Damage Model...?

[Crump]

 

 

Another damaged prop.

 

From here...

 

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/325/language/fr-FR/Lower-than-a-Snakes-Belly-in-a-Wagon-Rut.aspx

 

 

 

about 12 inches too low in the case of this 64 Squadron Spitfire with shattered wooden blades.

 

 

 

Gotta love wooden propellers!

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

The "where you hit" decals were removed

[Krupi]

It did work, with the later patches in order to improve performance a limit was seton how many bullet holes could be shown at anytime!

[JG1_Pragr]

...

-Electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, lubricant, coolant, fuel, oxygen, ammunition, weapon, flight control, structural and pilot damage.

The depth does not have to be insane. Instead of making a hitbox for each piston, use the entire engine block except for lubricant, coolant and fuel components as one hitbox. From 100-80% health it looses performance, from 80-50% it starts malfunctioning, coughs randomly and will "bleed" health. Below 50% it has serious misfires and a random percentage at which it starts breaking down completely, perhaps even catching fire...

 

 

I think you described the RoF damage model actually. Engine works as one box, oil, fuel and water are another separete ones. Based on how serious the damage is (e.g. in fuel tank case) you can see how fast/slow is your fuel leaking (on the fuel clocks). The same stands for oil and water in cooler. With oil leaking the engine itself is able to working but as soon as you lost all of it the engine died very quickly. Similar stands for coolant (you can lost/evaporate your coolant even by wrong operated cooler). The engine is working even with loosing of coolant until there is not enough water to cool the engine properly. Temperature increase and when you reach a critical point it's game over. Hell once or twice my plane started to burn when I lost all of my oil/water and I overheated the engine 

Edited January 15, 2013 by JG1_Pragr

[Krupi]

Yeah let's scrap everything and add a health bar to boot

 

Let's just forget about the good parts of a certain game and make il2 1946 with just better graphics... in fact let's just spend the money making another generic fps that's where all the money is anyway

Edited January 15, 2013 by JG52Krupi

[StrIke]

Yeah let's scrap everything and add a health bar to boot

 

Let's just forget about the good parts of a certain game and make il2 1946 with just better graphics... in fact let's just spend the money making another generic fps that's where all the money is anyway

 

You seem sarcastic. Come to think of it, i believe that's how IL-2 cliffs of dover's damage system worked aswell. one .303 hit on a generator could be enough to damage it 50%, if you hit it again with .303 it would be 100% which equals failure. When you have an aircraft with maybe 30 components with health % it's NOT your generic FPS. An FPS body has maybe 6 parts (legs, arms, torso, head) and ALL of these deduct health from a common health bar.

 

I am saying CloD bit off more than it could chew on the damage, rof feels a little short. Something inbetween would be perfect.

[Krupi]

Cod did not work like that it was quite complex and very thoroughly researched.

 

I landed in a pfaltz d3 yesterday and it was not a hard landing by any stretch of the imagination yet the aicraft exploded!!

 

Visually RoF DM is fantastic for structure but the system side of things I find rather lacking. This needs to be improved in BoS

Edited January 15, 2013 by JG52Krupi

[JG1_Pragr]

Cod did not work like that it was quite complex and very thoroughly researched.

 

I landed in a pfaltz d3 yesterday and it was not a hard landing by any stretch of the imagination yet the aicraft exploded!!

 

Visually RoF DM is fantastic for structure but the system side of things I find rather lacking. This needs to be improved in BoS

 

In RoF is almost impossible to performed such hard landing so your plane exploded. At least not on airfields or open terrain. Maybe you laned in close vicinity of front line. Then the reason of your explosion could be simple. There are forests on and close to the front line, which are made from the tree trunks (forests destroyed by artillery fire/bombardment). They are sometimes hard to see but if you hit one of those trunks, it's like you would hit the wall. According to where they hit you, your plane can loose wings or even explode if you hit them hard with your nose part at high speed.

Edited January 15, 2013 by JG1_Pragr

[FlatSpinMan]

A smiley does not a post un-sarcastic make. But it does generate flames and antagonism and we ain't goin' that way.

[Doogerie]

it's funny i always find ww2 aircraft much easer to shoot down then ww1 i din't know whay maby it's got somthing to

do with ww2 havng more stuf in them so more fro my bullit's to hit i have deplaed my gun's just trying to down an albtros befor today ia a teribel shot

[FlatSpinMan]

I think the rate of fire of the WWI guns might be a factor, too. I find it very hard to hit anything in RoF. It's fun though.

