German teams... why ?

[Reflected]

I often fly a Heinkel to achieve an objective.

 

the problem is that:

- it takes AGES to get to the safe altitude (maybe airstart for heavies?)

- By the time I reach the target the mission ends with the victory of the Russkies

- I'm usually flying alone, rarely do I get any cover, so often I get wiped out from the sky before reaching the target (and after climbing for 20 minutes)

 

So yeah, it can be really frustrating.

 

Sometimes I fly a 190 but that can do much less damage. The Stuka is just plain death trap alone.

 

Airstart for heavy bombers would certainly be a nice incentive to fly them.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Are there any videos of successful turnfights in 109's? I am clearly doing something wrong. I regularly get 5-9 kills on expert but it certainly does not work when I try and take the reds on at their own game, its all high altitude boom n zoom stuff. Isn't the Macchi supposed to be a great turner?

 

I agree, not enough teamwork and comms on german side. When you ask for info or where help is needed .... deathly silence. I always try and give reports of activity and that often opens up the channels but damn..... you need to work together or else its useless.

 

Wings of Liberty Server seems to work really well with objectives etc.... it is a bit one dimensional but I think it is going in the right direction.

[Brano]

In WoL, the VVS seem to concentrate on a single target. The IL2's and Pe2's work on nailing the targets whilst the fighters swarm around the area at various levels. Now try take a dip in there from 2000m up...... if you come in too fast in a 109, you can't turn at all and all the targets wizz past your view as you come through at 700 kph. OK.... so you reckon you can come in lower and slower.... WRONG..... VVS planes at 1000m or above jump on you like seagulls on a potato chip. Try again, come in from 2000m but from further away and at about 500kph, aaahhhh success, you see targets and are able to turn a bit .... a little bit more ..... get hits.... YES, This is working! Whats that black cloud on my tail? Oh, its only about 6 or 7 yaks bearing down on me while on the radio all I hear is, "Ich bin gewundert!" every 2 or 3 seconds as your LW teammates go down.

 

I don't know but I don't see any other way other than to stay above 3-4000m and try and pick off the odd yak or LA5 thats busy watching the carnage down below, waiting for scraps to jump on. We really need a plane that can turn with the VVS fighters because from what I read, see and  experience myself is that the 109 cannot turn with the reds.

And thats how it was back then.What LW did was exactly picking up those odd planes.Individual scores were going up while whole war on the ground went 6ft under for germans.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

And thats how it was back then.What LW did was exactly picking up those odd planes.Individual scores were going up while whole war on the ground went 6ft under for germans.

 

I think thats why the IL2 was the most produced aircraft in history. The russians adopted its tactics and put a lot of effort into facilitating its effectiveness in winning the ground war.

 

I do still think that for the sake of gameplay (this is a game) we need a plane that can turn on the deck with the russians. Look, maybe I am wrong but everywhere I look the first piece of advice that gets handed out if you are LW is...... don't get into a turnfight..... stay high.... use boom n zoom hit and run tactics. You can't deny this. There are the odd guys that claim to turn quite happily with the yaks of which I have also done with a few inexperienced pilots, but put me into a turnfight with a good yak pilot and I am hanging fruit just waiting to be plucked. I have flown a yak on the deck with 3 LW pilots

 

For the sake of gameplay we may need to have something that can turn with the yaks, else I am just going to park up high and use hit and run tactics regardless of whether the team wins or loses.

Edited August 11, 2015 by DendroAspis

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

damn edit limit.....

 

 

I have flown a yak on the deck with 3 LW pilots trying to nail me, I damaged the one 109 and he ran, I shot down the 190 and the last 109 I managed to damage and he stalled and crashed. OK it was on normal server but I have never been able to do anything remotely similar in a LW plane. I often out have been able to outturn LW but its a completely different story in a 109.

 

You guys that are able to turn with a yak, are you using flaps and how much? I take it you are going vertical?

[TWC_Ace]

In RL 109 could turn with yak and yak pilots surelly couldnt exploit flaps in the way pilots can in the sim....

Edited August 11, 2015 by blackram_

[Feathered_IV]

In RL 109 could turn with yak and yak pilots surelly couldnt exploit flaps in the way pilots can in the sim....

