Macchi Now

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Yes tovarisch... no.

 

Do you know 109s were doing "BnZ" on IL-2s ? /sarcasm

 

Whatever your plane, when you have spotted an enemy formation below you, will you sacrifice your energy to start tight maneuvering, or you will make Hit & Run attacks ?

 

Does this means you're flying a "BnZ plane" ? 

 

Go read Robert E Shaw's book and return with some information....

 

You are being childish. 

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Go read Robert E Shaw's book and return with some information....

 

You are being childish. 

 

Ooooooh please my dear, the lord that stays at 9000m an entire session, teach me how i should fly my german plane !

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

...

 

Can we please have a facepalm emoticon uploaded..?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Of course, Hit & Run attacks were often used by Germans, to stay in formation during attacks.

As Mr. Hartmann said he would not engage unless he had 2000m of clearance then he would dive at great speed onto the target. There is another interview where he stated that he would zoom in attack and disengage immediately. Classic Boom and Zoom.  The long protracted dogfight "furballs" we see in sims rarely if ever happened in real life. In the main they were over in seconds. This of course isn't real life but it's always best to fly an aircraft even a simulated one to its best advantage, surely?  

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Edit to other post

 

 

 

Ooooooh please my dear, the lord that stays at 9000m an entire session, teach me how i should fly my german plane !

 

 

Deary me.

 

Any pilot of an energy fighter will look for an advantage and that comes from being the highest and the fastest contact.  100's of fighter ace antidotes speak of speed, height and surprise as being the keys to success. They don't talk about low level hard turning furball tussles.

 

You may not agree that there are Boom and Zoom aircraft but the pilots sure as hell flew then using Boom and Zoom tactics and that is pretty undeniable.

If you want to get in low level turning "dogfights" with superior turning aircraft where your advantage is gone that's up to you. Bring on the Mig-3 and let the fun begin.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

You may not agree that there are Boom and Zoom aircraft but the pilots sure as hell flew then using Boom and Zoom tactics and that is pretty undeniable.

 

What i'm saying... but uh.

 

It does not explain why these guys stay at 8000m in BoS, in search of the first soviet fighter they will find... maybe they are waiting for B-17s ?

 

What happens now when these "BnZ players" have an enemy above them ? They are so used to have altitude advantage and nothing else that they do bad things (you recognize them at the second you came on their six), get killed, then go complain on the forum how russian planes are OP.

 

And i love what you're saying.

 

So if i don't want to stay at 8000m to "BnZ", it means i'm actually at sea level, turnfighting russians... OK.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Ze_Hairy

[FTC_Etherlight]

Hartmann is one Ace out of many. To declare that Germans mostly used BnZ tactics because one shining example propagated the effectiveness of the tactic is a bit far fetched. There are examples for other ways of flying to be extremely effective. Marseille is a very good example for that. He was known for his very aggressive fighting style that mostly involved deflection shots and active turnfighting (to a degree of course).

 

The fact of the matter is that the tendency of German pilots in this game to stay at 6-8K altitude in superior planes to pick on the odd Russian who is not fed up with that already, leads to the very disappointing situations in terms of team balance (both in numbers and in the willingness to actually play the objectives) we have on the Wings of Liberty server quite a lot.

Just today I joined the server to see 19 German players going up against 6 Russian players. That alone is a deplorable state of affairs, but here comes the kicker: the Russians were winning the match! I joined the Russian team and saw 2 things: 1. Russians in IL-2s and Pe-2s starting on the secondary airfields to destroy objectives. 2. About 10 Germans circling the (empty) Russian front airfields while their objectives got obliterated. Great fun was to be had....not. That's what most people who are fighting this "thou have to boom and zoom!" mentality are trying to prevent, because it is a) utterly boring for both sides and b) utterly stupid in terms of an accurate depiction and simulation of warfare.

