Run Away!

[SharpeXB]

So how effective in real combat is a plane who's only choice is to skedaddle* in every engagement?

 

Of course we aren't in real combat. We're in gameland where we can't die.

 

But it's funny that the "hit and run" tactics involve more running than hitting. And the "B&Z" planes once they've boomed have no choice but to "extend" which in fighter pilot jargon also means skedaddle. It's possible in these games like RoF too, to chase the SPADs all the way back to base, completely out of the combat area. Same with the feared Fw-190 here. It has no choice because sticking around to fight means losing. I'm sure I'll read a passage in one of my books like "We spotted a feared LaGG 3 and knowing we couldn't win, flew at high speed back to the Flugplatz with him in hot persuit, hoping our Flak guns might get him"

I'm sure all the flight modeling stuff is correct, it's just funny how this plays out in gameland.

 

*A U.S. (particularly Southern) term that rhymes with "take to the saddle" whenever you see the foe.

[Finkeren]

First and foremost because the fights we see in a combat flight sim has little resemblance to real WW2 air combat. It involves a lot of ahistoric 'duels' between single or pairs of aircraft and the dogfights drag on for much longer than the far majority of real WW2 combats which mostly lasted seconds rather than minutes.

That's a simplistic answer of course, but at the end of the day, that's all it really comes down to.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Finkeren

[JtD]

I can't repeat often enough what a difference teamwork makes for aircraft that are fast and hard hitting. In real life as much as in game. Most of my experience still comes from Il-2 1946, but it can't be that much different in BoS.

 

Where you on your own in your Fw190 spot a single dreaded LaGG-3 and run away forever, the guy with a wingman will then have someone in superior position to clear his six - even if the wingman too has someone on his six himself. He still is fast enough to stay out of trouble.

 

From my experience, a setup like La-5 vs. Fw190 in

1vs1 ends up with 10:1 in favour of the La-5.

2vs2 ends up 1:1:.

4vs4 ends up 1:10 in favour of Fw190.

Provided folks use good team tactics.

[SharpeXB]

Of course that's true about WWII. I'm reading an Erich Hartmann book now where he does describe some protracted fights with a few particularly skilled opponents. Those are clearly the exception though.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Are you asking why a pilot in a disadvantageous position would choose not to engage? I'm sure it was the norm in the real world. It the real world people are MUCH more conscious of their own mortality. You can tell anyone whatever you want in the comfort of the debriefing room about why you "couldn't" engage and not address the reason you "didn't" engage.

[Saurer]

I don't think that the usual pilots did fly thier aircraft to the limits as we in flightsims usually do

[SharpeXB]

Are you asking why a pilot in a disadvantageous position would choose not to engage? I'm sure it was the norm in the real world. It the real world people are MUCH more conscious of their own mortality. You can tell anyone whatever you want in the comfort of the debriefing room about why you "couldn't" engage and not address the reason you "didn't" engage.

It's odd to watch the Fw-190 which was regarded as a good aircraft fleeing from almost any combat situation. I know that's what I do when I fly it. And I always find myself chasing it in the Yak.

In the 109 you can extend and gain a better position and come back. In the 190 you just gotta fly back to Germany ;-)

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Only if you put it in a bad position to begin with. There are many credible arguments surrounding the Focke Wulf's FM and performance. I stress, credible, arguments. That said, however, if flown to it's in game strengths it is an excellent aircraft. Just don't try to have a knife fight in a knapsack and you should be fine. 

 

When it was first introduced (in game) it was death to follow a Russian aircraft through more than about 270 degrees. Then there were improvements (and I got used to it more) and it was safe to dogfight in it. Then the Russian AC got some improvements and its back to about two circles before it is healthy to disengage. After that it is a bit of a footrace and the performance at particular altitudes can make it a long one. Flown properly the FW can extend from most encounters at co-E or better. Never pitch the FW for more than 315-325 kph in a long drag and be very aware of both the superchager lag zone while climbing as well as the high altitude performance. In game the FW is happiest between 2300 and about 5500 m.

 

The margin of error and difference in performance with skilled adversaries in a long drag is small, however, and that gets us back to an FM argument best held elsewhere.

Edited August 10, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

Only if you put it in a bad position to begin with.

 

Well any plane can win in a good position. It's getting out of a bad one and making it good that's the challenge.

The Fw 190 cannot maneuver well and isn't fast enough to make up for the fact that it can't maneuver.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The Fw 190 cannot maneuver well

 

The Fw 190 can maneuver just fine, i've just had a nice fight against a Yak-1 that spawned on my tail, forced scissor fight, and was about to destroy him when a La-5 came by surprise and killed my engine.