[Krupi]

In RoF is almost impossible to performed such hard landing so your plane exploded. At least not on airfields or open terrain. Maybe you laned in close vicinity of front line. Then the reason of your explosion could be simple. There are forests on and close to the front line, which are made from the tree trunks (forests destroyed by artillery fire/bombardment). They are sometimes hard to see but if you hit one of those trunks, it's like you would hit the wall. According to where they hit you, your plane can loose wings or even explode if you hit them hard with your nose part at high speed.

Well it was far from the front line and nowhere near a tree, I touched down with a idle throttle very gently and immediately blew up.

[StrIke]

Cod did not work like that it was quite complex and very thoroughly researched.

 

 I would very much like to see the developers' damage technical description if you have it Krupi, but unless you have it, we're all guessing.

 

I actually think CloD damage model was quite simpler than we think, it was just like IL-2 but with more damagable parts. Sure, the spitfire had pneumatic reservoirs that lost pressure when lines were punctured etc, but all of this is EXTREMELY hard to reproduce, with all modifications for all year-models of each plane. Think about it, you would need the entire spitfire pneumatic system theory of operations manual for that. And that's just ONE plane. Maybe modifications were made to improve that system from the Mk.I to the Mk.II spitfire. This is where I mean CloD seriously bit over more than it could chew. They aimed for DCS system fidelity, for over 10 planes! DCS has barely made 3!!

 

It shows where the 109 would leak from BOTH radiators even if only one was hit. Or where the radiators would explode into leak when overheated, but the real thing had relief valves over the engine cowl, that were designed to open to prevent such a design flaw.

 

I also remember being shot in the left 110 wheel, and then the right wheel dropped (uplock failure).

 

I think they got so carried away with the damage system that it became almost impossible to keep at a bug-free realistic level.

 

I would love to have the CloD level of fidelity, but I think it will drown the developers more than we actually benefit from it.

 

I am afraid that the CloD damage model also used a 1-hit disable damage model, where 1 hit to the right place would always cause failure, and all other hits would cause the "airframe damage". In CloD, if the tire was hit, it would explode completely. Think about it; is that realistic? In RoF, a wheel actually takes gradual damage (health principle). If you shoot it a little, it becomes distorted, shoot it more and it starts wobbling, even more and it falls off. In BoS with rubber inflated tires we should absolutely see a version where 100% health = fine. 99% health = starts leaking. The health/pressure directly relates so that once the tire is fully deflated, the health will be lowered to say 20%. The last 20% will show a fully deflated tire. Landing on this will further decrease the health, or taking heavy fire from AA or >20mm. Once it reaches 0% health, it is shredded (like CloD damage looked). This would be down to the bare rims.

 

A system like this is quite "easy" once created, to copy to all other tires for all other aircraft. Same with landing gear, instead of having super high fidelity valves, sequences, tubing, reservoirs and accumulators, we could survive with a simple uplock, downlock, pressure system. If uplock is gone the gear drops by itself, if downlock is gone the gear collapses on ground manouvering, if pressure is damaged the operation is slow, if pressure is lost it does not operate (or gravity drop). I really don't think we need the 3-way valve for the 109, when it all could be put into a one-push toggle button (up/down) instead of up, down, neutral.

 

That's just my take on it. Focus on releasing a game that works first to get players hooked and interested. If the game is a success, the developers could upgrade all planes, like Eagle Dynamics are doing with F-15 in LOMAC FC3. That super 109-experten or Spitfire mechanic decendant stuff is honestly less important to the average player, than the ability to fly and shoot things. First get the demand (launching a successful game based on IL-2 and RoF reputation), then supply (deliver more features, planes, theatres etc.).

Edited January 15, 2013 by StrIke

[JG1_Pragr]

Well it was far from the front line and nowhere near a tree, I touched down with a idle throttle very gently and immediately blew up.

 

Than I have no idea. I haven't experienced something similar what you described. With teh exception of landing inside the destroyed forest on the edge of front line. I hope you were just unlucky and found rare bug.

[SharpeXB]

The damage modeling CoD is great, to a point.
Yet I have never seen a wing come off or a fire or explosion or any effect like that. I realize those were probably rare IRL but when you can park your plane behind another, right in covergence and rip them with huge burst from 8 guns and nothing visible happens?

 

[Crump]

 

with huge burst from 8 guns

 

 

A large number of small holes from rifle caliber machineguns.  Read some of the vulnerability reports, there was a good reason why rifle caliber machineguns were replaced in WWII by cannon and heavy MG's.  The basic gist is from dead astern, rifle caliber MG's have very little chance of resulting in an immediate shoot down.