 

Edit: Another outcome of the current "meta" is that if I play the German side and actually try to defend the objectives from the numerous groundpounders I am mostly alone trying to do so if my squadmates are not on a TS-server with me. Funnily enough there are Russian fighters most of the time, who properly defend their groundpounding comrades and swarm me, rightfully so. I just feel like a substantial amount of German fighterpilots is actually A-OK with staying up high and BnZing the occasional target of opportunity as long as they minimize the chance of dying at all costs. Maybe I'm dramatizing things, but it is my honest experience as a pilot of both sides.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Etherlight

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

So if i don't want to stay at 8000m to "BnZ", it means i'm actually at sea level, turnfighting russians... OK.

 

 

Yeah that's fine and thankfully it a sim and not real life, because if you did that in WWII you would last about 5 seconds.
 

One other thing, you don't have to be at 8000m to Boom and Zoom just higher than the bandit. About 2000m higher is good, just as the highest scoring ace of WWII stated .

[6./ZG26_Custard]

That's what most people who are fighting this "thou have to boom and zoom!" mentality are trying to prevent, because it is a) utterly boring for both sides and b) utterly stupid in terms of an accurate depiction and simulation of warfare.

 

It's not a Boom and Zoom mentality, its just using an aircraft to its best advantage.  Talking about WOL, we will never get an accurate depiction and simulation of warfare there because most of the rounds are over in 20 minutes. 

 

Edit:

If you want some fantastic action check this out.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16460-friday-night-bomber-flights/page-6?do=findComment&comment=278562

Edited August 12, 2015 by JG5_Custard

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Yeah that's fine and thankfully it a sim and not real life, because if you did that in WWII you would last about 5 seconds.

 

Seems like the term "dogfighting" with its package of maneuvers of all sorts is reduced to "turnfighting" by these "BnZ players".

 

I feel like throwing up.

[LukeFF]

[senseispcc]

In all books I did read about WW2 air combat in all theatre of operations the most important in fighter combat is "energy"! 

 

A combination of engine power, speed, altitude, attitude between you and your opponent. If you can maintain your energy at a higher level than your enemy you can and shall many times be the Victor in a air battle.

 

Energy you can trade for altitude, speed, manoeuvrability, with energy you cannot only engage your enemy but also disengage of a bad situation.

 

Some planes are better at maintaining their energy and they fight well even if the turning ability of this planes is not as good.

A note you can use a B'nZ tactic only against a static enemy like a box of bombers or fighters howdid not see you otherwise it is a hit and run. And this you should not try with a slow figther.

[LukeFF]

So, about that Macchi...

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I feel like throwing up.

 

It's all that turning you are doing and you don't want to ruin that nice 190 cockpit!  (I jest)

 

 

 

Energy you can trade for altitude, speed, manoeuvrability, with energy you cannot only engage your enemy but also disengage of a bad situation.

  yes, but by diving on the target you lose the altitude but gain the energy which then can be turned back into altitude. A cycle of diving and climbing (Boom and Zoom). Turning in a 109 bleeds off loads of energy and loses you all of the advantage against  something like the Yak.   

 

If I was flying a Yak I would want to get into a turn fight and stay low, where the advantage is mine.

 

 

 

A note you can use a B'nZ tactic only against a static enemy like a box of bombers or fighters howdid not see you otherwise it is a hit and run. And this you should not try with a slow figther.

You can use Boom and Zoom against fighters too.

 

I think some people are maybe confusing the issue here. I want to fly these simulated aircraft to their best advantage, I am not some Boom and Zoom junkie. 

 

Back on topic, the 202, very nice but I would prefer to see this aircraft in a MTO  against Hurricanes.

Edited August 13, 2015 by JG5_Custard

[Maico]

Guys, come on now.... 

  I fly offline.  I love the new addition.  Except for the paintjob blending in like a pink lizard in a jungle.  Found the Yak easy prey.  I thought the guns were adequate until I attacked a train...  After 3 passes I think the engineer and flak crew were laughing at me.  I managed to stop the locomotive but that was it.  The engine sounds and gun sounds are fantastic.  View to the rear is typical WW2 tail dragger.  Only the Japanese Zero, Oscar and Fw got this right early on. Italians hated enclosed cockpits(See G-50,Mc-200) but in Russian winter...  I think the Rata pilots were jealous he he.

How long did it take you to figure out the brakes?  Look Mom, no push pedals lol. 

  For what it is, it is a fun plane. 

