Damage Model...?

[Crump]

And i've read pilot accounts from WW1 to the contrary.....

 

 

Post those please and share!

 

It would be interesting to read given the fact the Gnome rotary engine was a total comsumption system that used castor oil.

 

I am sure a pilot flying behind a Liberty did not have this issue so make sure your pilot accounts address the correct engine, please!

Edited February 12, 2013 by Crump

[MiloMorai]

The Liberty used castor oil for lubrication?

[Crump]

Milo,

 

thenorm made the comment in the thread and not you. I would be interested in hearing these stories it was not a laxative.

 

 

 

Figure 5. Rotary Installation and Plumbing

Lubrication

Lubrication of the Gnome was accomplished by

injecting castor oil into the fuel/air mix with a small

pump. Castor oil was used because it could not be

easily dissolved into the gasoline fuel, and because it

possessed lubrication qualities superior to mineral oils

of the day. The lubrication system was a total-loss

type, with over two gallons of castor oil being sprayed

into the air during each hour of engine operation. This

explains why most rotaries were fitted with a threequarters

cowl ring, open at the bottom. The cowl

directed the spray of castor oil, along with sparks from

the exhaust, away from the flammable airplane

structure. In spite of these attempts to deal with the

excess lubricating oil, pilots were still subject to, and in

many cases the victim of, the well-known laxative

qualities of castor oil. Many unscheduled stops and offairfield

landings were credited to the call of nature.

Some pilots reportedly kept a flask of blackberry

brandy as an antidote to the effects of the oil.

 

 

 

http://www.enginehistory.org/Gnome%20Monosoupape.pdf

[DD_fruitbat]

 I would be interested in hearing these stories it was not a laxative.

 

 

what, read my post again, i said i've read pilot accounts of it being a laxative, not read accounts of it not being one......  . seriously......

Edited February 12, 2013 by fruitbat

[migmadmarine]

Alright, I must have been misremembering. 

[MiloMorai]

Alright, I must have been misremembering. 

 

We all make mistakes. At least you manned up about being in error.

[philiped]

Personally.. until  the modders can add some more interesting planes CLoD is out of my interest range and I prefer 1946.  If they could at least add 1941 planes then I would  be flying a lot. I cannot stand planes that  look less dangerous than my dog (the one in the avatar picture)

Sorry, a 109 E-4 doesn't look dangerous? Twin cannons and twin machine guns and you'd still be scared of your dog? 

[Crump]

what, read my post again, i said i've read pilot accounts of it being a laxative, not read accounts of it not being one

 

 

I know fruitbat.  It was not clear that I was secondeding your post in agreement and not disputing it. 

[DD_fruitbat]

rgr, it wasn't very clear from the initial quote.

Edited February 13, 2013 by fruitbat

[Caudron431]

Milo,

 

thenorm made the comment in the thread and not you. I would be interested in hearing these stories it was not a laxative.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.enginehistory.org/Gnome%20Monosoupape.pdf

Thanks for the link, i learn something new everyday when i come here

 

Poor pilots by the way, they really had to love to fly to cope with that: i bet that with such castor oil thing, they quickly mastered landings under heavy pressure ^_^

[LukeFF]

And i've read pilot accounts from WW1 to the contrary.....

 

 

 

Lt Herbert Thompson RNAS "A lot has been made since the war about the effects of the oil from the engines on, shall we say, our digestive systems, I flew various aeroplanes during the war and never once had a problem with it neither do I recall did anyone else. Vomiting before or after a flight was common but that was nerves and not to do with the triplane's engine (although we always blamed it on the boiled eggs the batman supplied us with prior to the patrol)." From the Imperial War Museum Archive.

 

From http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=150762#p150762

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

In Spain We have other diferent style for crash-landing 

This is an HA-1112 "Buch????n" the Spanish Versi????n of Me-109G2 crash landed at Sidi-ifni war near Moroco.