 

The only thing that still needs an explanation about the Fw 190A-3 is the curious... glorious roll start inertia. 

 

"In game the FW is happiest between 2300 and about 5500 m"

 

Below 2500m, you mean. 

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Are you asking why a pilot in a disadvantageous position would choose not to engage?

What's the point of playing the game if there isn't anything challenging about it?  ANYONE can hop in a 190, takeoff, climb to 7km and bounce VVS fighters.  Flat out silly for people to be up there for no reason anyways.

 

I know that fighters often engaged in disadvantageous positions because they had no choice i.e. escorting, bombing, ground attack...they simply could not run and abandon their mission or comrades.  Thus, the difference between real life and a game.  People decide in this game whether to have a purpose or just fly around aimlessly looking for kills near the stratosphere.

 

Yawn.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

they simply could not run and abandon their mission

 

Herein lies the problem. What, EXACTLY, is the mission? There isn't one at the moment. It's getting better and mission designers are addressing it but there is no definable mission on most servers and no significant reward for flying cooperatively. For me, the problem is a lack of a ground war which would diversify the mission quite a bit more.

 

Currently, on the normal server, the Russian's greatest hope is completing the destruction of Axis airfields and flipping the map before the Germans can complete the A2A bloodletting. It's better on the Expert servers but not by much.

The Fw 190 can maneuver just fine, i've just had a nice fight against a Yak-1 that spawned on my tail, forced scissor fight, and was about to destroy him when a La-5 came by surprise and killed my engine.

 

The only thing that still needs an explanation about the Fw 190A-3 is the curious... glorious roll start inertia. 

 

"In game the FW is happiest between 2300 and about 5500 m"

 

Below 2500m, you mean. 

No, I don't. I think the Fw is an excellent plane above the supercharger lag zone and only get below 1300m because the Russians force me to go down there to engage most of the time.

 

As to fighting in it, my mates are convinced the way to engage in it is fast vs Yaks and slow vs La's. I'm a speed merchant and avoid slow fights if at all possible. I've never been a dogfighter and don't pretend to be now. I have become a proponent of popping the combat flap to help get my nose around in a slow fight and tucking them away almost immediately (2-5 seconds).

Edited August 10, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

 I know that fighters often engaged in disadvantageous positions because they had no choice i.e. escorting, bombing, ground attack...they simply could not run and abandon their mission or comrades.  

That's usually what I'm doing in the game. Going after the targets or escorting. I tried escorting a Stuka the other day in the 190. Not a good plane for that task since you can't stick around to protect the other aircraft.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

No, I don't. I think the Fw is an excellent plane above the supercharger lag zone

 

How you think it performs above 2500m is not important.

 

What is important is how it performs in comparison to his enemies, up there... and we know that the 190 is massively underperforming above 2000m in winter conditions, which mean you're restricted to Hit & Run attacks only.

[SharpeXB]

and we know that the 190 is massively underperforming above 2000m in winter conditions,

Yeah I understand this is a factor. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Summer Map.

[SharpeXB]

The Fw 190 can maneuver just fine,

 

Well if maneuver means turning? Not so much.

And the vertical aspect is limited by the altitude performance otherwise a fast plane should be one that climbs well too. In most cases I see the fleeing 190 not attempting to climb. No wonder since at a certain altitude band from about 2-4k M it's performance vanishes.

Maybe that will change in the summer.

Edited August 10, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Well if maneuver means turning? Not so much.

 

More like a combination of the ailerons and elevator authority.

 

You have ailerons, use them, tovarisch.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

Herein lies the problem. What, EXACTLY, is the mission? There isn't one at the moment. It's getting better and mission designers are addressing it but there is no definable mission on most servers and no significant reward for flying cooperatively. For me, the problem is a lack of a ground war which would diversify the mission quite a bit more.

 

Currently, on the normal server, the Russian's greatest hope is completing the destruction of Axis airfields and flipping the map before the Germans can complete the A2A bloodletting. It's better on the Expert servers but not by much.

Fly on Wings of Liberty server.  It's exactly what you're looking for....

[71st_AH_Hooves]

How effective is a plane that absolutely WON'T climb up to my altitude and fight me? I mean come on, all they do is turn at 1000 meters and won't pull up after I capitalize on my strength. I mean jeez it's not like your airplanes strength is different from my..........oh wait.

[SteelValkyrie]

Recently I've been flying jabo with the fw190, one on occasion my wingman was snuck up on by a Yak with high energy. He managed to turn the fight around in a matter of seconds with a scissor manoeuvre which seems to be one of the more effective ways to shake someone off your six.

