German teams... why ?

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The great majority of my sessions ends by a russian victory, simply because they play the objectives, while 3/4 and more of the german team are in 109s at 7000m altitude, looking for russian fighters...

 

It's so nice to see an ally to come help you complete an objective, but why it happens so rarely in german teams while you can see swarms of russian planes attacking a ground position ?

 

 

That is what happens almost every time.

[FuriousMeow]

The same reason they are all complaining about the 109 and 190 not being superior in every way to all Russian fighters, because that's all they do.

 

Seriously, the hot topic amongst LuftWaffe virtual pilots is chivalry and that's because they all see themselves as Hartmann or Marseille - virtual knights of the sky after reading about the exploits of the great noble air aces defending(?) their homeland.

 

It's rare to even see the bases on the German side that are closed because they require the He111 supply runs to be done and apparently even that isn't worth a short break from being a great LuftWaffe fighter pilot.

 

I'm sure I'll get some replies from the few that take up a Stuka or a 111 - even a bomb laden Fw-190, which was their primary role on the Eastern Front is extremely rare, but the proof is already there as you've just posted. I see it all the time, it's very rare to come across a LuftWaffe bomber - even the supply He111s to open up bases, even ones closer to the front lines and that's because the fantasy of being a chivalrous LuftWaffe knight of the sky.

Edited August 9, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[SharpeXB]

while 3/4 and more of the german team are in 109s at 7000m altitude, looking for russian fighters...

 

This. As if a Russian fighter is going to play suicide match and go up there. So they just fly around in circles up high making contrails.

[BeastyBaiter]

I've had the same experience. There are a few regular LW ground pounders but the vast majority stick to 109's at 5km+. There are a few reasons for this but it mostly boils down to the Bf-109 is BoS's newbie plane. It's easy to fly, easy to do well in and hard to get shot down in. That in turn makes it the favorite among new pilots seeking air kills and older ones who want to stat pad for il2.info. Factor in a healthy dose of German super pilot movies/books/wikipedia pages and the result is obvious. Most people fly German to shoot down planes and only shoot down planes. Everyone else does a mix of stuff, which happens to include blowing stuff up on the ground from time to time. And those who would like to blow some stuff up on the ground with German planes often find themselves waiting in line for some of those air to air only guys to free up a slot.

 

Edit: I should point out the Fw-190A3 is my favorite plane in BoS atm but you will rarely see me fly it in MP. The reason? The waiting list to play German and the fact that I know if I go for a ground target in it I will be the only one to go for a ground target and will have cover while doing so.

Edited August 9, 2015 by King_Hrothgar

[[CPT]milopugdog]

I'll always join whatever team needs balance, and in a month or so I've only had the opportunity to escort one Ju-87 and He-111. I've never been escorted as one either.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

What's wrong with only liking fighters? I don't find ground pounding interesting at all but do love a good team v team fight if you can get it.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

The reasons above sound good to me.

 

I would add this :

 

Compared to the German planes that are radically different from each other, I see the russian plane like a more homogeneous bunch of warbird (maybe I'm wrong, I neverfly them)

The Pe2 is a rather fast bomber that can do well at low altitudes, and the Il2 despite his slower speed have good protection and a fun variety of bombs, rocket and canons. Russian fighters are slower than their german counterpart and do well fighting at low altitude (and can do well at higher alt with a good pilot). All operate rather low, and even if its not coordinated at all, fighters are usually never far from their attack planes, giving them a minimum cover. 

 

Look at the german side, we have my beloved He111, slower than the Pe2, and the Ju87, even slower and rather fragile. On the other hand, the 109s and 190 are powerful machines with high cruising speed and altitudes. In MP, contrary to the whole Russian side that operate at medium/low level as a bunch, german fighters don't bother to wave their way behind attack aircraft, or wait for the bombers to reach their operating altitude for level bombing. If I'm not playing with with my squad mates, I usually end up going alone on a bomb run, 1/3 of the time being shot down during the climb by a roaming yak. I can't even remember a single match where I got my butt saved by a friendly fighter. 

