Really?

[SR-F_Winger]

Yesterday evening on Wings of liberty. A LA-5 diving after me in my FW190 (well beyond the end of the tacho), my 190 already shaking short before the surfaces ripp off and the LA-5 could still follow me from almost 5k to treetop. And i am talking vertical dive to the very limit. LA-5 in pursuit max 100-200m behind me. Thank god the guy was a crappy shot. Guys (DEVs). Thats BS!

Are all the russian planes prototypes with special secret reinforced titanium materials? Kidding.

Edited July 30, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[Finkeren]

Topic aside, why on Earth are you diving vertically all the way down? That's not really a good defensive tactic, regardless of high speed dive performance.

My own experience with the La-5 is that it's coming apart at 750 km/h while the Fw 190 can do 850 and still remain in one piece.

 

I'm not disregarding what you say, but I do advise you to do proper high speed diving tests in the two planes and show how the La-5 performs as well or better than the Würger and can maintain similar max speed.

[Saurer]

I tried it now in the QMB

 

The La 5 starts shaking like mad at 750km/h and looses its controll surfices at 780-800

The Fw starts shaking somewere above 800 and looses its controll surfices close to 900km/h

 

Doesn't say anything about the distance between the aircraft 

Edited July 30, 2015 by Saurer

[Finkeren]

Doesn't say anything about the distance between the aircraft

Ideed, we'd have to do tests of the acceleration in a dive.

 

However, in a long, steep dive such as Winger describes, the maximum attainable speed should definately come into play, and in my experience the Fw 190 wins hands down in that regard.

[SR-F_Winger]

Topic aside, why on Earth are you diving vertically all the way down? That's not really a good defensive tactic, regardless of high speed dive performance.

My own experience with the La-5 is that it's coming apart at 750 km/h while the Fw 190 can do 850 and still remain in one piece.

 

I'm not disregarding what you say, but I do advise you to do proper high speed diving tests in the two planes and show how the La-5 performs as well or better than the Würger and can maintain similar max speed.

I had to. He was too close. I am not saying i didnt do a mistake. I had to get out of range fast. And the situation was as explained. He followed down to treetop and i didnt gain more than 200m on him.

 

EDIT: I went vertical with emergencypower until i reaced the end of the tacho and then flattened out to not loose my surfaces. But him being so close to me still means that he MUST have been flying the same speed.

 

On the other hand i dont know IF he maybe lost any surfaces but kept flying. But honestly. At this speed ALL of his surfaces should have been long gone.

 

Another EDIT: But what do i talk. Doenst change anything anyways. I should have thought before wasting my time with this post. Sorry guys!

Edited July 30, 2015 by JG4_Winger

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Yesterday evening on Wings of liberty. A LA-5 diving after me in my FW190 (well beyond the end of the tacho), my 190 already shaking short before the surfaces ripp off and the LA-5 could still follow me from almost 5k to treetop. And i am talking vertical dive to the very limit. LA-5 in pursuit max 100-200m behind me. Thank god the guy was a crappy shot. Guys (DEVs). Thats BS!

Are all the russian planes prototypes with special secret reinforced titanium materials? Kidding.

I did that in the La-5 a couple of times. The guy chasing you may have been me actually. The reason he was a bad shot was probably because his ailerons were missing already.

[Dakpilot]

One interesting point is that it was Soviet tactical doctrine to try and catch a 190 at the bottom of a fast dive, they were reported to lose a lot of energy in the pull out and were briefly vulnerable, this is from tactical advise given to pilots from combat experience, so how much is real and how much is propaganda is always up for debate, however some truth must be the basis.

 

In game it is very easy in 190 to put excessive inputs due to very effective controls, and lose a lot of energy unnecessarily, especially in the 'heat of battle' Soviet aircraft do not suffer the same problem and are able to be flown at limits without over control and energy bleed  due to much less effective control inputs, this is historical and true, however in game due to lack of feed back felt, the advantage of superior Luftwaffe control authority can actually be a hindrance (in game) and lead to underperforming (energy loss) situations unless flown very delicately

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[No601_Prangster]

Only kidding Winger 

[216th_Jordan]

Also, adding to that. A heavier plane will accelerate slower in a dive because of the thrust to weight ratio especially in a steep dive.

[Finkeren]

Well, it seems pretty established, that the Fw 190 has a higher maximum speed in a dive and can dive above 850 km/h and be fine - something that would tear a La-5 apart.

 

What remains is the question: Does the La-5 accellerate faster in a steep dive? And should it? (Propably not)

 

Anyone care to work out a reliable test for acceleration in a dive?

Only kidding Winger

VVS aircraft shaming definately needs to be a thing

[216th_Jordan]

I should correct that: Diving vertically gives you no advantage of acceleration, it just adds gravity which is a constant for both planes.

 

In the end you will be left at the deck very soon without any potential energy.

[Y-29.Silky]

Topic aside, why on Earth are you diving vertically all the way down? That's not really a good defensive tactic, regardless of high speed dive performance.

 

My own experience with the La-5

 

With all due respect Fink, I do wonder the last time you've flown Germany for a good amount in the MP servers.