[Freycinet]

Well, the funny thing is that historians pretty much agree that the Luftwaffe was actually much less effective than it could have been because of the Aces mentality. Way too many fighter units were all about building the kill count of a select few than about effective support of friendly forces. So maybe the situation online slightly reflects that reality? :-) With the difference that online every 109 jock considers himself an ace and nobody wants to be a wingman/Kaschmarek...

 

Of course the Luftwaffe fighters flew BnZ: it was in their DNA and it played to the advantages of their planes. It is actually also the better way to defend a low-flying Stukageschwader (even though the Stuka crew may feel more psychologically comforted by a close escort). That was abundantly shown in the BoB.

[Finkeren]

Well, the funny thing is that historians pretty much agree that the Luftwaffe was actually much less effective than it could have been because of the Aces mentality. Way too many fighter units were all about building the kill count of a select few than about effective support of friendly forces. So maybe the situation online slightly reflects that reality? :-) With the difference that online every 109 jock considers himself an ace and nobody wants to be a wingman/Kaschmarek...

 

That's my take as well. The Luftwaffe was pretty much a total failure on the Eastern Front as a tactical or strategic force. Only occasionally did they succeed with a large objective that actually helped the German war effort. The rest of the time they were good at scoring kills and that was pretty much it.

 

Whenever I fly VVS on the Liberty server and the LW pilots rank up all the kills but VVS still win by actually playing the mission, I think "Yeah that hits pretty close to reality."

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Whenever I fly VVS on the Liberty server and the LW pilots rank up all the kills but VVS still win by actually playing the mission, I think "Yeah that hits pretty close to reality."

 

On the WOL server you have the mad rush to the ground targets and the VVS have two very effective aircraft to do this, The IL2 and the Pe-2. The rounds end in some cases after 20 minutes.

 

 

It will be very interesting to see what happens when we have two much more effective LW aircraft (The 110 and the 88) in the ground pounding role.

 

Back to the 202, it's not a great ground pounder

[SR-F_Winger]

I think what would REALLY help here would be if the global statistics would finally come for expertservers. Detailed statistics with good points for groundattacks. So groundattackers can be seen up high on the list as well. I mean everyone says "i dont care for statistics" yet still i am pretty certain everone is kinda proud and likes to see himself on the top of the list at the end. Even if they dont admit.

Right now there is no incentive to do groundattacking and on top of it it hardly takes any skill to be successful in it (no offense).

I do some groundattacks from time to time but its far from being as demanding (and exciting) as shooting down a human fighterpilot.

[Brano]

I dont care about statistics.At all.

[Finkeren]

On the WOL server you have the mad rush to the ground targets and the VVS have two very effective aircraft to do this, The IL2 and the Pe-2. The rounds end in some cases after 20 minutes.

 

Don't the Germans have the largest bomber with by far the biggest bombload and deadly defensive armament as well as the most precise dive bomber in the sim, both of which can carry those nukes that obliterate an entire target area? (Or are those locked on WOL? I forget)

 

To me it's far from a clear cut case, that the VVS has the best planes for taking out mission objectives, and even if it was so, that's still no excuse for the LW pilots to not fly He 111 or Ju 87 once in a while. Still I almost never see a Jerry bomber and when a LW player actually attacks an objective it's usually a Fw 190 playing fighter bomber.

 

It will be very interesting to see what happens when we have two much more effective LW aircraft (The 110 and the 88) in the ground pounding role.

 

That I agree with. I have some hope, that especially the 110 will be put to good use.

[Brano]

There is no instant gratification in flying stuka or heinkel.And many LW pilots mess the engine management a lot.Maybe a bad habit coming from full auto CEM in their fighters.

[URUAker]

The few times i have gone online and flown the stuka or heinkel i found it easy to stay under recomended settings using the markers in the dials.

But it is a pain in the a.. that once you get to the objective there is only russian fighters wile your cover is so high they cant even see you, even if you type in the chat where you are going to attack. 

[Brano]

Taking satan with you is not a cheat because your patience must for sure exceed its weight but we are OT by large margin,that's true.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

Don't the Germans have the largest bomber with by far the biggest bombload and deadly defensive armament as well as the most precise dive bomber in the sim, both of which can carry those nukes that obliterate an entire target area? (Or are those locked on WOL? I forget)

 

Yes they do, but in the mad on the deck rush the round is over before you can gain enough altitude to level bomb anything.

