunno why that is, anyone care to tell me why???

Edited August 13, 2015 by DendroAspis

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

I am disappointed now.

 

How is it possible that so many people think Bf-109 have no chance at low alt ?

Do you even know how it looks like to fight on german side as a ground pounder/jabo ? Well, it's just plain loneliness. Flying solo, bombing solo, straffing solo... Looking at the number of players: same on both teams.

 

Often, one fighter come to attack me. Oh no ! What should I do ? I have a Fw-190, pure B&Z plane, of course !

Well, just have to fight, roll, trying to manoeuvre to stay out of sight, and using the good climb rate and speed of the 190 to take the advantage.

Yep, it's definitely not easy if you just turnfight on a horizontal plan. Why don't try something else then ? Is the Bf-109 a bad climber ? Doesn't it have some advantages over russian fighters at low alt ? Is B&Z impossible at low alt ?

 

The roll rates of LaGG-3/La-5 are exaggerated, the stalling speed of Yak-1 with flaps is too low... But even still, are they faster than you ? Are they better climber than you ? Is your plane devoid of ailerons ?

 

Maybe if average german player asks himself those questions, he might realize that being below 1000m is not a death sentence.

 

I may seem pissed right now (because I am), mainly because when I fly on the russian side, there is plenty of Il-2s, fighter's escort, fighter-bombers. And yes, they are winning the round, because they are destroying the objectives, while on the german team, there is one or two ground pounders who are trying to levelling the odds, because half of the team is at high alt to safely make kills.

 

I never saw, NEVER, a Bf-109 doing jabo. Why can we put bombs on them ? It does not help to fight fighters, is that it ?

 

Try to remember what's the goal of military aviation. Having air superiority is one thing, using it to help the ground forces is another one. Bro tip: the ground forces are on the ground

[TWC_Ace]

ROF was initially designed as dogfight sim not full scale sim (though COOPS were fun)..simmilar is happening with BOS and yaks questional FM emphasizes the problem with fast food dogfight mentality of (most) ppl on servers.

Imagine devs fixes the flaps exploit in yak and its uber turning capabilities and ufo energy retention, imagine the BOS engine got boost regarding large scale SEOW batttles, COOPS or dogfight servers which would somehow limit unrealistic constant down low turning fiesta...alos we need stronger AI near bases and targets with more "brains"....

Edited August 13, 2015 by blackram_

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

I think the lack of cover is not because people want to fly high alt, it is because very few want to fly cover!

 

I do, but..would always make sure I flew higher to aid spotting, and, oh my god, try and give an energy advantage on anyone attacking what I was escorting.

 

If you ask and receive an escort, they are really not going to fly much higher than you.

 

And I have done jabo in a 109, but the 250kg is not really worth it compared to the 190s 500kg. And again, when I've done jabo I will try to approach at 4000m or so (oh dear) to id the target and avoid tangling with the yaks on the deck before the target which would mean just discarding the bomb.

250 Kgs is still more than the 2*100 Kgs of Yak-1/LaGG-3/La-5.

But I always see some of them taking those cute little bombs, coming along the heavier Il-2s, at an higher alt (but it's still low though). If bogies appear, they just drop'em and go after them. If nothing is encountered, well, it's still 200 Kgs of explosives on the objective (+ the strafing if they are motivated)

Discarding the bomb is not a fatality. It's way better to drop the package before the objective to be able to keep enemy fighters busy, than being shot down. Heavier planes will do the job.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I was mixing it up with a Yak at 2500m in a G-2 last night.  Great fight.  He got disconnected sadly.  I simply kept my energy up and I was fine.

These people who think they need to be at 7km, only "boom and zoom", can only engage while going in a 650kmh dive or think that dealing with a Yak is impossible just shows ignorance and narrow mindedness.

If you don't know how to energy fight in a 109, you shouldn't be flying a 109.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

These people who think they need to be at 7km, only "boom and zoom", can only engage while going in a 650kmh dive or think that dealing with a Yak is impossible just shows ignorance and narrow mindedness.