 

Is that all 109's and at all altitudes and all speeds, or are there exceptions?

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I don't believe that people here are able to outturn yaks in a sustained turnfight at low altitude.... if you do claim to do this, please post videos.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

For the sake of gameplay we may need to have something that can turn with the yaks, else I am just going to park up high and use hit and run tactics regardless of whether the team wins or loses.

 

Turnfighting is far to be the only way to fight.

 

For example, i fly the Fw 190 as Jabo mostly, and you know that the 190 turns worse than any fighter in BoS, then why i'm so excited when a russian fighter comes on my tail ? Because a great fight will ensue.

 

https://youtu.be/kF9HGk8avhM?t=3m

[Brano]

Try to search Utube for Mr.Mk.X videos.They are kind of educational,I would say.

 

For the sake of gameplay we may need to have something that can turn with the yaks, else I am just going to park up high and use hit and run tactics regardless of whether the team wins or loses.

Captured Yak maybe?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

I don't believe that people here are able to outturn yaks in a sustained turnfight at low altitude.... if you do claim to do this, please post videos.

 

I have to agree.

 

The 109 as we all know was and is an energy fighter so stay higher than the target, boom it and zoom away. I don't know why some folks think its perfectly acceptable to get on the deck and get into a turning furball with a superior turning aircraft.

 

As many folks have pointed out in the past, in WWII these dogfights in the main lasted just seconds and would not be protracted affairs.

 

I know that may not make for fun simming but isn't always best to fly an aircraft to it's best advantage?

[Brano]

I dont fly Yaks.I do not "exploit" the flaps.I have much of my joy in the cockpit of LaGG-3 and sturmovik.And with MiG-3 available for X-mas....you will not find me in other plane untill Battle of Kuban is released.Then I might switch either to La-5F or P-39 

[J2_Trupobaw]

By reading the thread (my MP was back on RoF recently and now I can't fly at all), it looks like the players who just want to shoot down some stuff universally pick German side (Soviet planes being less straightforward and undergunned, hard to blame it on the surface). With all them on German side, objective-minded players are discouraged from flying as Germans as lot of their teammates are dead weight, driving team inbalance further.

The historical obsession of LW with hoarding individual kills and making celebrities of highest scorers like it was WW1 (glamoured version) made things even worse, here and in the real life.

Bear in mind that to players who just want most kills on scoreboard (or their squadrons to be "best" squadron on scoreboard) the "Soviets win all the maps by objectives" fact is meaningless; map is a hunting ground, player kills the only tracable kind of victory, enemy objectives are meaningless, own objectives are only good as bait and own ground pounders are bait that moves. 

One thing that bugs me, though - what are German squadrons doing? Surely a 5 guys on TS could mount an escorted ground attack mission (or just take 5 jabos that can take care of themselves), hunt the targets where they are, or use TS to camp friendly targets in coordinated fashion? Lone wolf may be climbing to his optimal altitude in belief that if he takes chances, his team will "steal" his kill. But organised groups?

 

[TWC_Ace]

Try to search Utube for Mr.Mk.X videos.They are kind of educational,I would say.

 

Captured Yak maybe?

Just be careful which one you choose, because every third was crappy quality at the BOS timeframe.....Look I like VVS planes, but I would like to see obvious fixed soon. At least stuff which can be modelled in the sim. As most of us.

Edited August 11, 2015 by blackram_

[Brano]

Misquote maybe? Otherwise I do not get what you are refering to

[Reflected]

Turnfighting is far to be the only way to fight.

 

For example, i fly the Fw 190 as Jabo mostly, and you know that the 190 turns worse than any fighter in BoS, then why i'm so excited when a russian fighter comes on my tail ? Because a great fight will ensue.

 

https://youtu.be/kF9HGk8avhM?t=3m

 

I'm really curious, as I also fly the 190 as Jabo: What do you do? It turns worse, it climbs worse, and it's slower. How can you survive being attacked?

[TP_Jacko]

Turnfighting is far to be the only way to fight.