 

Go attack a strafing IL2, count 30sec and there is a great chance that you will see a yak in your six. Intercept a german attack plane, well, enjoy.

In these conditions, I understand that people who like sometimes drop a few bombs in german planes never do it in MP.

Edited August 9, 2015 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Sokol1]

Factor in a healthy dose of German super pilot movies/books/wikipedia pages and the result is obvious. .

 

And why all this complain about Luftwaffe planes don't be (in any sim) the "Uber/OP" planes that they "should",

after all Hartmann had 300+ kills.

 

So the "New'Newbie" thinks he should become a virtual ace in a flight, if not is a "bias" case. 

[Jason_Williams]

Ah the difference between fighting a real war a computer simulation. It's always going to be hard to get players to fly and fight as if your life and that of your nation is on the line.

 

 

Jason

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I gave up taking my Stuka out for ground attack missions due to various reasons. It takes quite a lot time on most servers to take off from a safe airfield and navigate to your target. Most of the time I lack fighter support, get server kicked or the match is over before I even manage to bring my ordinance to the taregt area.

 

With more teamplay it would be more pleasurble to fly ground attack missions, currently it's plainly frustrating having to fear to encounter enemy fighters any time and all alone or getting kicked from the server any second.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[[KWN]T-oddball]

The great majority of my sessions ends by a russian victory, simply because they play the objectives, while 3/4 and more of the german team are in 109s at 7000m altitude, looking for russian fighters...

 

It's so nice to see an ally to come help you complete an objective, but why it happens so rarely in german teams while you can see swarms of russian planes attacking a ground position ?

 

 

That is what happens almost every time.

 

 

I suggest you get with a group or ask over TS or chat for some help or you can try find some organized events that have a mission with assigned roles.

[gx007]

When the bf110 arrives, and can be included in BoS, then German ground attack should be more common. 

 

This was the case for me in '46. I flew stuka then was much more successful in 110. 

[von_Tom]

 

Group jabo runs is where it's at for me in the LW. That or staggered defence of the stuff the VVS is trying to get. Must say though I get bored going too high.

 

And I've had a number of friendlies save me whilst I've been looking down for IL2s and Pe2s.

 

In many respects it'd be better to have attack/defend maps or smaller maps to condense the action. On the other hand, sandbox environments can be great but only for squad pilots flying together to achieve chosen objectives.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the wins/losses scores. You're not getting money out of playing so just play for yourself. And if I'm about (rare at the mo) I'll happily escort a slow target. I mean He111 or Ju87. It's best for them to jabo in a FW or 109 though.

 

von Tom

[TWC_Ace]

This. As if a Russian fighter is going to play suicide match and go up there. So they just fly around in circles up high making contrails.

Who would blame them really? Are you ready to dance down low with Yak with its combat flappsing exploit?

Edited August 9, 2015 by blackram_

[coconut]

The Russians have the IL-2 going for them. Personally, I enjoying flying it a lot more than the Stuka. I don't remember the last time I landed a Stuka. The few times the enemy doesn't get me, I'll usually mess up my engine management and kill the engine before I get back home.

The IL-2, on the other hand, is robust, easy to fly and well armed.

[Matt]

I think all Soviet planes are better suited for gound attack (attacking multiple small targets on the ground) than their German counterparts, except maybe the La-5 compared to the Fw 190. The He 111 is just too massive and the Ju 87 is a death trap and in both planes, it will take you more time to reach the target than in the Pe-2 or Il-2.

 

It will probably be reversed when the Bf 110 and Ju 88 arrive, both are new and well suited for that, so they will surely attract a number of pilots who are currently flying Pe-2 and Il-2. I like ground attack / bombing generally, but i don't think i've flown the Stuka this year yet and the He 111 probably less than a handful of times, while i love flying the Pe-2 and to a lesser degree, the Il-2. I'm looking forward to the Ju 88 and Bf 110 more than all other BoM planes, with the exception of the P-40.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

The main thing that I always wonder is the modifications. Will the Bf-110 just get bombs? What will the Ju-88 get? Part of my success with the Russian attackers is the variety of weapons you can mount on them.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The variant we're going to see ingame is the Bf110 E, a bomber variant with increased bombload (1200kg). Don't know what kind of Rüstsätze were fitted to this specific type but there have been modifications of 110s with a single 37mm or 30mm Mk.101 gunpod. If I'm not mistaken there were also 2x 20mm or 4x 7,92mm pods.