 

I'm not one to take complaints lightly, but recently, especially when it comes to FM's (especially for the 190's), when I see something out of the water, it's obvious. The only time I can escape Russians whether it be 500m or 6000m... Is when I'm in the G-2. Furthermore, I can't tell you how many times I create an oil leak on a Russian fighter (Pe-2's/IL-2's aside, they were tanks), and they'll still climb up to me as easy as a Sunday morning. I know OP's fault was that an La-5 was diving after him therefore had the initial energy advantage, so OP is wrong in this case. Early 190's have bad performance at high altitude which is where OP went wrong, besides trying to escape in a cloud (every time I dive in a 190 it reaches 7-800kph)... But I still think the Yak is completely [Edited] because even in that 7-800kph dive, that Yak will keep up.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Bearcat

[Finkeren]

In the end acceleration in a dive should only really come down to two factors: Power/weight ratio and and drag. You could also look at difference in propeller efficiency etc. but honestly I think the difference there would be marginal.

 

As for power/weight ratio there is the added complication that engine output fluctuates a great deal on the way down: At full power the two planes are very close at altitudes below 2000m, the La-5 having the advantage for a brief moment between 2-3000 due to the 190s strange supercharger 'jump' and the Fw 190 holding the edge up to 5000. Overall the advantage is propably slightly on the side of the Fw 190.

 

As for drag, there can be little doubt, that the Fw 190 with its squared off wings and higher wing loading likely generates significant more induced drag, but that only really plays an important role at the start of the dive when airspeed is low.

 

As for form drag it's much less clear. On the face of it, the Fw 190 appears to be a somewhat cleaner design, and we know that it performed very well in wind tunnel tests. On the other hand, the La-5 has the benefit of being able to completely close off its cowling intake and thus create a much cleaner profile. The Fw 190 continues to ram air through its engine throughout the dive.

 

My personal guess would be, that the Fw 190 should have a slight advantage in acceleration in a steep dive, but not significant. It should have (and does appear to have) a significant advantage in safe top speed.

With all due respect Fink, I do wonder the last time you've flown Germany for a good amount in the MP servers.

I fly VVS/LW maybe 60/40. When I fly German it's usually Fw 190 or Bf 109G2, though I personally suck at the Würger.

Furthermore, I can't tell you how many times I create an oil leak on a Russian fighter (Pe-2's/IL-2's aside, they were tanks), and they'll still climb up to me as easy as a Sunday morning.

What did you expect? Besides smearing your canopy and making it hard to aim, all an oil leak really does is put your engine on a timer. Once the oil tank is drained sufficiently the engine will break down in seconds rather than minutes. Until then though, there should not really be any significant reduction in power.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17423-600kmh-dive-test/

 

La-5 cannot follow you if you dive properly.

[Finkeren]

But I still think the Yak is completely bullshit because even in that 7-800kph dive, that Yak will keep up.

I fly the Yak quite a lot, and I'll have to call [Edited] on this one. If I dive my Yak much past 750 km/h, I will have no elevators to pull out of the dive.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Tbh I think this is all down to how people fly. I can normally out run most vvs aircraft quite easy if we are co g and even if they have a little more g. I think people get caught and get frustrated

[Finkeren]

The only reason the Yak generally wasn't considered strong in a dive was because of the weak fitting of the delta wood skin on the wings, which tended to crack or tear off, when the aircraft was pushed beyond 700km/h. This ofc isn't modelled in BoS, instead we have the loss of control surfaces. Otherwise the Yak was very strongly built as evidenced by the fact, that the design saw a performance increase from a top speed around 570 km/h to over 700 km/h from 1940 - 45 without ever strengthening the internal structure.

[EAF19_Marsh]

As for drag, there can be little doubt, that the Fw 190 with its squared off wings and higher wing loading likely generates significant more induced drag, but that only really plays an important role at the start of the dive when airspeed is low.

 

 

I would have thought that meant that the 190 exhibited lower drag; the wing-loading does not impact drag in an unloaded dive but the smaller wings do suggest lower form drag. Also, is the 190 not smaller and denser than an La-5?

 

 

[Ace_Pilto]

When I first read this Winger I thought it might have been me that chased you but I don't think I've ever been in Wings of Liberty, sure sounds familiar though because I did the same thing myself recently and when I ask myself:

 

a) Who is brainless enough to follow a 190 in a vertical dive, well I am of course.

 

b) Terrible shot, yep.

 

I score 100% in common with your friendly La-5 tormentor.

 

If it is any consolation to you, the last time I tried a stunt like this in the La-5 I lost my right aileron and had to limp off out of the fight and dodge every Luftwaffe fighter in the server on the way home. My top speed in that dive was very close to 800 kph so it takes very soft hands and a lot of luck to get away with it but it can be done, just. Generally I just end up a smoking crater when diving the La-5 because of the wet cardboard they use to cover the control surfaces with, it simply won't respond at high speed and if I have my trim wrong then I go drilling for oil.

[Finkeren]

I would have thought that meant that the 190 exhibited lower drag; the wing-loading does not impact drag in an unloaded dive but the smaller wings do suggest lower form drag. Also, is the 190 not smaller and denser than an La-5?

Squared-off wings produce more induced drag than the tapering wings of the La-5. This has nothing to do with form drag and only makes up a significant part of total drag at low air speeds (which is why I said that it only plays a part early in the dive).