Edited February 17, 2013 by III/JG52_Otto_Mas

[Foobar]

ugly planes deserve to be treated like that

[DD_fruitbat]

lol

[=IRFC=Jorri]

Screenshot by szelljr

 

[FlatSpinMan]

Huge when they're viewed like that, aren't they?

And yes, isn't the Buchon a brutal looking thing?

Why do I only post rhetorical questions?

[Freycinet]

And diarrhea after your flight due to the ingested castor oil... - Yes, a not so much spoken of part of the glorious life of a WWI fighter pilot...

 

Whoa, just popping back into this thread... - Seems I started a right s***storm there...  :-D

[Freycinet]

From http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=150762#p150762

 

This is what the curator of an exhibition in the Smithsonian says about the castor oil -> bowel movements story:

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-11-26/features/9104160995_1_great-war-snoopy-flying-leathernecks

"For example, there`s nothing at all gallant or romantic about diarrhea, a pernicious malady that afflicted virtually all World War I aviators because they flew enveloped in the fumes of the principal engine lubricant of the time: castor oil. To dull its effect, they drank copious amounts of brandy and whiskey, often mixed with milk, which also helped them withstand the intense cold aloft and their own constant and palpable fear."

[AA_Engadin]

And diarrhea after your flight due to the ingested castor oil... - Yes, a not so much spoken of part of the glorious life of a WWI fighter pilot...

 

LOL, the dark - brown - side of the moon 

[DD_fruitbat]

the definition of impossibility - trying to nail diarrhoea to the ceiling, or coming to a universal agreement on a flight sim forum.....

[DD_bongodriver]

the definition of impossibility - trying to nail diarrhoea to the ceiling, or coming to a universal agreement on a flight sim forum.....

 

I disagree....if frozen a splat of diorrhea may be nailed to a ceiling, flight sim communities are homogenous (like diorrhea) and like minded....how could we possibly disagree with each other.....sorry couldn't resist fruitbat.

[DD_fruitbat]

Thats alright, you can make it up by flying in the Stalingrad SEOW, i'll see you next sunday

[NZTyphoon]

This is what the curator of an exhibition in the Smithsonian says about the castor oil -> bowel movements story:

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-11-26/features/9104160995_1_great-war-snoopy-flying-leathernecks

"For example, there`s nothing at all gallant or romantic about diarrhea, a pernicious malady that afflicted virtually all World War I aviators because they flew enveloped in the fumes of the principal engine lubricant of the time: castor oil. To dull its effect, they drank copious amounts of brandy and whiskey, often mixed with milk, which also helped them withstand the intense cold aloft and their own constant and palpable fear."

 

Cold, drunk and s***-scared - what a life!

[LukeFF]

This is what the curator of an exhibition in the Smithsonian says about the castor oil -> bowel movements story:

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-11-26/features/9104160995_1_great-war-snoopy-flying-leathernecks

"For example, there`s nothing at all gallant or romantic about diarrhea, a pernicious malady that afflicted virtually all World War I aviators because they flew enveloped in the fumes of the principal engine lubricant of the time: castor oil. To dull its effect, they drank copious amounts of brandy and whiskey, often mixed with milk, which also helped them withstand the intense cold aloft and their own constant and palpable fear."

 

Sure, but where is he getting that info from? Tom-Cundall is practically a full-time WWI aviation historian who's looked at countless first-person accounts from the war. 

[Crump]

Sure, but where is he getting that info from?

 

 

Pilots and medical science....

 

Castor Oil was used as a laxative for quite some time, LukeFF.

 

 

Castor oil may have a bad rap among people who were force-fed spoonfuls as children, but it's no myth that the tonic has health effects. Now, scientists have elucidated the molecular mechanism of the active ingredient in castor oil, which has been used for thousands of years as a laxative and labor-inducer.