 

Either way it's going to be a great attack aircraft filling the gap between the highly specilized Stuka and more strategicly used He-111.

 

With 2 engines and better frontward armarment you don't feel as vulnerable as a Stuka and uncapeable as a He 111 in combat which should assure increased interest in this aircraft.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[71st_AH_Hooves]

ITs funny you mention this, Myself and the TWB folks, were rocking German mud movers and we were the ONLY ones trying.  We ended up getting the Airfield obj.  but all got smoked at the resulting fight.  We then took Stuka's again to hit their tanks.  5 Stukas and NO one would escort us.  So as we got to where the tanks start, we got crushed by a PE-2 and 2 IL2's. 

 

The rest of our team was off looking for fights no where near the objectives.  Now I think thats a good plan to intercept them before they get to the target, but this wasn't that.  Our fighters were scattered everywhere but the incoming routes to the targets. 

 

Such is life I guess, and a little insight into why they lost the WAR.  Too worried about racking up kills, whilst their ground brethren got faces full of lead, from IL2s.

[Cybermat47]

I've noticed this too.

 

But it's not just the Germans. Literally every plane, including the Russians, are fighters. Well, at least when I'm playing.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Ze-Hairy I know what you are saying.  Part of the problem may be the German bomber plane selection (already mention above).  I love flying both the Ju-87 and He-111 but I think many find the 87 too vulnerable or the 111 too difficult to do level bombing 

 

I fly both fighter and bombers for both sides, mainly in Wings of Liberty.  Today I spawned into a Ju-87.  Once in there were two loaded He-111s taxiing and taking off which later hit many targets so it does happen.

 

The Ju-88 and Me-110 may spice things up a little when they come out.

[FTC_Etherlight]

There are many good and solid reasons stated above that explain this behaviour, in short I think the balance of the metagame is directly responsible for this.

 

The Russians are obviously better suited for Groundattack, because with the Il-2 you just get more bang for your buck in terms of efficiency than in a StuKa (which I ironically enjoy much more). Yes, the Heinkel got a bigger bomb load, but it's sluggish, slow and gets instantly crapped on if it does not climb quite high to avoid the low-altitude piranha swarms which basically makes it a less efficient alternative, since a low and fast Pe-2 that's speeding below the 109s at 7k altitude can complete 2-3 bomb runs in the timeframe a Heinkel needs to get a solid bombing run going that has a good chance of being successful.

 

On the other hand the Germans are obviously better suited for the pure fighter role. Yes, the Yaks flaps are broken, but that does not keep a 109 from dictating every engagement and being a generally superior plane in most aspects of combat.

 

This obviously leads to fighter jocks flocking to the "stronger" Germans and groundpounders flocking to the "more efficient" Russians, since most people tend to choose the aircraft that's best at the things they wanna do. This does not mean that a good and organized Flock of Yaks cannot be successful against 109s scratching the edge of space or He-111's which would actually be escorted and protected to deliver their heavier payload to the objectives absolutely destroying the mission objectives, but most people are not organized in larger groups, and about 70% of people do not give a single shit about bombers or stukas asking for cover, since "but muh altitude and kill/death ratio, bruh!", which leads us back to the most basic question: "Which plane will be more effective in going in there on my own and doing the stuff I wanna do?". Well, the answer is stated above I think.

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

More often than not I fly ground-attack missions but I find it very hard to spot the ground targets unless they are very obvious like trains or airbases. On the WoL server some of the Soviet ground targets are so well hidden as to be virtually impossible to see. The fact that the briefings are in Russian (at least on my setup), doesn't help either, I'm forced to go by the map icons only and that can make things a bit vague.

 

The 190 is a pretty effective ground-pounder and gives you at least a ghost of surviving the dearth of escorts on the LW side.