[6S.Manu]

I agree StrIke; I feel that CloD's damage model greatness was more a myth than reality.

 

I was awaiting for the SDKs, to have a tool made for Damage Model testing, you know, a form with a 3d camera where you can test the weapon by speed/direction...

Edited January 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[SharpeXB]

A large number of small holes from rifle caliber machineguns.  Read some of the vulnerability reports, there was a good reason why rifle caliber machineguns were replaced in WWII by cannon and heavy MG's.  The basic gist is from dead astern, rifle caliber MG's have very little chance of resulting in an immediate shoot down.

Oh I get it. Sure the planes like the early ones in the BoB had these .30 cal guns that didn't pack too much punch.

But CoDs damage model is pretty bogus. I'm not saying every hit should result in an arcade style explosion but it should be believable. I'm not talking a "big burst" I'm saying you can pretty well empty all your guns at a 109 at about 100 yards and it just keeps on flying. I've never so far seen a CoD plane lose more than it's rudder and there's plenty of footage of the BoB where you can see aircraft losing wings, bursting into flames, catching fire. In the end, it's a game, it's entertainment. It needs to be realistic but it also needs to be believable. Nobody is going to set up a test with a real 109 filled with gas and see how many bullets it takes to make it explode (maybe they did back in WWII, that would be intersting) but just make it fun and exciting. I'm sure BoS will do a better job.

Edited January 27, 2013 by SharpeXB

[MiloMorai]

A large number of small holes from rifle caliber machineguns.  Read some of the vulnerability reports, there was a good reason why rifle caliber machineguns were replaced in WWII by cannon and heavy MG's.  The basic gist is from dead astern, rifle caliber MG's have very little chance of resulting in an immediate shoot down.

 

However did the RAf manage shoot down some 1500+ GAF a/c during the BoB using only rifle caiber mgs?

[6S.Manu]

However did the RAf manage shoot down some 1500+ GAF a/c during the BoB using only rifle caiber mgs?

 

"rifle caliber MG's have very little chance of resulting in an immediate shoot down."

 

A damaged german plane had to return to home... and there were no landing fields between England and France.

 

Not taking in account tactics and strategies...

Edited January 28, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Crump]

Absolutely 6S.Manu.  An immediate shootdown does not necessarily mean the plane is not out of action and forced down.

 

Nobody is going to set up a test with a real 109 filled with gas and see how many bullets it takes to make it explode (maybe they did back in WWII, that would be intersting) but just make it fun and exciting.

 

The Bf-109, like all liquid cooled engines was very vulnerable to being shot down.  The vulnerability reports gave a very high chance of achieving a shoot down even with rifle caliber bullets.  Hitting the radiator or cooling system was fatal in terms of operating the aircraft.  While you would not see arcade style explosions nor would the plane disintegrate in some dramatic fashion, it was no longer operational none the less.

 

Soon as the integrity of the cooling system was lost, the pilot was on a timer.  He had to put the airplane down as the engine would sieze once the coolant was expired.

 

It was not an immediate shootdown but the aircraft was out of action all the same.

[SharpeXB]

CoD doesn't seem as bad now that I've got more time on it as my first imprssion of it. You can get spectacular damage to the aircraft occaionally.

[Bearcat]

CoD is not bad at all.. it still has issues.. but if it had been like this upon initial release we probably wou;dn't be here. Water under the bridge really.. The fact that it is better now is a good thing and hopefully someone will pick it up and run with it..

[HippyDruid]

Here's some more Rise of Flight damage in this short clip.

Personally I love the way it's modelled. If BoS has this level of fidelity I will be a Happy Hippy Druid.

 

Cliffs of Dover also has a very nice damage model, I might even do a destruction clip for it when I have some more time.

 

[Freycinet]

I'm seeing plenty of catastrophic damage in CoD. Just today I saw a Spittie going down like a falling leaf with two thirds of one wing shot off. I'd say I see catastrophic damage in about 5 percent of kills, less when it comes to RAF kills, more when it comes to LW kills.

 

Don't know why some in here speak of CoD in past tense. There are more people than ever flying it and a big mod coming up which will improve many aspects, even adding a 109 variant.

 

For those who enjoy seeing a banged up Spit my next movie should be fun... ;-)

[sturmkraehe]

I think the Clod damage model was great. In particular the functional damage was very much appreciated. Hitting a hydraulic line should above all cause some malfunctions and that was fairly well presented in Clod.