 

I'm still learning the basics of ACMs but I seem to have a habit of performing a split s when I've bled too much speed and someone is on my tail, the only problem being that there's not too much sky to work with down low. I've had more success escaping in the 109 but definitely feel like the 190 is more responsive despite it's performance lag at certain altitudes. 

 

I mostly rely on my wingman pulling off a decent loose deuce..

[SR-F_Winger]

I really like flying the 190. I fly it almost exclusively the last months even despite the fact that there really is NOTHING you can do but run if you engage co alt, no matter if YAK or LA5 if you have a capable oponent.

Shaking one of either from your six is practically impossible if the russian pilot knows what he is doing. And quite many people online these days are to be considered very skilled IMO.

If youre in the better postion when you start the fight the 190 is a very capable plane and if used agressively enough it can push out quite enough pressure to force the attacked plane to burn enough energy with evasive maneuvers to keep the upper hand. One TIP to all fellow 190 jockeys: USE YOUR FLAPS ON STAGE 1 TO TURN IN AND IMMEDIATELY PUT EM BACK IN AFTER THE ATTACK.

Youll burn quite some energy but will be able to tun in quite well. If your approach is right, the RedStar will have a hard time:) Also dont forget to make excessive use of your emergency power. Even if used up you can disengage and fly a while on cruise setting and the emergency power will become available again.

Not to mention the devastating effect of 4x 20mm hitting at or close to convergence range - BAM, dead:)

 

I think once the flaps of russian airplanes are tuned down to a realistical behavior and the missing performance of the 190 above 2500m is restored everything is fine. OK, I HAVE to mention the odd groundreflections in the windshield and the unrealistic, viewrestricting BARs in the 190 at this point:) And the riddiculous irrecoverable stalls one can get into in the 190 if crossing the line.

 

Right now i am trying to experiment if the violent stall of the FW can be used as a maneuver. All of you surely have experienced that the left wing stalls quite viciously if you pull too hard. But I think with quite some practive one could master this behavior and use it as an advantage. If the reaction on the stall is instant it can be recovered very fast and the rolleffect of this "snapstall" should be impossible to follow by any plane.

Edited August 18, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[indiaciki]

Use flaps ???? On FW 190? High speed? This was in an earlier thread where some people used flaps in combat flying Yaks. You can't use flaps at high speeds. Even if the game has a bug and allows the use of flaps above certain never exceed speeds. It's simply wrong.

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

I really like flying the 190. I fly it almost exclusively the last months even despite the fact that there really is NOTHING you can do but run if you engage co alt, no matter if YAK or LA5 if you have a capable oponent.

Shaking one of either from your six is practically impossible if the russian pilot knows what he is doing.

That's just the type of myth that make people justify the "BnZ" is pure and the only thing they can do against Russian aircraft.

 

Please stop.

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

Thanks to the re-fly button, there area lot of good 'flyers' online because they've had enough time to know their kites very well and/or learn from their mistakes. Not quite so in WW2 where pilots with hundreds and hundreds of hours of combat experience were the exception, not at all as common as what you'll find online. Not a bad thing per se, but it does make for a steeper learning curve for new players or those who can't commit as much time to the sim, not to mention highlight the differences in aircraft characteristics and/or performance.

 

As for running away, even Robert Shaw (author of Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering), says if you are up against the Red Baron, sometimes your only option is to skedaddle   .

 

Good hunting,

Conky

Edited August 18, 2015 by CFC_Conky

[SR-F_Winger]

Use flaps ???? On FW 190? High speed? This was in an earlier thread where some people used flaps in combat flying Yaks. You can't use flaps at high speeds. Even if the game has a bug and allows the use of flaps above certain never exceed speeds. It's simply wrong.

Really? Tell that to the 99,9 percent of virtual VVS pilots online that DO use flaps:P

Edited August 18, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[Dakpilot]

Wonder if when BoS moves to the Pacific all the Imperial pilots are going to cry that the Wildcat and Hellcats pilots are cheating, with their automatic combat flaps

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[SteelValkyrie]

Wonder if when BoS moves to the Pacific all the Imperial pilots are going to cry that the Wildcat and Hellcats pilots are cheating, with their automatic combat flaps

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Is this confirmed? I'd kill a man to get my hands on a Zero fighter 

[Mac_Messer]

So how effective in real combat is a plane who's only choice is to skedaddle* in every engagement?