 

For example, i fly the Fw 190 as Jabo mostly, and you know that the 190 turns worse than any fighter in BoS, then why i'm so excited when a russian fighter comes on my tail ? Because a great fight will ensue.

 

https://youtu.be/kF9HGk8avhM?t=3m

 

 

Very nice video action Ze-Hairy, looking at the lead shooting you are obviously very experienced. Do you think the Yak in the first part lost sight of you he must be kicking himself for sliding out in front.

If you have more like that do post them eh

Cheers

Jacko

[FTC_Etherlight]

I think Hairy's video shows it very well, you use the 190's very capable roll rate to engage in rolling or flat scissors and barrel-roll maneuvers and pray to god that the Yak is can be lured into an overshoot situation. That's not a guarantee though, cause I would argue that an experienced Yak pilot would abort the engagement by pulling up or pulling a sharp turn to reset the engagement.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Turnfighting is far to be the only way to fight.

 

For example, i fly the Fw 190 as Jabo mostly, and you know that the 190 turns worse than any fighter in BoS, then why i'm so excited when a russian fighter comes on my tail ? Because a great fight will ensue.

 

https://youtu.be/kF9HGk8avhM?t=3m

 

Now thats what I am talking about! Great flying! Were they both yaks? One looked like a LA5, I must go look again.

 

 

Try to search Utube for Mr.Mk.X videos.They are kind of educational,I would say.

 

Captured Yak maybe?

 

 

MK MrX is a killer, so is SYN_GD. I fly with him on TS a bit so I must ask him because he is one of the best.

 

I thought about captured yak but how would we easily ID a friendly, it could get a bit messy.... . Macchi??

[SYN_Ricky]

Turnfighting is far to be the only way to fight.

 

For example, i fly the Fw 190 as Jabo mostly, and you know that the 190 turns worse than any fighter in BoS, then why i'm so excited when a russian fighter comes on my tail ? Because a great fight will ensue.

 

https://youtu.be/kF9HGk8avhM?t=3m

 

Nice video! I haven't flown for quite some time and went online yesterday for a small jabo flight in a 190. I noticed something similar to what I see in your video, i.e. there's some kind of graphical glitch that makes it look like there's smoke rising in front of your canopy all the time, is that a known issue? Thanks and sorry for getting OT.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

I'm really curious, as I also fly the 190 as Jabo: What do you do? It turns worse, it climbs worse, and it's slower. How can you survive being attacked?

 

The Fw 190 climbs worse above 2000m, not below (coz underperforming), and it is not slower at all, the ETC 501 does not anymore eats you ~40km/h at full power but less than 15km/h, since it is fixed.

 

Very nice video action Ze-Hairy, looking at the lead shooting you are obviously very experienced. Do you think the Yak in the first part lost sight of you he must be kicking himself for sliding out in front.

If you have more like that do post them eh

Cheers

Jacko

 

Thanks Jacko, if you're talking about the LaGG-3 then yes i think he lost sight of me for a second.

 

Would like to upload more stuff, but i'm limited with my old PC...

 

Nice video! I haven't flown for quite some time and went online yesterday for a small jabo flight in a 190. I noticed something similar to what I see in your video, i.e. there's some kind of graphical glitch that makes it look like there's smoke rising in front of your canopy all the time, is that a known issue? Thanks and sorry for getting OT.

 

Bug, ground reflections on the front glass, we talked about this issue on another topic.

[Brano]

I thought about captured yak but how would we easily ID a friendly, it could get a bit messy.... . Macchi??

Paint the nose yellow and put some balkenkreuz here and there

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Maybe yellow tailfeathers too for when you sneak up on what you think is an enemy...

[KoN_]

IMHO ..you are asking German pilots to go down low where they are most vulnerable , JABO is unescorted alone and slow , even the 190 has a hard time extending away  . And getting into a  fight down low is a no win . Maybe the German pilots know this  .

After all you have fast VVS aircraft at low altitude .  Most of the action is down low . 

[TWC_Ace]

IMHO ..you are asking German pilots to go down low where they are most vulnerable , JABO is unescorted alone and slow , even the 190 has a hard time extending away  . And getting into a  fight down low is a no win . Maybe the German pilots know this  .