 

 

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/05/just-a-spoonful-of-castor-oil.html

 

 

 

Herbert Thompson RNAS "A lot has been made since the war about the effects of the oil from the engines on, shall we say, our digestive systems, I flew various aeroplanes during the war

 

 

Lots of airplanes during WWI did not use castor oil. Your quote is very general and does not specifically relate to the rotary engines which did use castor oil and a total loss oil system.

[DD_Arthur]

 

Lots of airplanes during WWI did not use castor oil. Your quote is very general and does not specifically relate to the rotary engines which did use castor oil and a total loss oil system.

 

 

 Herbert Thompson flew Sopworth Triplanes with 8 Squadron RNAS.  The Sopworth Triplane was equipped with the same castor oil lubricated, total loss engine as the Camel and Pup.

[Crump]

Maybe he had an extraordinarily strong stomach? 

 

There is no doubt about the effects of Castor Oil.

 

 

Castor oil is used to treat constipation. It may also be used to clean out the intestines before a bowel examination/surgery. Castor oil is known as a stimulant laxative. It works by increasing the movement of the intestines, helping the stool to come out.

 

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-278-Castor+Oil+Oral.aspx?drugid=278&drugname=Castor+Oil+Oral

 

 

Do you have a link or more information about him.  A search for "Herbert Thompson" and 8 Squadron RNAS turns up nothing.

 

I don't know a thing about him and would like to learn more!

 

Thanks!

Edited February 23, 2013 by Crump

[FlatSpinMan]

I'd say the curator of the Smithsonian is fairly reliable.

Regarding the "nailing diarrhea to the ceiling" line of thought, I have happily never encountered that, but at a fish and chip shop in Dunedin, New Zealand, I once ate deep fried milk. If you can deep fry milk, I don't see why you can't nail diarrhea to the ceiling.

 

[DD_Arthur]

 

 

Do you have a link or more information about him.  A search for "Herbert Thompson" and 8 Squadron RNAS turns up nothing.

 

I don't know a thing about him and would like to learn more!

 

Thanks!

 

@Crump, can't find much about him at all.  The quote attributed to him comes from the archive at the Imperial War Museum.  Interestingly, found it very hard to find any primary sources on WW1 pilots suffering from the effects of castor-oil either.  Is this an aviation myth or a reality?

 

 I'm sure the Curator of the Smithsonian is a very great man but if the gist of their exhibition is "Gee-Whizz, did you know the Red Baron was not shot down by a cartoon dog with a musical accompaniment?" then I suspect, on this subject, he dosen't know his ass from his elbow.

 

Can anyone find any primary sources for pilots suffering from the effects of castor-oil inhalation as opposed to oxygen sickness, air-sickness, fear, inhalation of cordite fumes, alchoholism, etc.? 

[DD_bongodriver]

Strange debate really, castor oil has been used as a laxative for a long time, WWI aircraft comonly used castor oil total loss systems which without doubt ended up impinging on anything behind the firewall including the pilots face therefore ingestion was inevitable, the human gut doesn't take much effort to upset from ingesting nasties in any case and I imagine castor oils full of carbon deposit and muck would do the trick.

Edited February 23, 2013 by bongodriver

[DD_fruitbat]

 but at a fish and chip shop in Dunedin, New Zealand, I once ate deep fried milk. If you can deep fry milk, I don't see why you can't nail diarrhea to the ceiling.

 

Wasn't owed by a Scot by any chance, they can deep fry anything, milk, mars bars, bananas.....

[NZTyphoon]

I'd say the curator of the Smithsonian is fairly reliable.

Regarding the "nailing diarrhea to the ceiling" line of thought, I have happily never encountered that, but at a fish and chip shop in Dunedin, New Zealand, I once ate deep fried milk. If you can deep fry milk, I don't see why you can't nail diarrhea to the ceiling.

As a resident of Dunedin I can say that I know a few of the local fish and chip shops; I can testify to one that fries its month old fish and elderly leather chips in well used engine oil *blurcch*, after which a litre of potassium nitrate is poured over the order before being handed to you by someone wearing a full bio suit. Burnt castor oil is nothing compared to this...