 

Good hunting,

Conky

Edited August 10, 2015 by CFC_Conky

[BraveSirRobin]

I think this will change when the 110 and 88 are introduced.

[Brano]

I think this will change when the 110 and 88 are introduced.

I think it will not

[TP_Jacko]

Suka vulnerable  wonder what this man would have to say about that 

 

If I read the messages correctly is there a desire to see maps more balanced for ground attack even to restrict the plan set or would that server be a ghost town. I would be happy to fly with a group of stukas in the AT role on comms 

Edited August 10, 2015 by TP_Jacko

[BlitzPig_EL]

Rudel wasn't flying a video game.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Suka vulnerable  wonder what this man would have to say about that 

It is slow and very unmanouvreble with ordinance. Furthermore it's very prone to engine damage/fires ingame (usually I ´have to crashland due to burning or broken engine). So yes it's quite vulnerable if not used in bigger formations and/or fighter cover.

 

Usually I stick to dive bombing because most servers only use KV-1s which are a pain to penetrate and damage with the Bk.37. Once you drop your bombs and recover you're basicly defenseless against incoming attacks like it was in reality.

That's not the case with a Schlachtflugzeug like the Bf110 and IL-2 where you rather use shallow dive passes on your targets and have plenty of room to manouvre.

[Brano]

Stuka is quite nimble and can outturn most of fighters on slow speeds.It also climbs quite well.It can carry the same if not higher bombload then sturmovik or peshka.When cought alone by zooming fighter,it is as vulnerable as sturmovik or peshka.It is just that jagdflieger experten fever thing mentioned in first post that keep most of LW pilots away from flying it.There is simply no glory there.Mostly you will be labeled as "weirdo" or "masochist" by your uberjagdflieger comrades

[Wulf]

It is slow and very unmanouvreble with ordinance. Furthermore it's very prone to engine damage/fires ingame (usually I ´have to crashland due to burning or broken engine). So yes it's quite vulnerable if not used in bigger formations and/or fighter cover.

 

Usually I stick to dive bombing because most servers only use KV-1s which are a pain to penetrate and damage with the Bk.37. Once you drop your bombs and recover you're basicly defenseless against incoming attacks like it was in reality.

That's not the case with a Schlachtflugzeug like the Bf110 and IL-2 where you rather use shallow dive passes on your targets and have plenty of room to manouvre.

-

 

I think it's just a matter of degree.  Yes, a 110 shouldn't be 'as vulnerable' as an unescorted Stuka but, I suspect you're still going to be cut to bits by single engined fighters.  If a 190 would have a tough time in a low level strike role (and it does)  a 110 will have no show. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Wulf

[Brano]

I promise next time I log in to MP,I will take stuka for a ride.I must admit that I've been neglecting this poor birdy a lot recently 

[Livai]

I say this short: All fly VVS fighter because I can attach bombs without extra weight. If I do this with German fighter planes I have extra weight after I dropped my bombs. A huge advantage for VVS. The Pe-2 and the IL-2 are much better than He-111 or Stuka. A next advantage for VVS. VVS is with the current plane set better to fly ground-attack missions.

 

 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Stuka is quite nimble and can outturn most of fighters on slow speeds.It also climbs quite well.It can carry the same if not higher bombload then sturmovik or peshka.When cought alone by zooming fighter,it is as vulnerable as sturmovik or peshka.It is just that jagdflieger experten fever thing mentioned in first post that keep most of LW pilots away from flying it.There is simply no glory there.Mostly you will be labeled as "weirdo" or "masochist" by your uberjagdflieger comrades

I wonder where that impression comes from but that's certainly not the case. With the Überlast (1800 kg bomb) you must not take more than half fuel or you'll have a hard time trying to even take off. It's a limited advantage.

Also it's way more prone to engine damage than the Sturmovik. Later does take damage but often the engine keeps running long enought to bring you back home safely while in the Stuka it's a certain death sentence.

It does turn better than most fighters indeed....for like 2 turns at max speed. That's less of an advantage but more a nessecity to be able to disengage enemy fighters.