 

Overall, the Fw 190 is both larger and heavier than the La-5. The Fw 190 is not that big, but all Soviet single seat fighters of the era were really, really small, including the La-5.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Finkeren

[Sunde]

If you are getting caught in a dive in the FW 190. Its really very simple
A: Either the enemy had higher speed than you in the begining of the dive and caught you before you reached max speed.
B: Or you are not diving in the right way. 
And Silky, i dont know what plane your flying when you say that the russians climb up to you "like it was a sunday morning".
If its the FW190 then thats realistic, especially at high altitudes, where the A3 flies like a beached whale. 
If your getting outclimbed in the 109, well your climbing wrong.
The yak cannot follow the FW or the 109 in a max speed dive, period.
They can however keep their altitude and stalk you, perhaps catch up with you later on. 
(I apologize for my english) 

[unreasonable]

Squared-off wings produce more induced drag than the tapering wings of the La-5. This has nothing to do with form drag and only makes up a significant part of total drag at low air speeds (which is why I said that it only plays a part early in the dive).

 

Overall, the Fw 190 is both larger and heavier than the La-5. The Fw 190 is not that big, but all Soviet single seat fighters of the era were really, really small, including the La-5.

 

I think the point was that if the dive is entered by lowering the AoA until there is zero lift, the aircraft produces zero induced drag whatever it's speed. Once you are on the required slope you can get your lift back but by that time you are going fast enough that this is a small effect as you say.

 

Le-Hairy's dive tests indicate that the correct escape for a 190 would be a very shallow dive: the La cannot stay at the same glide slope at the same speed (at least once over level top speed): it must either dive more steeply and fall below, or stay on the same slope and fall behind. Whether the separation is fast enough to get you out of gun range is another matter...

[Wulf]

One interesting point is that it was Soviet tactical doctrine to try and catch a 190 at the bottom of a fast dive, they were reported to lose a lot of energy in the pull out and were briefly vulnerable, this is from tactical advise given to pilots from combat experience, so how much is real and how much is propaganda is always up for debate, however some truth must be the basis.

 

In game it is very easy in 190 to put excessive inputs due to very effective controls, and lose a lot of energy unnecessarily, especially in the 'heat of battle' Soviet aircraft do not suffer the same problem and are able to be flown at limits without over control and energy bleed  due to much less effective control inputs, this is historical and true, however in game due to lack of feed back felt, the advantage of superior Luftwaffe control authority can actually be a hindrance (in game) and lead to underperforming (energy loss) situations unless flown very delicately

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

This is just laughable to be honest.  Are you referring to the "highly effective" controls that give the 190 it's fantastic turn or are you talking about it's amazing roll?  And for you're information, the 190 wasn't considered in any respect an expert's aircraft.  It was by all accounts a very easy aircraft to fly effectively.

 

Appreciate if you'd post a copy of the Soviet 'tactical doctrine' about catching a 190 at the bottom of a dive.  I'd be really interested in reading it.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Wulf

[Brano]

The only reason the Yak generally wasn't considered strong in a dive was because of the weak fitting of the delta wood skin on the wings, which tended to crack or tear off, when the aircraft was pushed beyond 700km/h....

This was an issue with first series of Yak-3,not Yak-1.Due to overenthusiasm at Yakovlevs OKB to make Yak-3 as light as possible to achive higher performance.With the same engine as Yak-1 it was the only way how to proceed,together with "streamlining" and polishing the aerodynamics.After field trials and first failures all newly arrived aircrafts were grounded and factory "firebrigades" together with field units repair shops started to correct this issue.That was also one of the reasons why the introduction of Yak-3 to the field units was postponed to summer 1944.

[Finkeren]

This was an issue with first series of Yak-3,not Yak-1.Due to overenthusiasm at Yakovlevs OKB to make Yak-3 as light as possible to achive higher performance.With the same engine as Yak-1 it was the only way how to proceed,together with "streamlining" and polishing the aerodynamics.After field trials and first failures all newly arrived aircrafts were grounded and factory "firebrigades" together with field units repair shops started to correct this issue.That was also one of the reasons why the introduction of Yak-3 to the field units was postponed to summer 1944.

Really? I was under the impression that this continued to be an issue with all Yaks until the introduction of bakelite skin?

 

In any case it just underlines my point, that the Yak was not structurally weak - quite the opposite. It was arguably the sturdiest of all Soviet fighter designs and was extremely resillient to the harsh and primitive conditions present on the Eastern Front during much of the war.

 

I really don't know why the Yak has gained a reputation as weaker and more vulnerable? Perhaps because it's a bit smaller and lighter?

[EAF19_Marsh]

 

I think the point was that if the dive is entered by lowering the AoA until there is zero lift, the aircraft produces zero induced drag whatever it's speed. Once you are on the required slope you can get your lift back but by that time you are going fast enough that this is a small effect as you say.

 

Yes that was exactly what I meant; induced drag should not really be a major factor when diving and in any case the difference in the wing size and shape between the 2 aircraft should be offset by the higher density of the 190 (about a tonne heavier for not much greater flatplate area).

[JtD]

I really don't know why the Yak has gained a reputation as weaker and more vulnerable? Perhaps because it's a bit smaller and lighter?

The guys firing at it mostly found it rather weak and vulnerable.

[Dakpilot]

This is just laughable to be honest.  Are you referring to the "highly effective" controls that give the 190 it's fantastic turn or are you talking about it's amazing roll?  And for you're information, the 190 wasn't considered in any respect an expert's aircraft.  It was by all accounts a very easy aircraft to fly effectively.