 

My local fish and chip shop has battered, deep fried Moro bars on the menu...not bad but I wish they'd take the packaging off before battering and frying.

 

Anyway, back to damage model and WW2 Stalingrad - how did the extreme cold of a Russian  mid-winter (down to -30 C) affect aircraft structures and damage models?

Edited February 24, 2013 by NZTyphoon

[Crump]

Castor oil is generally only on the rotary engines. Total loss system means the oil is dumped overboard after it lubes the valve train.  Castor oil maintains its viscosity over a wide temperature range....once.  After being heated and cooled, it becomes a gel.  That is why castor oil systems are total loss.  Additionally Castor oil has a unique property of not diluting or mixing with gasoline.  That works well in not interfering with combustion and not breaking down the lubrication in the crankcase.  Rotary engines by the nature of their induction system filled the crankcase with gasoline fumes.

 

Most inline and V-engines airplane engines are not total loss systems and used mineral oils. That is not to say they did not burn a considerable amount of oil.  The metalurgy was not developed and the most common scraper ring was the same material as the cylinder wall.  That makes for a very fast wearing cylinder and you wind up with oval bottoms on the barrel.

 

Many of the engines during WWI required hand lubrication of the valve train before flight.  You applied grease directly to the valves before each flight and hoped it was enough for the duration.

 

A friend of mines father actually crashed his Aeronca C-2 because he forgot to grease one cylinder.

[LukeFF]

I'll continue to take the word over a pilot who actually flew rotary-powered aircraft during the war vs. a curator for whom we don't know where he got his information from. As the saying goes, "tell a story long enough, and eventually it becomes the truth."

[FlatSpinMan]

NZ Typhoon - did you see the Warriors' game there? I'd love to go to that stadium. For all it's history, Carisbrook was a bit of a hole of a stadium, especially on the terraces.

 

The shop wasn't Scots'-owned, but it was near the Rob Roy dairy and across the street from Knox Church, so that kind of counts. Pretty sure it's The Phoenix, or maybe The Golden Sun. Used to have an amazingly graffitied Coke sign inside, like an installation art piece.

 

Castor oil!

[Crump]

LukeFF,

 

One opinion does not make a trend.

 

If that stops you up, take a spoonful or two to loosen you up!

 

[NZTyphoon]

NZ Typhoon - did you see the Warriors' game there? I'd love to go to that stadium. For all it's history, Carisbrook was a bit of a hole of a stadium, especially on the terraces.

 

The shop wasn't Scots'-owned, but it was near the Rob Roy dairy and across the street from Knox Church, so that kind of counts. Pretty sure it's The Phoenix, or maybe The Golden Sun. Used to have an amazingly graffitied Coke sign inside, like an installation art piece.

 

Castor oil!

Missed the Warriors unfortunately, but did watch the  Highlanders get thrashed first up by the Chiefs . Opposite Knox Church...um, theres the Taj Mahal, Khmer Satay Noodle House,  Fusion and Capers - no Phoenix or Golden Sun.

[Krupi]

LukeFF,

 

One opinion does not make a trend.

 

If that stops you up, take a spoonful or two to loosen you up!

 

 

Its Luke I think a whole barrel full will be needed to loosen him up

[FlatSpinMan]

This was back in 1997 so it must have changed. Or is further up George St.

 

 

Easy on the 'loosen up' comments.

 

So anyway, damage models in Battle of Stalingrad - wonder what they'll be like.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well I just hope that the visuals of the damage are better than RoF.   I am sick of seeing aircraft nose dive into the ground and behave like toys when they impact.

 

It's something that I have never understood about RoF.  The aircraft have a very good feel of actually having mass when you are "flying" them, but when they hit terra firma it's like the are just paper models with no weight to them at all.

 

WW2 simmers will not be as tolerant of this kind of thing as guys who were waiting since the demise of RB3D for any content at all.