 

In real WWII air combat such aircraft could enter and exit combat as they pleased (provided that it is flown according to its abilities). In a 100v100 combat situation such ability is a lifesaver because multiple different aircraft enter and exit combat area at the same time. The slower aircraft cannot exit combat area - they follow aircraft exiting combat and are engaged by aircraft entering combat. Those groups take turns at entering/exiting - rinse and repeat.Even in a 20v20 this would have a chance in replicating real life to some degree but a 5v5? Not really.

 

Now add to this that each and every wing flies accordingly to team tactics and communicates proffessionally AND a tactical/strategic target that manages to gather 20-30 aircraft in a fairly small area.

 

With FW190 it is slightly skewed vision because the aircraft excels at firepower which gives more options. In my online days, a tactic was used to mix 109/190 flights - 109 would create a literal furball with yaks/Las - the 190 would only do slashing attacks, extend away and go back do the same thing. Now if we got a higher flight of VVS incoming (and we often did), most of the 109s would have to stay and fight but the 190s had time window to leave.

 

Generally the more aircraft and objectives you mix in, the better 190 becomes. You also need to differentiate between the Anton and the Dora because they are very different. In later war scenarios La7/Spit IX really became a problem but there was little reason to pick a 190 if you could choose from G10/G14/G6AS/K4.

It is obvious that I did not mention the basics of good comms, good teamplay and good gunnery. You need that for the 190 to "work" more than with other aircraft and it was not easy to gather 5 players online in one mission who could do all of it.

 

Similar story is with the P47/P51 - you could dominate LW but it took the right people or objectives.

[Mac_Messer]

Herein lies the problem. What, EXACTLY, is the mission? There isn't one at the moment. It's getting better and mission designers are addressing it but there is no definable mission on most servers and no significant reward for flying cooperatively. For me, the problem is a lack of a ground war which would diversify the mission quite a bit more.

Good post.

 

No historical flying until BoS gets historical missions. The 190 has no place among furball happy crowds.

[Mac_Messer]

That's just the type of myth that make people justify the "BnZ" is pure and the only thing they can do against Russian aircraft.

 

Please stop.

Yea I`m having a similar problem, everytime I engage a VVS dude he pulls on his stick and goes in circles until blacking out so he can justify T&B.

 

Please stop T&Bing.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The 190 has no place among furball happy crowds.

 

If you had entered a furball at least once (and i'm sure you did), you would know it's a place where you see planes everywhere, in front of you, behind you, to your left, to your right.

 

If we forget engine performance, it's simple... the planes that are better in instantaneous maneuverings (hello Fw 190) will do a better job than those who are better in sustained maneuverings (hello Bf 109).

 

"190 cannot into furballs" is a lie that has been invented by lost BnZ players.

[Y-29.Silky]

It's not true that there's "NOTHING" you can do. Of course with the 190 you're going to do it a lot but there's been times I said screw it (because it's a game, or he would catch me anyways if I did extend) and start doing vertical loops and came out as the winner (then ran away to regroup). 

 

A few nights ago my buddy was in a Yak using his flaps against my F-4, I was nonchalantly having a conversation with my other friend while casually out turning his Yak. Lost a little energy but a quick high yoyo and I regained that energy, got into his turn and and shot him down. Now last night, I was in my I-16 and a 109 ran away from me for 10 minutes, that is really sad, running away from an I-16. I am so confident in the 109 F-4, that I don't even bother climbing anymore. I am so sad I didn't get these on video.

 

But back to the 190, if you use it's strength in the vertical and be more aggressive, you will have a lot more fun in it vs. (Oh there's a Yak but I'm not 2000m above it therefore I have to run.)

Edited August 18, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Bearcat]

"190 cannot into furballs" is a lie that has been invented by lost BnZ players.

 

How about..an opinion held as opposed to a lie that has been invented.. See how that changes the whole context of the post? Unless of course you are intentionally trying to call folks with a differing opinion from yours liars..

[indiaciki]

I don't get why most of the threads turn into fights. This is why i started two threads about non-combat flying in the last few days I'm back. I recall an extremly friendly ROF forum the day I joined. A one that was about flying not scoring kills. Maybe I wasn't part of the original IL-2 community because there was no sims for Macs, I don't get the hostility and the lack of interest in flying itself.

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[Feathered_IV]

I'm getting the impression that any time a luftie player gets shot down he automatically consoles himself by say saying the other guy simply MUST have been using his flaps.

[indiaciki]

point is I never noticed that and I would have never thought of using them because aircraft weren't desined for this. Flaps slow planes down. The least thing you want in combat. You should handle your energy well. I don't mind people using flaps - they would malfunction in RL. It would never think of it even though it is possible in BOS. It isn't in RL and it doesn't help at all. I don't see any benefit of doing something that is potentially hazardous to your airplane and that does no good to the one who uses flaps.