 

Appreciate if you'd post a copy of the Soviet 'tactical doctrine' about catching a 190 at the bottom of a dive.  I'd be really interested in reading it.

 

 

Sorry but I am beginning to think that your understanding of aerodynamics and actual flight is at a similar level to  your understandings of engines, now not having experience is one thing, nobody is born with it, but the example set in your "engine response " thread leads me to conclude you are not willing to learn.

 

The 'highly effective controls' I am talking about have been discussed and proven by Han in the FM thread, they give more authority and are able to assert more 'G' than the Russian aircraft

 

This is why it is easier to snap roll or accelerate/negative stall the 109 and 190, I never implied that the 190 is some sort of 'Experten' aircraft merely that the lack of "feel" that you have in game compared to real life easily allows overcontrol and excess energy loss, and needs a gentle touch to get the maximum performance compared to the Yak and LaG, which in game can be yanked about the sky with little detriment

All this is no fault of the FM's but a limitation of the feedback you get in a sim compared to real life.

 

The translation of the WWII Russian instructions on comparative performance between fighters and tactics has been posted many times on these boards I am sure a search will bring it up.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

The guys firing at it (Yak) mostly found it rather weak and vulnerable.

Got any sources for that? I don't recall ever reading any anecdotes from German pilots pointing out the Yak as particularly vulnerable.

 

Of course all aircraft, and single seat fighters in particular, are quite vulnerable to cannon fire, but I see no reason why you'd single out the Yak as special in that regard. Like most light fighters at the time it had armour protection for the pilot and nothing else.

 

In any case: I wasn't talking about the Yaks vulnerability to combat damage but its structural strength, which was high.

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Don't know about Yak-1 but i remember some time ago, reading about german pilots comparing the Yak-3 to glass.

[Finkeren]

Don't know about Yak-1 but i remember some time ago, reading about german pilots comparing the Yak-3 to glass.

Again: I'd really like to see those quotes, because it goes against everything I've read about the Soviet pilots assessment of the Yak. They specifically point out, how strong it was compared to the Lavochkin fighters which could hardly operate at all from unpaved airfields.

 

From an enemys point of view, it would certainly be hard to determine the structural strength of enemy aircraft.

[Dakpilot]

Here is part of the translation of the Russian combat tactics article I had referenced

 

 

RUSSIAN COMBAT EXPERIENCES WITH THE FW-190

 

In all probability the Germans have used their FW-190s on the Russian front to a much lesser extent than elsewhere, and the standards of air combat on that front very likely differ from those over Western Europe and in the Mediterranean.

The following translation of an article which appeared in the "Red Fleet" compares some of the tactics used by the German and Russian fighter planes (FW-190 and La-5). It should be pointed out that these observations apply particularly to the Russian front and are not necessarily in line with experiences in other European theaters. This translation is published without evaluation or comment, purely for its informational value in presenting Russian opinion concerning the FW-190, as printed in the "Red Fleet."

 

*          *          *

The FW-190 first appeared on the Soviet-German front at the end of 1942. This is the first high-speed German fighter with an air-cooled engine. In comparison with the Me-109 and its modernized versions, the Me-109F and the Me-109G, the FW-190 is of a higher quality.

The speed of the FW-190 is slightly higher than that of the Messerschmitt; it also has more powerful armament and is more maneuverable in horizontal flight. The FW-190 has a large supply of ammunition, with 15 seconds of cannon fire, and 50 seconds of constant machine-gun fire. For this reason the gunners are not economical with their ammunition, and often open up the so-called "frightening fire". The pilots have good visibility laterally, forward, upward and rearward. A fairly good horizontal maneuver permits the FW-190 to turn at low speed without falling into a tail spin. An armored ring on the front part of the engine provides the pilot with reliable protection; for this reason, the FW-190's quite often make frontal attacks. In this way they differ from the Me-109s.

One shortcoming of the FW-190 is its weight. The lightest model of this plane weighs 3,500 kgs. (7,700 lbs), while the average weight is from 3,800 (8,360 lbs) to 3,900 kgs. (8,580 lbs). Since the FW-190 is so heavy and does not have a high-altitude engine, pilots do not like to fight in vertical maneuvers. Another weak point in the FW-190 is the poor visibility downward, both forward and rearward. The FW-190 is seriously handicapped in still another way; there is no armor around the gas tanks, which are situated under the pilot's seat and behind it. From below, the pilot is not protected in any way; from behind, the only protection is the ordinary seat-back with 15-mm of armor. Even bullets from our large caliber machine guns penetrate this armor, to say nothing of cannon.

The main problem confronting our fliers is that of forcing the Germans to fight from positions advantageous to us.

The FW-190's eagerly make frontal attacks. Their methods of conducting fire in such cases is quite stereotyped. To begin with the Germans open fire with long-range ammunition from the horizontal cannons at a distance of 1,000 meters (3,200 feet). At 500 or 400 meters (1,000 or 1,300 feet) the FW-190 opens fire from all guns. Since the planes approach each other at an extremely great speed during frontal attacks one should never, under any circumstances, turn from the given course. Fire should be opened at a distance of 700 or 800 meters, (2,300 or 2,600 feet). Practice has shown that in frontal attacks both planes are so damaged that, in the majority of cases, they are compelled to drop out of the battle. Therefore, frontal attacks with FW-190's may be made only when the battle happens to be over our territory. Frontal engagements over enemy territory, or even more so in the enemy rear, should be avoided.