 

 

Do you see the irony of this? 

[Sunde]

I was mixing it up with a Yak at 2500m in a G-2 last night.  Great fight.  He got disconnected sadly.  I simply kept my energy up and I was fine.

 

These people who think they need to be at 7km, only "boom and zoom", can only engage while going in a 650kmh dive or think that dealing with a Yak is impossible just shows ignorance and narrow mindedness.

 

If you don't know how to energy fight in a 109, you shouldn't be flying a 109.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Do you see the irony of this?

 

 

Yes

 

 

 

These people who think they need to be at 7km, only "boom and zoom", can only engage while going in a 650kmh dive or think that dealing with a Yak is impossible just shows ignorance and narrow mindedness.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

It is incredibly humorous to me that those who were united through acclaim for the developer and the sim are now divided by who likes to fly what and how they like to fly it.

 

Where is that old thread about how endless critiquing and making suggestions destroys the genre and the community?

 

I think that it is the mentality of "you should play the way I want you to play" that is going to divide us all up.

 

I have an idea...

 

The JG5 guys can fly at 9KM with nary an enemy contact just the way they want to - I like it, use your advantages. Nothing unfair about that... And if they get bored... Well, they get bored...

 

And for the guy who wants to fly a G-2 at 1KM... Don't complain to any of use when you get relentlessly swatted out of the sky...

 

And for the other guy who wants to fly a Yak at 1KM... Don't complain that you aren't finding an entertaining number of 109's on the deck who want to get in to a horizontal pissing match with you...

Edited August 13, 2015 by Space_Ghost

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Please all you 109ers please stay high. You can B and Z all you want. You may get 1 or 2 of us. But sooner or later all your bases are belong to us.

 

 

Lol

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Please all you 109ers please stay high. You can B and Z all you want. You may get 1 or 2 of us. But sooner or later all your bases are belong to us

 

Yes I see!

 

 

[MasaIV]

I think the debate on the tactics used in multiplayer dogfights is related more closely to that of strafing aircraft taking off in multiplayer, as it is more about the enjoyment the players get from their time with the game.  It seems to me that most of the debate centers around one set of players getting annoyed at the tactics of BnZ players because, ultimately, it is less fun to play against a BnZ player.  

 

We are, after all, here for entertainment (in one way or another).  That entertainment is different for different people.  For some, it is most enjoyable to be turning as hard as possible without stalling ("one inch from out of control"), trying to bring their guns onto a target that is fighting back.  For others, it is the enjoyment that comes from engaging another human in a contest and surviving - which leads to the use of tactics that will result in perhaps fewer kills, but fewer deaths as well.  I certainly fall into that category.  In all of the multiplayer games and simulators I play, I try to stay alive as much as possible.

 

The tactics a simulator pilot uses (in IL2 BoS/BoM) versus what an actual combat pilot uses are going to be different.  One risks at most his reputation, the other risks his life (and by extension, that of his friends through the ultimate outcome of the war in which he is fighting).  This can be easily demonstrated with students of swordsmanship.  Using a training sword, you might find a student being much more bold than when they train against a live blade.  It is an incredibly eye-opening experience for students.  They tend to, all of the sudden, second guess their tactics, measure (distancing), and footwork when a mistake may result in something much worse than a bruise.  Though what they are doing is exactly the same as it was before, when they face a real blade, the way they go about things changes.  

 

So I can see where pilots of world war II would have used the tactics that put them in the most advantageous position (such as only attacking when the risk was minimal).  And for some of us, replicating their tactics in a simulator like IL2, is a way for us to connect to that moment in history, and pay homage to the pilots who shaped the outcome of the second world war.

 

I don't think we can complain about the way someone else is playing so long as they are not exploiting a bug or hacking.

Edited August 13, 2015 by MasaIV

[==LD==Lemsko]

lol at the people who still think boom and zoomn is a fighting style. its like hairy said 1 maneuver. its like saying my style is left turning.

 

and usually people who reduce themself to 1 maneuver only (which also needs the alt advantage to begin with) are usually clueless when it comes to air combat.