 

BTW I'm not a Luftie. I'm Serbian and allied. The Yugoslav airforce fought the Germans in 41 flying 109Es along with Hurricanes against 109Es.

 

Later in the war we flew Yaks, Spits and P 47s... My father's instructor flew the Spit for the RAF in the mediterrian. So I'm not biased at all.

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[KodiakJac]

This argument has been going on as long as there have been MP combat flight sims. Some players think its fun to resolve every sortie with victory or death, while other players think its fun to fly more realistically. For some players its all about Kung Fu ACM, and for other players its all about "the hunt." Keep in mind that Europe's top USAAF ace, Gabby Gabreski, got 28 aerial victories in 166 sorties. That kill to sortie ratio is not fun gaming for some, and for other players its the cat's whiskers. And nary the two will agree.

[indiaciki]

This argument has been going on as long as there have been MP combat flight sims. Some players think its fun to resolve every sortie with victory or death, while other players think its fun to fly more realistically. For some players its all about Kung Fu ACM, and for other players its all about "the hunt." Keep in mind that Europe's top USAAF ace, Gabby Gabreski, got 28 aerial victories in 166 sorties. That kill to sortie ratio is not fun gaming for some, and for other players its the cat's whiskers. And nary the two will agree.

 

166/28 that's more than than impressive. it seems to me that a lot of pilots here these days would not agree. That's a shame. You can't simulate aerial combat with a mindset that doesn't bother landing safely and  if he's willing to trade one kill for several virtual deaths of his own. It's against the logic of aerial combat.

Edited August 19, 2015 by indiaciki

[Bearcat]

I'm getting the impression that any time a luftie player gets shot down he automatically consoles himself by say saying the other guy simply MUST have been using his flaps.

 

 

I don't get it.. I use my flaps all the time in combat..and trim...

[Wulf]

I really like flying the 190. I fly it almost exclusively the last months even despite the fact that there really is NOTHING you can do but run if you engage co alt, no matter if YAK or LA5 if you have a capable oponent.

Shaking one of either from your six is practically impossible if the russian pilot knows what he is doing. And quite many people online these days are to be considered very skilled IMO.

If youre in the better postion when you start the fight the 190 is a very capable plane and if used agressively enough it can push out quite enough pressure to force the attacked plane to burn enough energy with evasive maneuvers to keep the upper hand. One TIP to all fellow 190 jockeys: USE YOUR FLAPS ON STAGE 1 TO TURN IN AND IMMEDIATELY PUT EM BACK IN AFTER THE ATTACK.

Youll burn quite some energy but will be able to tun in quite well. If your approach is right, the RedStar will have a hard time:) Also dont forget to make excessive use of your emergency power. Even if used up you can disengage and fly a while on cruise setting and the emergency power will become available again.

Not to mention the devastating effect of 4x 20mm hitting at or close to convergence range - BAM, dead:)

 

I think once the flaps of russian airplanes are tuned down to a realistical behavior and the missing performance of the 190 above 2500m is restored everything is fine. OK, I HAVE to mention the odd groundreflections in the windshield and the unrealistic, viewrestricting BARs in the 190 at this point:) And the riddiculous irrecoverable stalls one can get into in the 190 if crossing the line.

 

Right now i am trying to experiment if the violent stall of the FW can be used as a maneuver. All of you surely have experienced that the left wing stalls quite viciously if you pull too hard. But I think with quite some practive one could master this behavior and use it as an advantage. If the reaction on the stall is instant it can be recovered very fast and the rolleffect of this "snapstall" should be impossible to follow by any plane.

 

 

I haven't found stalls particularly difficult to recover from in a 190 - as long as you have a bit of altitude of course (1500m maybe).  I just cut the throttle to idle, apply full opposite rudder and push the nose down.  This would save me more often than not.   That said I don't very often get into stalls.  The only time that usually happens to me is when I'm trying to make a stupidly tight turn.  Why I would attempt such a thing in a 190 is a complete mystery to me but sometimes I just do it.

 

As for the idea that you would deliberately stall your aircraft (presumably to force an over-shoot on the guy following) sounds 'desperate' to me to say the least.  I think I did read somewhere that it was supposed to have been done from time to time during the War but I'm left wondering if it really was 'deliberate' or just panic with an happy outcome.   I suspect the latter.  If you are at altitude, why not roll?  If on the other hand you're down near the deck and running low on options, deliberately stalling your aircraft sounds like a damn good way to blow your brains out without using a gun. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by Wulf