After all you have fast VVS aircraft at low altitude .  Most of the action is down low . 

Not to mention the mentality of most sim pilots, not caring about their virtual life. I was on jabo mission and drop my 250 bomb (dived from the clouds) on enemy target (hitting multi targets), right on the spot. I did it after fast dive so I had enough energy to quickly escape. However an usual "mentality" chased me in his Yak all the way to our base. I started with my landing intentionally, knowing this will slow me down and that he could catch me, just to see if he would be so crazy to sacrifice his own (this virtual - hence the problem) life just to "get me". Ofcourse he did just that (which woudnt happen in RL) but didnt kill me, just damaged my plane and I landed. He was later blown to pieces by our 109s fighting with him over our base. Amazing isnt it?

Edited August 12, 2015 by blackram_

[Dr_Molenbeek]

IMHO ..you are asking German pilots to go down low where they are most vulnerable , JABO is unescorted alone and slow , even the 190 has a hard time extending away  . And getting into a  fight down low is a no win . Maybe the German pilots know this  .

After all you have fast VVS aircraft at low altitude .  Most of the action is down low . 

 

There's nothing better than to be swarmed by enemy fighters when you're doing ground attack in your Fw 190, imo.

 

Most of bandits that i shot down were on my tail before they die.

 

Yes it's not as easy than it should to reverse situation because of some obvious FM issues, but it is still possible, yes.

 

I just can't understand how "fun" it is to stay at 7000-8000m, dive every 20 minutes on a poor russian fighter that was lost, then climb again to the stratosphere... sure, you're helping your team when doing that)))))))

[SR-F_Winger]

Not to mention the mentality of most sim pilots, not caring about their virtual life. I was on jabo mission and drop my 250 bomb (dived from the clouds) on enemy target (hitting multi targets), right on the spot. I did it after fast dive so I had enough energy to quickly escape. However an usual "mentality" chased me in his Yak all the way to our base. I started with my landing intentionally, knowing this will slow me down and that he could catch me, just to see if he would be so crazy to sacrifice his own (this virtual - hence the problem) life just to "get me". Ofcourse he did just that (which woudnt happen in RL) but didnt kill me, just damaged my plane and I landed. He was later blown to pieces by our 109s fighting with him over our base. Amazing isnt it?

Try that over a russian airport. Youll be blown to pieces by the flak in a matter of seconds:)

[L3Pl4K]

Hey Hairy..  i am flying stuka and heinkel... and help the Luftwaffe against the soviet infestation. Maybe...today.

[AbortedMan]

The same reason they are all complaining about the 109 and 190 not being superior in every way to all Russian fighters, because that's all they do.

 

Seriously, the hot topic amongst LuftWaffe virtual pilots is chivalry and that's because they all see themselves as Hartmann or Marseille - virtual knights of the sky after reading about the exploits of the great noble air aces defending(?) their homeland.

 

It's rare to even see the bases on the German side that are closed because they require the He111 supply runs to be done and apparently even that isn't worth a short break from being a great LuftWaffe fighter pilot.

 

I'm sure I'll get some replies from the few that take up a Stuka or a 111 - even a bomb laden Fw-190, which was their primary role on the Eastern Front is extremely rare, but the proof is already there as you've just posted. I see it all the time, it's very rare to come across a LuftWaffe bomber - even the supply He111s to open up bases, even ones closer to the front lines and that's because the fantasy of being a chivalrous LuftWaffe knight of the sky.

 

What's wrong with only liking fighters? I don't find ground pounding interesting at all but do love a good team v team fight if you can get it.

This is one of the main reasons why I basically stopped creating/updating missions for MP servers. No use in creating intricate scenarios outlining historical milestones of the eastern war when everyone will just be playing airquake with no endgame purpose anyway.

 

The sad thing is, if people started playing the objective on any mission they'd realize that the action they're looking for would be 100x more centralized, tense, and of higher quality than just meandering over to the enemy airfield looking for fighters.

[Y-29.Silky]

Are there any videos of successful turnfights in 109's?

