High speed bombers

[JtD]

I'm wondering...

 

In the history of aviation up to 1945, which multi engined bombers were faster when in service than all fighters currently in service in a) that air force and b) any air force?

 

For speed figures, the bomber should be considered with some bomb load, the engine settings for both fighter and bomber should allow some time at that setting and not just 5 minutes or less and the different altitudes should be considered. If you have a candidate, could you please give the contemporary fighters they'd be competing with?

 

I'm pretty sure the Bristol Blenheim qualifies for a) at least, but since I don't have access to my sources, I'm not even sure about that. What was the fastest fighter already in service with the RAF when the Blenheim entered service?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I think the Arado 234 was a few months earlier in service than the Me 262 although only as a reconissence aircraft. It was one of the very first Luftwaffe aircraft to fly recon missions over the occopied Normandy in 1944.

 

The Do-17E and SB 2 possibly also qualify for a), I'm not too sure about that though.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[LukeFF]

 

 

The Do-17E and SB 2 possibly also qualify for a), I'm not too sure about that though.

 

SB, not SB 2. The latter is a mistake propagated by the old IL2 series.  

[Ace_Pilto]

The first stop in the high speed bomber history book has to be the DeHavilland Mosquito, It would have been faster than some fighters but I couldn't rattle them off for you. Another is the Ju-88S, a nitrous oxide boosted version of the Ju-88.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The only one I am aware of, other than some minor specialized marks, is the Mosquito and even that was only for a couple of years. Single engined fighters eventually overtook the Mossie for speed as well.

Edited August 7, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The first stop in the high speed bomber history book has to be the DeHavilland Mosquito, It would have been faster than some fighters but I couldn't rattle them off for you. Another is the Ju-88S, a nitrous oxide boosted version of the Ju-88.

The Ju 88S appeared in 1942 first though when 109Fs, Gs and Fw 190 As were standard fighters. It wasn't faster than those for sure but quite fast indeed.

 

The Do 17 E on the other hand (initially designed as a "Schnellbomber") served in the spanish civil war along He 51s and other biplanes. Together with the He 111 it was a very fast and formidable bomber. It also was the fastest Luftwaffe bomber to be deployed in the opening phase of the Battle of Britan.

SB, not SB 2. The latter is a mistake propagated by the old IL2 series.  

Thats news to me. As far as I know there were SB-1, SB-2 and SB-3 (confusing troop name for the DB-3).

[LukeFF]

Thats news to me. As far as I know there were SB-1, SB-2 and SB-3 (confusing troop name for the DB-3).

 

 

Nope, it was simply the Tupolev SB. The confusion comes from the subtype names (such as SB 2M-103), which refer to the type of engines fitted. 

Edited August 7, 2015 by LukeFF

[Ace_Pilto]

The Ju 88S appeared in 1942 first though when 109Fs, Gs and Fw 190 As were standard fighters. It wasn't faster than those for sure but quite fast indeed.

 

Well it had to be faster than at least some RAF stuff. Then again, I could outrun a Spitfire Mk V in a VW Golf.

[JtD]

I've been considering the Do17, He111, Mosquito and SB already.

 

I'm convinced the Mossie fits the criteria in at least some versions, but it certainly doesn't in all. It would be nice if subtype and fighter competition were clear.

The SB did have the I-16 as competition, questions here would be the subtypes and the altitudes at which performance was reached. Anyone?

The Do17 and He111 - did they see service before the first 109's did? How did they compare to the I-16?

 

As a bomber, the Ar234 was slower than the contemporary Me262 and Meteor, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't qualify. I don't know much about the Ju88S, but I don't expect performance with bombs at Kampfleistung to be superior to the 109G, or SpitfireIX at altitude and Typhoon at low altitude.

[Cybermat47]

SB, not SB 2. The latter is a mistake propagated by the old IL2 series.

 

My life is a lie

[Finkeren]

Me 262B.

[JtD]

Slower than the Me262A.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

As a bomber, the Ar234 was slower than the contemporary Me262 and Meteor, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't qualify. I don't know much about the Ju88S, but I don't expect performance with bombs at Kampfleistung to be superior to the 109G, or SpitfireIX at altitude and Typhoon at low altitude.