 

If you fly the Stuka properly, means climb at high altitude, fly along safe (not direct) attack routes and plan your attack carefully, it will take lots of time. It can be fun with numberous people flying together in a Schwarm but does have little attraction if you fly solo.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Brano]

If you fly the Stuka properly, means climb at high altitude, fly along safe (not direct) attack routes and plan your attack carefully, it will take lots of time. It can be fun with numberous people flying together in a Schwarm but does have little attraction if you fly solo.

...and thats why you will be labeled "weirdo" or "masochist" by your Jagdflieger buddies

Nimble = when bombs are allready gone.I dont try to evade fighter attacks with full bombload. Well,Satan is an extreme example,least to say.I usually take SC250 and pairs of SC75s,which was the standard bombload.

When flying sturmovik,I take 4xFAB100 as standard.I do not overload the machine just to have few more bombs onboard,sacrificing the performance badly.And when cought by messer or fw,I am usually dead or at least heavily wounded with smokin mikulin after one pass.If the LW guy knows how to shoot.If he is miserable shooter,I have a chance to survive the first pass only to be molested by second,third,fourth or fifth messer in the waiting queue

[[GOAT]Spoutpout]

Unfortunately, it seems this is not a myth...

Ze_Hairy and me played one full round as russians. We took bombs on our fighters to attack some arty, and, something marvelous happened: we weren't alone to attack ! Il-2s everywhere, with of course some others fighters to escort them or help them to do the job on the ground.

 

We destroyed all objectives in 1h30.

The last one was mainly attacked by Ze_Hairy in Il-2, with 4 or 5 other Il-2, while I stayed in LaGG-3 to drop my bombs and cover them with other fighters.

 

Of course, none of our objectives were destroyed by the german team, even if both teams were numerically balanced.

[Cybermat47]

Suka vulnerable  wonder what this man would have to say about that 

 

"I want my leg back."

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

In WoL, the VVS seem to concentrate on a single target. The IL2's and Pe2's work on nailing the targets whilst the fighters swarm around the area at various levels. Now try take a dip in there from 2000m up...... if you come in too fast in a 109, you can't turn at all and all the targets wizz past your view as you come through at 700 kph. OK.... so you reckon you can come in lower and slower.... WRONG..... VVS planes at 1000m or above jump on you like seagulls on a potato chip. Try again, come in from 2000m but from further away and at about 500kph, aaahhhh success, you see targets and are able to turn a bit .... a little bit more ..... get hits.... YES, This is working! Whats that black cloud on my tail? Oh, its only about 6 or 7 yaks bearing down on me while on the radio all I hear is, "Ich bin gewundert!" every 2 or 3 seconds as your LW teammates go down.

 

I don't know but I don't see any other way other than to stay above 3-4000m and try and pick off the odd yak or LA5 thats busy watching the carnage down below, waiting for scraps to jump on. We really need a plane that can turn with the VVS fighters because from what I read, see and  experience myself is that the 109 cannot turn with the reds.

Edited August 11, 2015 by DendroAspis

[I/JG27_Rollo]

That rather sounds as if the VVS got their tactics and coordination for that situation right.

 

I think Luftwaffe pilots already have good enough machines at their disposal. They don't need a fighter that can turn with the reds, they need to stop dripping in plane by plane every minute and instead get there in force and with the same level of coordination.

[Guest deleted@50488]

The F4 turns just great for me.

 

I can come from 3000m, but as I approach the swarm of VVS fighters, I can actually manage my power carefully and engage in some successful turning dogfights. 

 

The F4, climbing at it's best climb speed and 1,3 ATA is also good escaping Russian fighters.

 

Of course, this sort of tactics should involve at least two players working together. A wingman can make a big difference.  Using TS and not just text, is also mandatory.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

The lone Stuka is pretty much a sitting duck. The problem with half the servers is that level bombing rarely takes place, particularly in the 111. By the time you have taken off and reached sufficient altitude the round is over.

 

The mad low level scramble to the bombing objective (which is what happens 95% of the time) makes jumping in energy fighters seem fairly redundant at times. This is especially so on servers where we have the "mad" on the deck rush because the round is normally over in 20 minutes.