 

That's actually the time I enjoy the 109 the most! Of course you have to enter with the energy advantage, if he starts to out turn you, which he eventually will (especially with his helicopter flaps), just climb a little outside of his turn and you'll re-gain energy/speed to stay in the turn fight or even better, a low yo-yo for a nice snap shot. Though I must point out the obvious, this does not include the G-2. But in the end the Yak and 109F are so close, who comes out of that turn fight alive will depend on the pilot (that doesn't mean the 109 breaks off while the Yak chases him for 10 minutes). It's really enjoyable and I HIGHLY recommend 109 pilots to try it. And no I'm not trolling.

 

IMHO ..you are asking German pilots to go down low where they are most vulnerable , JABO is unescorted alone and slow , even the 190 has a hard time extending away  . And getting into a  fight down low is a no win . Maybe the German pilots know this  .

After all you have fast VVS aircraft at low altitude .  Most of the action is down low . 

 

In real life, they were forced to come down where the IL-2's were. You cannot defend your objectives flying at 7000m.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

This is one of the main reasons why I basically stopped creating/updating missions for MP servers. No use in creating intricate scenarios outlining historical milestones of the eastern war when everyone will just be playing airquake with no endgame purpose anyway.

 

The sad thing is, if people started playing the objective on any mission they'd realize that the action they're looking for would be 100x more centralized, tense, and of higher quality than just meandering over to the enemy airfield looking for fighters.

 

 

Well not everyone wants to drop bombs, it's nothing to do with air quake....we've regularly flown missions that last for an hour and we RTB with red lights after no kills because we are flying OUR mission in a historical and realistic way. The problem is not your mission, the problem is we're forced to fly our way on a server designed for someone else's mission design and worse still on a server than the rest of the people don't seem to care about anything other than racking up kills in a furball. If we had the old IL2 co-op stuff we wouldn't fly DF servers at all but the people that do fly on them will do their own thing regardless of what the mission designer wants and that is why DF servers don't attract people like me, if people were all on comms and had a proper plan etc it might be different but people dont want to wait 30 minutes for the next wave off attacks to form up and do the job properly, they just hit fly and get in to the air for instant action.

 

DBS Tip started running co-ops this year which are brilliant but are not at a good time for US players, it would be better spending time working on more of these and bringing more guys across from DF to Co-Op to see how much fun can be had with real team play. That was what made IL2 so successful, it's what everyone loved and yet we only have one co-op a week to be involved in.

[Willy__]

Emil sums up perfectly the problem, You dont even need comms to fly together. Last days I've been flying bombers for a change (got bored of the fighters) and look up what we managed to do: form up in a pe2 formation, with a Yak escort, went to the target bombed, got bounced and we managed to fend off 109s and 190s. Then someone come saying "Yeah but you fly russian!", the very same day I found some people flying stukas, we took off in a schwarm of 4, first we bombed the russian arty, after rtb for rearm we went to the tanks. It all comes down to the players, and you can force them to play the way you want to.

 

Anyways, I'll just leave this video here.... 

 

[AbortedMan]

Well not everyone wants to drop bombs, it's nothing to do with air quake....

Dogfighting in a fighter and dropping bombs are not the only roles to play in this game.

 

Unarmed recon/search for ground targets, bomber escort, ground attack, spotting for artillery strikes, AAA suppression for ground attack, medical evacuation, and base resupply are all variations on gameplay that can make a huge difference...and they're all implemented in MP missions that have been created.

 

Even directing the airquake lemmings to a centralized location or transit lane that resembles some interest of the a force moving toward the objective can get the server adrenaline pumping if just 1-2 people are actively trying to hit a ground objective or resupply in the same area. Of course 32 people not in communication with each other aren't going to get much done in the ways of teamwork and cohesion, but if you orchestrate it just right and nudge people in the right direction, with the influence of the tools available to mission creators, interest in completing an objective more often than not happens naturally.