The bomber version of the Arado only flew as late as 1945 and wasn't deployed in large numbers unlike what many believe. It was primarily a reconnisence aircraft and thus required many refittings to be used as a bomber.

 

The reconissence version however entered service earlier (I think 2 months) than the Me 262 A-1 and flew first missions over Normandy and Italy. So it kind of depends on your criteria if it fits or doesn't.

 

Do17 E did definetly fly in Spain (even in 1936 I think) and was together with the He 111 one of the most modern bombers deployed in the war. First 109s (Bs) arrived only as late as 1938 with Ds only seing limited action in Spain right before WW2. I'm not too sure about service dates as it is not my area of expertise though.

 

As far as the SB goes I'm not too familiar with the variants and service dates, although it was designed to be a light highspeed bomber able to outrun fighters of it's day. That's why certain feautures like crew compartment lacked in favour of better performance.

 

Edit: And I wouldn't call the Mossie a bomber but rather an attacker ("Schlachtflugzeug") as it's more a multirole fighter than a clearly defined bomber aircraft.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

First generation of the Mosquito was definitely a bomber. Later marks were multi-role or specialized for recon, attack and night fighting.

 

And I had to re-read the OP because I was about to drop a B-58 Hustler on ya

It still holds a couple of records for supersonic flight though I'm not sure it was outright faster than contemporary fighters.

[xvii-Dietrich]

I think the Arado 234 was a few months earlier in service than the Me 262 although only as a reconissence aircraft. It was one of the very first Luftwaffe aircraft to fly recon missions over the occopied Normandy in 1944.

The first Ar-234 B1 reconnaissance flight was 02-Aug-1944 over Cherbourg. The first recce over the UK was 10-Sep-1944. There were some losses to AA-fire and some were attacked on the ground. However, I am unaware of any being shot down through interception by Allied fighters.

 

As a bomber, however, the Ar-234 B2 was only used very briefly -- notably in mid-March 1945 -- before being limited due to fuel shortages.

 

Ref: Smith & Creek, "Arado 234 Blitz", 1992.

[Kurfurst]

Me 410 comes to mind, it was faster than many at the time (1943), but of course not all. Most importantly, it had a very high cruising speed.

 

Then of course there are many of the earliest monoplane bombers (Blenheims, Do 17s early He 111s) that had a lucky period of facing mostly biplane fighters.

Edited November 2, 2015 by VO101Kurfurst

[MiloMorai]

First generation of the Mosquito was definitely a bomber. Later marks were multi-role or specialized for recon, attack and night fighting.

 

The first Mosquito W5050 was a bomber.

W5051 was a photo recon.

W5052 was a fighter.

 

The first order for Mosquitoes consisted of:

 

Mossie I - 10 PR

Mossie II - 30 fighters

Mossie IV - 10 bombers

Mossie III was to be dual control trainer

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

To be fair the design was in answer to an air ministry requirement for a fast bomber. It was conceived as an unarmed (defensively) medium bomber adapted to the night fighter role. It spent the bulk of its operational life as a fast bomber and attack aircraft. This does not diminish its role as a PR or fighter aircraft in any way.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

How could I forget about the Sparviero?

[Falco_Peregrinus]

How could I forget about the Sparviero?

 

Almost untouchable by the reds during the Spanish civil war.

 

99 planes sent there. They fought for about 2 years and during this time just 2 (two!) were shot down by enemy fighters

and 2 by AA.

It could take immense damage and still going on, thanks to its sturdy construction and materials used.

 

One of my favourite all time warplane of WW2.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Ioshic

[Lusekofte]

The fast bomber theory was buried pretty soon after the outbreak of ww2. When the Mosquito had its first test flight it resurfaced. After a while there was fighters capable of intercepting it, but still they had to be there flying to do so. It was only the "owl" among the night fighters that could do anything, and they where very few. Mosquitos flew daytime missions low level over the channel hugging the waves , so it was a difficult plane to kill and spot. I think in the long run , only the Mosquito was the fast bomber of WW2 the rest only lasted for month

[MiloMorai]

The He217 got a few Mossies but had to be in the right place at the right time because it couldn't catch the Mosquito.