If a frontal attack of an FW-190 should fail the pilot usually attempts to change the attacks into a turning engagement. Being very stable and having a large range of speeds, the FW-190 will inevitably offer turning battle at a minimum speed. Our Lavochkin-5 may freely take up the challenge, if the pilot uses the elevator tabs correctly. By using your foot to hold the plane from falling into a tail spin you can turn the La-5 at an exceedingly low speed, thus keeping the FW from getting on your tail.

When fighting the La-5, the FW risks a vertical maneuver only at high speed. For example, let us assume that the first frontal attack of an FW failed. The plane then goes on ahead and prepares for a second frontal attack. If it fails a second time, the pilot turns sharply to the side and goes into a steep dive. On coming out of the dive, he picks up speed in horizontal flight and engages the opposing plane in a vertical maneuver.

Vertical-maneuver fighting with the FW-190 is usually of short duration since our planes have a better rate of climb than the German planes, and because the Germans are unable to withstand tense battles of any length.

The winner in present air battles must have an advantage in altitude. This is especially true with regard to the FW-190. "Once a comrade of mine and I engaged two FW-190's at a height of 3,500 meters (10,850 ft). After three energetic attacks we succeeded in chasing the two FW-190's down to 1,500 meters (4,650 ft). All the while we kept our advantage in height. As usual the German tried, out of an inverted turn, to get away and below, but I got one in my sight and shot it down. After that we immediately went up to 3,700 meters (11,470 ft) and met another group of FW-190's as they were attacking one of our Pe-2 bombers. We made use of our advantage in height and by vertical attacks succeeded in chasing the Germans away and also shot one down."

When following a diving FW you should never dive below the other enemy planes. When two planes dive the one following the leader should come out of the dive in such a way as to be at an advantage over the leading plane in height and speed. In this way the tail of the leading plane will be protected; at the same time, the second plane will also be able to open up direct fire against the enemy.

In fighting the FW-190 our La-5 should force the Germans to fight by using the vertical maneuver. This may be achieved by constantly making vertical attacks. The first climb of the FW is usually good, the second worse, and the third altogether poor. This may be explained by the fact that the FW's great weight does not permit it to gather speed quickly in the vertical maneuver. After two or three persistent attacks by our fighters the FWs completely lose their advantage in height and in speed, and inevitably find themselves below. And because of this, they are sure to drop out of the battle into a straight dive (sometimes up to 90 degrees) with the idea of gaining height on the side, and then of coming in again from the side of the sun with an advantage in speed and height. At times it happens that the FW, after diving, does not gain altitude, but attempts to drop out of the battle altogether in low flight. However, the FW-190 is never able to come out of a dive below 300 or 250 meters (930 ft or 795 ft). Coming out of a dive, made from 1,500 meters (4,650 ft) and at an angle of 40 to 45 degrees, the FW-190 falls an extra 200 meters (620 ft).

A shortcoming of the FW-190 is its poor climbing ability. When climbing in order to get an altitude advantage over the enemy, there is a moment when the FW-190 "hangs" in the air. It is then convenient to fire. Therefore, when following a FW-190 in a dive, you should bring your plane out of the dive slightly before the FW comes out of it, in order to catch up with him on the vertical plane. In other words, when the FW comes out of the dive you should bring your plane out in such a way as to have an advantage over the enemy in height. If this can be achieved, the FW-190 becomes a fine target when it "hangs". Direct fire should be opened up at a short distance, 50 to 100 meters (150 to 300 ft). It should also be remembered that the weakest spots of the FW-190 are below and behind--the gasoline tanks and the pilot's legs, which are not protected.

Throughout the whole engagement with a FW-190, it is necessary to maintain the highest speed possible. The Lavochkin-5 will then have, when necessary, a good vertical maneuver, and consequently, the possibility of getting away from an enemy attack or on the contrary, of attacking. It should further be kept in mind that the La-5 and the FW-190 in outward appearance resemble each other very much; therefore, careful observation is of great importance. We may emphasize once more: never let an enemy plane gain an altitude advantage over you and you will win the fight.

 

 

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited July 30, 2015 by Dakpilot

[JtD]

In any case: I wasn't talking about the Yaks vulnerability to combat damage but its structural strength, which was high.

So was the A6M's.

 

About combat damage sources, I'd say you can read about any German combat reports from the Eastern front, even I have read some references to that, and I don't really read a lot of pilot stories.

Edited July 30, 2015 by JtD

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

What did you expect? Besides smearing your canopy and making it hard to aim, all an oil leak really does is put your engine on a timer. Once the oil tank is drained sufficiently the engine will break down in seconds rather than minutes. Until then though, there should not really be any significant reduction in power.

An oil leak can do many things to an engine, especially in an aircraft at varying altitudes.  If you're leaking oil, your engine will begin to run hotter than it should.  The engine is not getting proper lubrication and this should effect it significantly besides it just running at a higher temperature then eventually dying.  Pistons without proper lubrication are not going to run efficiently and if they're not, horsepower should dwindle and that is just basic mechanical stuff......aircraft, cars, motorcycles, whatever.  Not saying you're wrong but I strongly disagree with what you say.

 

Now when fuel pressure is lost, an engine should be robbed of significant horsepower.

 

I can say that I was flying with Silky just the other night and we were fighting a single Yak at around 6500m.  We went in with a slight energy advantage as well.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the M-105 was abysmal above 4km.