 

RoF has a nice graphical presentation of damage to the structure but the damage model of the engine is imho just: hit to the engine = oil on screen and seizure of the engine after x seconds. That's it. No breaking of strings to rudder or elevator, no coolant fluid losses, ...

 

I hope BoS will be more like Clod and less like RoF in this respect.

[AndyJWest]

 no coolant fluid losses, ...

 

RoF models this (where appropriate) - it usually takes time to make itself apparent. The engine temperature climbs, and then the engine quits...

[Krupi]

Yeah, you get oil on your face the engine dies and before you get to even land your already chalked up as a kill.... 

[Kling]

Yeah, you get oil on your face the engine dies and before you get to even land your already chalked up as a kill....

This is one of the biggest bugs in ROF imho. I can get critical damage and if i ditch on any field before my engine quits im not registered as a kill. But if i try to make it home and the engine quits due to the damage im registred as a kill. Even if i manage to land at my field. In Rof u are shot down when ur engine quits no matter if u have landed at homebase and are taxing in to the hangar when it quits.

[VeryOldMan]

This is one of the biggest bugs in ROF imho. I can get critical damage and if i ditch on any field before my engine quits im not registered as a kill. But if i try to make it home and the engine quits due to the damage im registred as a kill. Even if i manage to land at my field. In Rof u are shot down when ur engine quits no matter if u have landed at homebase and are taxing in to the hangar when it quits.

 

 

Would not call it a bug, but more as an incomplete feature

 

WW2  planes are more complex beasts and will need a bit more work on damage model department... do not think  the new team  does not  know that... 

[Shagnasty]

I'm seeing plenty of catastrophic damage in CoD. Just today I saw a Spittie going down like a falling leaf with two thirds of one wing shot off. I'd say I see catastrophic damage in about 5 percent of kills, less when it comes to RAF kills, more when it comes to LW kills.

 

Don't know why some in here speak of CoD in past tense. There are more people than ever flying it and a big mod coming up which will improve many aspects, even adding a 109 variant.

 

For those who enjoy seeing a banged up Spit my next movie should be fun... ;-)

 

Got any more details on this mod please? TY

[flyingjulez]

Does RoF have tree collision?

[=IRFC=Jorri]

Yes.

[Zmaj76]

Got any more details on this mod please? TY

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?93-General-Discussion

[VeryOldMan]

I'm seeing plenty of catastrophic damage in CoD. Just today I saw a Spittie going down like a falling leaf with two thirds of one wing shot off. I'd say I see catastrophic damage in about 5 percent of kills, less when it comes to RAF kills, more when it comes to LW kills.

 

Don't know why some in here speak of CoD in past tense. There are more people than ever flying it and a big mod coming up which will improve many aspects, even adding a 109 variant.

 

For those who enjoy seeing a banged up Spit my next movie should be fun... ;-)

 

Personally.. until  the modders can add some more interesting planes CLoD is out of my interest range and I prefer 1946.  If they could at least add 1941 planes then I would  be flying a lot. I cannot stand planes that  look less dangerous than my dog (the one in the avatar picture)

Edited February 11, 2013 by VeryOldMan

[NZTyphoon]

I think the Clod damage model was great. In particular the functional damage was very much appreciated. Hitting a hydraulic line should above all cause some malfunctions and that was fairly well presented in Clod.

 

RoF has a nice graphical presentation of damage to the structure but the damage model of the engine is imho just: hit to the engine = oil on screen and seizure of the engine after x seconds. That's it. No breaking of strings to rudder or elevator, no coolant fluid losses, ...

 

I hope BoS will be more like Clod and less like RoF in this respect.

I haven't played RoF - do you get the smell of burned castor oil and an oily film across the face?  

[Freycinet]

And diarrhea after your flight due to the ingested castor oil... - Yes, a not so much spoken of part of the glorious life of a WWI fighter pilot...

[migmadmarine]

I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to castor oil vapor not being a terribly effective laxative  where as it is when drunk as a liquid, which would make the pilot with the runs thing a myth...

[DD_fruitbat]

I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to castor oil vapor not being a terribly effective laxative  where as it is when drunk as a liquid, which would make the pilot with the runs thing a myth...

 

And i've read pilot accounts from WW1 to the contrary.....

[MiloMorai]

And i've read pilot accounts from WW1 to the contrary.....

 

Me also. If one spends 2 hours inhaling castor oil vapour, that would be a lot of castor oil.