Landing the Fw 190

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Hi All. Apart from the odd bounce, I have got to the point where i can land all the aircraft in BoS, but i'm still finding the 190 landings something of a hit or miss affair?

 

I understand that a good approach is important, I bleed off speed and approach at about 250/260 reducing as i get closer, but i'm never sure if it should be 1/2 flap, full flap or no flap ? and it's constant throttle 

adjustment,cut to much and the 190 drops like a brick!

 

So if you have a good config for landing this great aircraft I would be much obliged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers.  JM.   

[Jizzo]

full flaps, a lil' bit throttle to maintain 220 - 200 kph and right before you touchdown stick backwards and she just drops and you got perfect 3point landing.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Your approach speed is too high. From 500m altitude and about 2.5 km out you should be pitching nose down for about 220, combat flaps (first position) and gear out. I will have to check the RPM's - I know physically where my throttle position is for this but I think it's 1700 rpm. I will confirm later.

 

At about 2 km, full flaps and adjust the throttle to maintain 220. As you cross the fence (as it were) start to let your nose come up and let the speed decay to the 180 range. You shouldn't have to adjust the throttle for this - just the attitude. The plane will settle and float a little. Nose up very slightly and let your speed fall to 160/150 - you should be a meter or two above the strip in your three point and it will settle onto the ground. If you are still floating you can take a couple hundred RPM's off and it should give you just a tiny hop on touchdown. The stick will be in your lap. Otherwise let it continue to float in the three point attitude and it will touch down farther down the tarmac and land itself.

 

Don't pull the throttle all the way off until you are on the ground and make very fine adjustments in any aircraft on the descent. You are near stall speeds on the approach and flare. Big throttle movements make drastic (pucker factor) changes in the aircraft performance. I think you are moving the throttle too much or too fast and probably both.

Edited August 1, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[Guest deleted@50488]

From my RL experience, in gliders:

 

1) Unless there is huge turbulence, always use full flaps ( some gliders have flaps :-) ) .

 

From my simmer experience in IL2 BoS and DCS World ( a sim I used to use before becoming a TOTAL BoS addict, without any chance of cure... ), I always try to cross the threshold at no more than 200km/h, preferably 190Km/h, touch down 3 points.

 

Just like in my glider, I "deny the ground" until she ( or should it be he ? ) stalls into it, in a three point attitude.

 

I guess the Summer and Spring maps can bring us a little bit different feel of bouncing, since landing on an icy runway is certainly different from landing on a grass or soil field...

 

When I first started using Il2 BoS and the Fw190 A3 was released, it still required a few touches in it's flight dynamics, but with time, and the successive updates that BoS has had since then, this fighter has turned into my preferred one.

 

Just a side note to say that the way control forces, and overall feel of control is simply astounding in BoS, with no match in the other sims I have used. This also applies to landing and takeoff, and the feet work they require in the sim.

 

Also, landing and taking off under x-wind and/or turbulence is remarkably reproduced in this sim, again way ahead of what I found in other combat flightsims.

[Freycinet]

Good to hear from someone with real-life experience of flying. Gliders definitely give an unmatched seat of the pants feel for flight dynamics.

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Thank you gentlemen, that's excellent advice, I went for a practice flight and although i did run out of runway a little, I got to land and stop in one piece. It's never easy landing at some of these snow bound air strips with their whiteout conditions, lets hope that the summer maps will prove better

 

 

Thanks All

 

JM.

[donkeycods]

I was watching a video of an actual FW 190 pilot who said that's exactly how it landed. He said once it got down to around 190-200 kph it dropped like a piano onto the runway. He also said he didn't watch his RPMs at all, he only flew off ATA and always kept it between .9 and 1.2 max. He said the last time he looked at it before landing it was at .9, after that he went entirely by sight and engine sound.

[SharpeXB]

From what I know your throttle should be closed when you flare. Otherwise you're just prolonging the roll out.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

If you do that in the 190 you are gonna break your schnitzel.

[Willy__]

Just adjust the throttle to maintain 200kph until you touchdown, after touchdown close the throttle. 

[SharpeXB]

If you're descending at the correct rate with the throttle set, when you flare the plane it will climb up again ie "ballooning"

I know the P-51 manual says to cut the throttle, figure it's standard procedure for most all aircraft.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It will only balloon at 160 kph if you pull up too hard or too fast and it will stall well above the runway. If you ease the nose up you will gently stall it into the three point and it will settle nicely. Close the throttle after touchdown.

[Reflected]

In that DCS interview with a real 109/ 190 pilot I remember him saying he closed the throttle fully at about 50 meters altitude. I'm also a glider pilot, so this throttle thing is what is giving me most of the headache 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Reflected

[voncrapenhauser]

Just like in my glider, I "deny the ground" until she ( or should it be he ? ) stalls into it, in a three point attitude.

 

Same here I was always taught that a tail touch first landing is the best in your inline undercarriage config.

 

I land the FW 190 exactly the same as you and just remember to keep the stick back after touchdown always.

Edited August 2, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

[9./JG27golani79]

If you do that in the 190 you are gonna break your schnitzel.

 

You can cut the throttle completely and do a perfectly fine landing - even when you are on final approach.

 

 

Started with the 190 in DCS and had a terrible hard time landing that thing as it was my first sim plane :D

This document helped me a lot - it´s in german though: http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Diverses/Start%20und%20Landetechnik.pdf

Edited August 2, 2015 by golani79

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Of course you CAN but it is much harder and completely unnecessary - particularly for someone asking for help landing this aircraft. You can dead stick it from 3000m if you want.

 

I usually approach at 550-600 kph and do a break turn over midfield while chopping the throttle to idle but I wouldn't tell someone to do that until they have success with pattern work and mastering typical power on then power off landings first.