[MasaIV]

I am really looking forward to trying out the Macchi this evening.  Especially since I know so little about that aircraft.

Edited August 13, 2015 by MasaIV

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Disregard, positive votes restored and issued. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

See I don't just Boom and Zoom! I have to add this wasn't on the WOL server though. It took me 20 minutes to gain a decent altitude and the round would have already ended.   

[6./ZG26_Emil]

See I don't just Boom and Zoom! I have to add this wasn't on the WOL server though. It took me 20 minutes to gain a decent altitude and the round would have already ended.   

 

You should be ashamed being at that altitude!!!

 

Real 111 pilots fly under 50ft 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

You should be ashamed being at that altitude!!! Real 111 pilots fly under 50ft

 

I was seriously thinking of engaging in some turn and burn action!

[Danziger]

Can one not boom and zoom in a bomber? Isn't that the whole general idea? Get on the target and drop a boom then zoom away hoping they don't kill you.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Can one not boom and zoom in a bomber? Isn't that the whole general idea? Get on the target and drop a boom then zoom away hoping they don't kill you.

 

Yes, please attempt a 30° dive for a minimum of 1KM in the He111 and get back to me on that. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Yes, please attempt a 30° dive for a minimum of 1KM in the He111 and get back to me on that. 

 

We are reforming the silent hunter squadron :D

[Finkeren]

Can one not boom and zoom in a bomber? Isn't that the whole general idea? Get on the target and drop a boom then zoom away hoping they don't kill you.

Actually I've found it quite effective when dive bombing in the Pe-2 to not zoom up after releasing the bombs.

 

Instead what I do is: Approach target at just below 4500m (to avoid giveaway chemtrails) and fly right over it and continue for about 15 sec (roughly 1km). Roll onto your back and pull up till you have the target in sight(pretty much a split-S). Engage dive brakes for a short while but retract them again after a couple seconds to allow the plane to accelerate to +700km/h in the dive. Release bombs at 1200m and pull slowly out to level just above treetop level.

 

Voila, you are already on course for home doing 700km/h at low level. You're pretty much immune to AAA at that speed and altitude and any German fighter will have a hard time intercepting you, unless he's been following you the whole way through.

 

(If you have the nerve you can do the dive completely without brakes, closed throttle and fully open radiators - You'll nearly freeze the engine and end up at 750km/h, nearly enough to tear your plane apart, but you can then slam the the throttle, close the rads and keep her above 700 for a good amount of time.)

[Danziger]

Actually I've found it quite effective when dive bombing in the Pe-2 to not zoom up after releasing the bombs.

 

Instead what I do is: Approach target at just below 4500m (to avoid giveaway chemtrails) and fly right over it and continue for about 15 sec (roughly 1km). Roll onto your back and pull up till you have the target in sight(pretty much a split-S). Engage dive brakes for a short while but retract them again after a couple seconds to allow the plane to accelerate to +700km/h in the dive. Release bombs at 1200m and pull slowly out to level just above treetop level.

 

Voila, you are already on course for home doing 700km/h at low level. You're pretty much immune to AAA at that speed and altitude and any German fighter will have a hard time intercepting you, unless he's been following you the whole way through.

 

(If you have the nerve you can do the dive completely without brakes, closed throttle and fully open radiators - You'll nearly freeze the engine and end up at 750km/h, nearly enough to tear your plane apart, but you can then slam the the throttle, close the rads and keep her above 700 for a good amount of time.)

This sounds awesome.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

As Mr. Hartmann said he would not engage unless he had 2000m of clearance then he would dive at great speed onto the target. There is another interview where he stated that he would zoom in attack and disengage immediately. Classic Boom and Zoom.  The long protracted dogfight "furballs" we see in sims rarely if ever happened in real life. In the main they were over in seconds. This of course isn't real life but it's always best to fly an aircraft even a simulated one to its best advantage, surely?  

 

See, decide, attack, reverse.

 

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF.

Edited August 13, 2015 by T-oddball