 

The thing that surprises me the most is why Wings of Liberty came about to be the most popular server...their missions don't even lend themselves to easy airquake scenarios (very large areas of playspace = long time sweeping/searching for opponents) meanwhile they seem to fall a bit flat (imho, no offense) when it comes to objectives (in the scope of possible objectives and gameplay mechanics that are possible in this game). If people are literally only on that server because they refuse to play with anything higher than a 30ms ping, then I think I can assume they're also the kind of people that will do anything to get an edge to just win a dogfight, rather than play a sim in the spirit of a sim...so the effort of all the aforementioned is moot...which again brings me to the point of if people just focused on the planned objectives, whether that be dropping bombs or escorting said bomb-droppers, their preferred "dogfight everything that moves" scenario would be exponentially more interesting and meaningful. Something, something, can't see forest for trees, something, something, yadda, yadda.

[Brano]

Amen Aborted man.I dont understand WoL recent popularity boom at all.

[Willy__]

I dont know why, but I think the fact that you can see your own plane on the map is one of the main reasons WOL is popular. Few months ago the usual choice of expert server was either DED Expert (which didnt have the "gps" thingy) and WoL.

[von_Tom]

I really don't understand the fuss. If you want to stay low and pick off enemy fighters, go VVS. Ground attack - VVS or FW190s for Jabo but you have to be smart to survive. If you want to cruise fast and high and do fast slashing attacks, go 109/190 but make sure to take a friend or 3.

 

High altitude bombing - forget it because of the time to climb to altitude and the vulnerability if you're unescorted.

 

If you want to engage in low down turn fights in a 109 or 190 then you will be shot down a lot unless you're in a team. Even then it's a race to see who gets who first.

 

We don't need a "balanced" planeset or anything that lets the LW fight down low or the VVS up high. This is a sim (yes yes it's a game) so let it simulate the aircraft and the then planeset accurately.

 

And a nod in the direction of JG5 as it's nice to see them doing it right (as I see it).

 

von Tom

 

ps To server admins, if you want to control a server to force historical gameplay then run the servers on a signup basis so you only have squads acting in concert. Otherwise you'll get a mix of folks simulating WWII combat and some playing airquake. Neither is better than the other but they often don't gel.

Edited August 13, 2015 by von_Tom

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Emil sums up perfectly the problem, You dont even need comms to fly together. Last days I've been flying bombers for a change (got bored of the fighters) and look up what we managed to do: form up in a pe2 formation, with a Yak escort, went to the target bombed, got bounced and we managed to fend off 109s and 190s. Then someone come saying "Yeah but you fly russian!", the very same day I found some people flying stukas, we took off in a schwarm of 4, first we bombed the russian arty, after rtb for rearm we went to the tanks. It all comes down to the players, and you can force them to play the way you want to.

 

Anyways, I'll just leave this video here.... 

 

 

Great video, I love watching team/squad take offs especially

[xvii-Dietrich]

{...} It's rare to even see the bases on the German side that are closed because they require the He111 supply runs to be done and apparently even that isn't worth a short break from being a great LuftWaffe fighter pilot.t the proof is already there as you've just posted. I see it all the time, it's very rare to come across a LuftWaffe bomber - even the supply He111s to open up bases {...}

 

I am a He111 pilot^*. Principally, I'm interested in recon, but transport and bombing are also very appealing.

 

This is the first I've ever seen anything about the "He111 supply runs". Where can I find out about them? Is there any description of mission tasks I can read up on? (I've had a hard time trying to find out information for this sim, so any suggestions/help would be really appreciated!) Thanks.

 

 

^* actually, I'm more interested in the Ju 88, but I'm flying the He 111 for training while waiting for IL-2:BoM  :-)

[Brano]

They are available at Syndicate Full Realism server.But it is has not been much populated lately.

[AbortedMan]

 

I am a He111 pilot^*. Principally, I'm interested in recon, but transport and bombing are also very appealing.

 

This is the first I've ever seen anything about the "He111 supply runs". Where can I find out about them? Is there any description of mission tasks I can read up on? (I've had a hard time trying to find out information for this sim, so any suggestions/help would be really appreciated!) Thanks.

 

 

^* actually, I'm more interested in the Ju 88, but I'm flying the He 111 for training while waiting for IL-2:BoM  :-)

They're also available on the Eagle's Nest server as well as a medevac mission which involves He-111 transports ferrying wounded troops out of the pocket...

https://youtu.be/vynvXgU7REI?t=52