 

There is absolutely no reason this Yak should be giving us a hard time at that altitude without an energy advantage.  And even if he did come in with an energy advantage, he should have to be awfully disciplined to keep it.  He was climbing up to us "like Sunday morning" (also abusing his flaps) and I just don't find that to be right.  We were both flying 109s and I ended up shooting him down but FFS did it seem wrong that he could keep us on our toes for that long at that altitude being at such a disadvantage on multiple levels.

 

I'd enjoy seeing someone test it's higher altitude performance.

[Dakpilot]

And just for the hell of it here is another translated fighter tactics from a 1943 article, not totally relevant but anyway

 

 

Common rules of fighting the Me-109 are the same for most modern fighters, primarily the La-5 and all Yak variants.

 

 

La-5 fighter has the same climb rate as the Me-109G6 under 3,500 meters. Me-109G6 has better climb rate over 3,500 meters. Therefore, it makes better sense to fight Me-109’s at lower altitudes when flying a La-5. When forced to engage at higher altitudes, always try to have altitude advantage prior to entering the fight.

 

La-5 is faster than the Me-109 at lower altitudes as well; it is 40 km/h faster at ground level and 20 km/h faster at 1,000 meters. Me-109G has airspeed advantage after 3,000 –3,5000 meters.

 

Pilots flying the La-5 should remember that open canopy slows the plan down by as much as 45 km/h and affects climb rate. Engine cowling should be closed as having them open also slows the plane down. Of course, you must make sure that your engine temperature never exceeds 240 degrees C.

 

In a turning fight La-5 will get on Me-109’s tail after three or four circles. However a turning fight is not recommended due to the common disadvantages of a turning fight. If an enemy fighter begins a turning fight himself, it is possible to commit to such an engagement but only there are covering friendly flights at higher altitudes. Germans will often begin a turning fight to constrain our fighters, only to have other enemy fighters engage them from above.

 

Supercharger on La-5 can be used freely with no constraints.

 

LaGG-3 fighter is a heavy and sluggish plane with poor acceleration. LaGG-3 will lose a great deal of altitude in a dive without adding significant airspeed, especially when compared to a Me-109. LaGG-3 is more maneuverable than the Me-109 in horizontal fights and it causes some pilots to commit to turning fights. LaGG-3 in a turning fight will bleed off speed very rapidly however and since it accelerates so poorly, it will have difficulty switching to vertical. It is most important to start a fight with altitude advantage in a LaGG-3 and to avoid losing it at all costs.

 

MiG-3 is a good high-altitude fighter. The higher is the better for a MiG-3 pilot. When fighting at middle to low altitudes it is necessary to have cover from above and use any possible chance to gain altitude.

 

 

I-16 is of course much slower than a Me-109, but it is much more maneuverable. I-16 cannot force a “messer” to commit, but it can easily dispatch of one that does. I-16 pilot can always escape an attacking Me-109 if he notices the threat in time. Altitude advantage is of the utmost importance for the I-16, like for other fighters. When attacking a Me-109 from his 10 to 2 o’clock high, German pilot is not protected by anything against I-16 armament. I-16 situated above its opponent can attack it from behind as well. It is important for a flight of I-16s to have altitude advantage; also, planes should not all be at the same altitude and at least one pair should be above the rest.

 

I-153 fighter should use the same tactics as the I-16. Chaika is incredibly maneuverable; a cautious pilot can be invulnerable to the clumsy Me-109. I-153 can always outturn any opponent, and meet attack from any angle with a full frontal assault. Very often an I-153 will be firing at a Me-109 which is unable to turn at it.

 

I-16s and I-153 have also been using the so-called “bee hive” tactic in battle. This tactic calls for all I-16 and I-153 fighters to hold in one unorganized group and maneuver in different directions all at the same time, usually horizontally. In this “mass” I-16s and I-153s are much less vulnerable to enemy attacks as any enemy attack on any one fighter will be met by strong fire from several other friendly planes. This tactic also takes any threat off the enemy and leaves initiative completely up to him. Any plane accidentally leaving the “bee formation” becomes an immediate prey of the awaiting enemy fighters. If, however, the group of planes is correctly echeloned by altitude, enemy cannot dare to attack the stragglers as they now have protection of other fighters.

 

KittyHawk and Aerocobra should fight using the Yak-1 and La-5 tactics, i.e. fighting vertically and striving for altitude advantage, etc.

 

Hurricane fighter is inferior to Me-109 both in airspeed and in rate of climb. It however has better horizontal maneuverability and superb firepower. It is extremely important for a Hurricane to have altitude advantage over a Me-109 to make up for airspeed and climb rate inferiority.

 

In conclusion we must again point out that any airspeed and/or climb rate limitation can be cancelled out by altitude advantage.

 

 

Fighting in a group of mixed fighters.

 

Combination of different types of fighters in the same group can be a very good thing, as shortcomings of one fighter can be neutralized by other fighter’s advantages. However, fighters of different type should never fly within the same formation. For example, a flight of four planes cannot have leaders flying Yaks and wingmen in LaGGs as pairs like that will lose each other easily. Every fighter type should be organized into it’s own part of the main battle echelon formation.

 

The following guidelines should be followed when distributing different types of fighter planes within one flight: faster airplanes go high, maneuverable planes go low. Lowest echelon maneuvers to bring the enemy under the highest group’s attack. If the higherst group initiates the fight, lower group climbs and meets the enemy that has already been slowed down by faster fighters.