Edited August 2, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

Watch this film, at 5:00 "Approach" it recommends that the throttle is closed prior to transitioning to the 3-point attitude.

 

[9./JG27golani79]

Of course you CAN but it is much harder and completely unnecessary - particularly for someone asking for help landing this aircraft.[...]

 

I had a much easier time learning to land when I started to cut the throttle - and I still find it easier to land with the throttle cut.

In the beginning I always tried to adjust the throttle which left me to pretty harsh changes in torque or stalls once the throttle was reduced / cut or opened and those often led to situations which I wasn´t prepared for in the beginning.

 

Those situations are also described in the linked Messerschmitt pdf from my previous posting - maybe someone finds the time to translate it.

Edited August 3, 2015 by golani79

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Golani, we in essence argee. And the same for the glider pilot's references here as well. The only difference in our technique is I keep 1500 rpm on the throttle. It gives you a small margin of error if you over input on the flare - particularly for student pilots.

 

There is no need to make any adjustments to the throttle until touchdown. I was able to finally fly it and verify 1500 is my idle setting.

 

There was a quote in these forums by a 190 pilot that said a power off landing was ill advised and rarely attempted. I doubt I'll find it but I'll search.

[SharpeXB]

Unless there are exceptions for certain aircraft, the real world instructors in these films are always correct. Because they're real.

 

Listen to what they say. It's not "power off" it's idle, "close the throttle" doesn't mean you're killing the engine. You leave the engine on in case you needed to abort. Afaik this is standard for every airplane. I'm no real pilot but it seems obviously the reason you idle it is that otherwise when you transition to the three point stance you'll balloon upwards. You're training to land the plane precisely in the shortest distance possible and ballooning just prolongs this distance. If you hit the ground too hard, watch the film again and see their explaination. You're flaring too high.

[SharpeXB]

This is another good one

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's not "power off" it's idle

 

When then why are we arguing????????????????????? 

Edited August 3, 2015 by [WSB]HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

When then why are we arguing?????????????????????

It looked like there was some confusion here. "Close the throttle" does not mean switch off the engine. It means that the throttle is fully back. The engine is still running. Edited August 3, 2015 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

Some screenshots to illustrate a good landing (or at least about as good as I can do):

 

1. Approach at about 200 KPH, Flaps full down on the final. The attitude is about with the gun sight on the far end of the runway, the aircraft isn't pointed at the ground.

 

2. At about 10' AGL close the throttle prior to transitioning to the 3-point attitude.

 

3. Height above ground where throttle is closed. The plane is level with the ground at this point. Not diving down into the runway.

 

4. Flare and touch down at 170KPH on all three points at once, keep the wings level. Look at the clock on the dash to get an idea where the horizon should be.

 

5. Touch down within the first third of the runway length.

 

6. Maximum amount of bounce in this landing, just hold your attitude throughout any bounce.

 

7. Roll out, hold the stick full back when you're on the ground to lock the tail wheel and tap the brakes slightly.

[SCG_Neun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_IfUWe7F8c

 

I really like how Requiem does his videos....

[SharpeXB]

 

I really like how Requiem does his videos....

He's coming in at a steep glide with the throttle off the whole way down the base/final whereas the WWII film has some measure of power on to maintain the decent rate until the flare where it's finally closed.

Edited August 4, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Ace_Pilto]

Auto prop pitch on takeoff and landing. 

 

[SharpeXB]

Auto prop pitch on takeoff and landing.

 

Source?

[Ace_Pilto]

Source: Aviation 101 under the heading "Common sense."

 

"Automatic pitch systems may fail, manual setting of correct pitch (fully fine) will not"

 

Or you could watch this for some interesting info:

 

 

Now imagine what happens with auto pitch when you have to quickly open the throttle on approach and the system adjusts the blades of the propellor... The plane tries to turn around, the propellor tries to stay still and you end up with very unhappy mechanics working all night filling a crater.

Edited August 5, 2015 by JimmyBlonde

[SharpeXB]

Source: Aviation 101 under the heading "Common sense."

 

"Automatic pitch systems may fail, manual setting of correct pitch (fully fine) will not"

 

Or you could watch this for some interesting info:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKs9VLUcCg

Good source. I don't recall if he talks about auto vs manual control though. I can see manual control being a pilots preference for sure. The Dora and 109K (DCS) manuals seem to imply automatic is used as the default. In any case the auto setting works fine in BoS and since it doesn't model system failures, it's not necessarily more or less reliable. Edited August 5, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Ace_Pilto]

It's probably to prevent over-revving in those later aircraft, especially since the number of young pilots flying them would have been higher than normal and the lubricants were probably more synthetic than they used to be. Sticking with auto = less workload so more focus on flying and less tears on takeoff and landing from other factors. (eg: Engine failure, lack of experience etc)

 

In the 190 and 109 in BoS you can use full throttle at fine pitch for take-off without problems.

 

Anyway, OP should be pleased to hear that an actual veteran on the 190 says that it lands like a piano from the 5th floor.

[SCG_Neun]

Thanks for posting JohnnyBlonde...I really enjoyed that.

[Reflected]

Interesting question. The 109 manual recommends automatic for takeoffs and landing (it automatically goes to fully fine pitch anyway). 

[Ace_Pilto]

That's what Requiem says too. I checked to see that it does that and it seems to be the case. (Although on the frozen steppes of Russia it might not have been so reliable)

 

On landing is where I really think manual is the best option, especially if you've taken damage that increases your stall speed or means that you need more airspeed to keep control. The auto pitch is less inclined to be in the right range in these cases. (15% out of fine or so) and the extra torque from adjusting the throttle is not pleasant.