 

It is usually not recommended to have more than two types of fighters working together. Of course, formations from three, four or even more types of fighters can be created, i.e. MiG-3 at 5,000-6,000 meters, Yaks at 4,000 meters, I-16 at 2,000-3,000 and I-153 and 500-1,000 meters. Such formations however can only be constructed by combining forces from several squadrons where pilots unfamiliar with each other will find it very difficult to fight together.

 

Engaging the FW-190 fighter

 

FW-109A fighter is a single seat low wing metal monoplane with retractable gear and retractable tailwheel.

 

German Luftwaffe command used this fighter primarily in the West front against the British in the beginning of the war. FW-190 appeared on the Russian-German front at the end of 1042.

 

FW-190 has a 14-cylinder air cooled, twin-row radial engine. Engine fan is located at the front of the fuselage and is connected to the engine spinner. Fan rotates three times the speed of the prop. Engine generates 1,460 hp at nominal power and 1,760 hp at full military. It can only work at full throttle for no more than 1 minute.

 

The fighter has two machine guns and four cannons, situated as follows:

 

1. Two synchronous 7.92 mm MG-17 machine guns in upper engine housing. Machine guns fire at 800 rounds per minute. Each machine gun has 750 rounds.
2. Two synchronous MG-151 cannons in the wing by the fuselage, firing through the propeller. Cannons fire at 500 rounds per minute. Each cannon has 250 rounds.
3. Two synchronous MG-FF 20 mm cannons in the wing, firing outside the propeller diameter. Cannons fire at 520 rounds per minute. Each cannon has 90 rounds.

 

Guns can be fired simultaneously, or from each of the group separately (machine guns or cannons). Gun fire is selected electrically, by pressing buttons on the pilot control column. Cockpit is equipped with gun round counters. Also, the FW-190 can carry one 250 kg bomb or a fuel tank.

 

Armor on the FW-190 is located in the following areas: the pilot is protected by the engine and 60 mm armored glass. Nose of the plane enclosing the oil radiator is made of 5 mm armored plate; the rest of the nose is 3 mm armor.

 

There is also an 8 mm armored seat that covers the pilot up to the shoulder level. There is an indent in the sear for the parachute. A 5 mm armored plate behind the pilot seat fills the full fuselage profile except the area for the parachute indent. 12 mm headrest protects pilot’s head and shoulders. There is no armor protecting pilot from the side or below.

 

Two fuel tanks are located directly under the pilot cabin, starting from the rudder pedals and back for a total length of 1.9 meters. Both fuel tanks have a total fuel capacity of 520 liters.

 

Russian Yak-7 pilots that fought FW-190 and successfully shot it down are certain that a Yak-7 can fight the FW-190 in all situations successfully and with more success than the Me-109. FW-190s have never been observed to try to climb away from our fighters. It is due to it’s climb rate inferior to our fighters and the Me-109G6. Diving Yak-7 will catch a FW-190. Yak-7 will easily outturn a FW-190 in a right turn; both planes have equal turn rate in a left turn. Yak-1 and La-5 outmaneuver FW-190 even better.

 

FW-190A has the following advantages compared to the Me-109G6: under 4,000 meters it is about 20-30 km/h faster in horizontal flight. It is easier to control and has better overall pilot visibility. It also has superior firepower.

 

FW-190 is inferior to Me-109G by the following criteria: it is substantially heavier than the Me-109G (wing loading of 206 kg per square meter) and thus its climb rate is worse. Above 4,500 meters is it slower in horizontal flight. Landing speed is higher. It is slower in a dive. There is no armor protection against attacks from below or the side.

 

The following information about German tactics is derived from experience of our pilots that fought the FW-190.

 

Enemy mostly stays in obsolete formations when flying, i.e. closely spaced pairs, etc.

 

Germans will position their fighters at different altitudes, especially when expecting to encounter our fighters. FW-190 will fly at 1,500-2,500 meters and Me-109G at 3,500-4,000 meters. They interact in the following manner:

 

FW-190 will attempt to close with our fighters hoping to get behind them and attack suddenly. If that maneuver is unsuccessful they will even attack head-on relying on their superb firepower. This will also break up our battle formations to allow Me-109Gs to attack our fighters as well. Me-109G will usually perform boom-n-zoom attacks using superior airspeed after their dive.

 

FW-190 will commit to the fight even if our battle formation is not broken, preferring left turning fights. There has been cases of such turning fights lasting quite a long time, with multiple planes from both sides involved in each engagement.

 

FW-190 will dive, sometimes inverted, when threatened by our fighters getting on his six. There has never been occasions of FW-190 attempting to climb away in such situations.

 

FW-190s will most often fight in separate pairs. Leader will roll and dive to attract our fighters when they get close. Wingman usually climbs away and watches our planes. If our fighters dive after the leader wingman will boom-n-zoom our fighters and attempt to form up with his leader.

 

Enemy fighter tactics are mostly built on individual engagements, as majority of captured Germans had told. Thus, Germans will try everything to break up our formations or at least force single planes to break off from the main groups. As one captured pilot said, “we count on the slow ones”

 

Captured FW-190 pilots are familiar with specifics of all our planes, and consider Yak-1, Yak-9 and La-5 to be superior to theirs. It must be however pointed out that FW-190 have not been fighting on our front for too long and thus their tactics are still being developed. They are more than likely to change drastically very soon.

 

Yak-1, Yak-7 and La-5 fighting an FW-190 have all the factors necessary to win. Our fighters are almost as fast as the FW-190, turn and climb better and have formidable firepower.

 

FW-190 has a lot of vulnerable areas. Pilot is exposed during all but the perfect 12 and 6 o’clock attacks. Fuel tanks are not at all protected and are located directly under the pilot. Area in front of the engine housing oil tank and radiator is most vulnerable as well. Engine fan works at extremely high rotations; oil system or fan knocked out will inevitably cause the engine to overheat and flame out or malfunction.

 

Electric control circuit for weapons selection is located behind all the pilot armor and is not protected. Damage to it will prevent all guns from firing.

 

Best position for attacking the FW-190 is from it’s 3 or 9 o’clock.

Germans inverted dive evasion tactic is most beneficial to us as it immediately exposes all FW-190’s vulnerable areas, namely the fuel tanks and the pilot. Numerous FW-190 fighters have been shot down precisely at the moment they went inverted; planes usually explode in the air when shot down like that. It is however not at all easy to catch the FW-190 right at the precise moment it goes inverted.

 

The rest of the tactics when fighting FW-190 should be no different from any other enemy fighter. Element of surprise and altitude advantage are of course very important, and all other important tactics mentioned above should be considered as well.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited July 30, 2015 by Dakpilot

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Sorry but I am beginning to think that your understanding of aerodynamics and actual flight is at a similar level to  your understandings of engines, now not having experience is one thing, nobody is born with it, but the example set in your "engine response " thread leads me to conclude you are not willing to learn.

 

The 'highly effective controls' I am talking about have been discussed and proven by Han in the FM thread, they give more authority and are able to assert more 'G' than the Russian aircraft

 

This is why it is easier to snap roll or accelerate/negative stall the 109 and 190, I never implied that the 190 is some sort of 'Experten' aircraft merely that the lack of "feel" that you have in game compared to real life easily allows overcontrol and excess energy loss, and needs a gentle touch to get the maximum performance compared to the Yak and LaG, which in game can be yanked about the sky with little detriment

All this is no fault of the FM's but a limitation of the feedback you get in a sim compared to real life.

 

The translation of the WWII Russian instructions on comparative performance between fighters and tactics has been posted many times on these boards I am sure a search will bring it up.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Yeh what's missing with the 109 (versus the 190) is the physical fitness required for a 109 pilot to do the high speed maneuvers we do without a thought in game. I make most of my attacks at ~700 Kph, while the elevator response is modeled the physical aspect isn't. I imagine many pilots wouldn't want to put themselves in such a situation unless they were incredibly strong. I think this is why the 190 was considered to be such a good fighter but that advantage isn't as apparent in game.

[Willy__]

If you let an russian plane close in shooting distance you gonna have problems. That said, I remember that a while a ago (1 or 2 patchs ago), I had a La5 and a Lagg3 follow me in a dive, but they werent in shooting distance. The lagg pulled up earlier than the la5, which kept going. Suddenly when I look behind there was the la5, stalling and then fell to the ground. Later I looked at the track and I saw that he lost one airleron and the rudder on the dive, stalled and couldnt recover because he didnt have any rudder. I would post such track, but after the latest patch all my tracks are broken and I cant view them.

[unreasonable]

Just another thought on the whole dive - escape thing: looking at Le_Hairy's tests, the 190 gets ahead on a shallow dive at 600kph, but by how much?

 

Well the 190 goes from 2000m to 1000m over 111 seconds, the La over 66. What if the La were to dive to 1000m and then fly level at top speed for the remaining 45 seconds?

 

According to my calculations it would be about 600m behind when the 190 reaches 1000m. Perhaps just out of gun range? The La will cover that distance in about 3.5 seconds. So if the 190 starts to slow or turn and lose speed thinking that he should somehow have evaded the La, he has only a few seconds before he realizes his error.

 

Ie the 190 has to keep running for a long time to build up a lead that will allow for maneuver.

Edited July 30, 2015 by unreasonable

[Willy__]

Well the 190 goes from 2000m to 1000m over 111 seconds, the La over 66. What if the La were to dive to 1000m and then fly level at top speed for the remaining 45 seconds?

 

Then you pull to a shallow climb. If the La5 starts to catch up, you level out and go straight until you start to get some distance, after that, its shallow climb.

 

Actually, the procedure to escape any plane with the 190 is pretty simple: You dive (shallow dive, preferably) until you start getting distance from the enemy a/c, then you level out and start a shallow climb. If done right the 190 is able to leave any russian plane behind. If in the climb he starts to catch up to you again, you just level out and keep going until you get distance again, and rinse and repeat.

 

Just keep in mind, I'm not saying the behavior os the russian planes are correct or incorrect (the flaps issue pisses me off), I'm merely stating the correct tactics to avoid being shot. 

 

-edit-

Only problem with this tactic is if you`re fighting Rambo, he somehow manages to hit you from far, far, far away. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by istruba

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Shallow dive, get some separation, and start a high speed climb... nothing can follow you, not even 109s.

 

Sadly, that works only at very low altitude since the 190 climb rate is massively underperforming at the second supercharger speed level.

 

This thread should be moved.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ze_Hairy