Bomber navigation

[Meteor2]

My favorite planes are He-111 and Ju-88, because a like to fly with instruments, too.

In this forum, I have never read something about bomber navigation, but maybe somebody knows a little bit more...

 

In CoD we had (not perfect, but more than basics were implemented) the possiblity to navigate with PATIN-equipment and with beacons, too. The instrument on the right in the He-111 cockpit is the main tool here. I think, the CoD-designers had planned a lot in this regard, but it is not 100% working in its current state.

 

Do we have any information about the details or the possiblities in BoS ?
Navigation in bad weather or darkness has to rely on instrument flight, so I am very excited to see the implementation in this
new simulation.

[YoYo]

Level bombig is nice. In CoD was ok but Ju-88 and He-111 has a some instrument bugs. Hope it will be possible in BoS, but in RoF is present so I think Yes !

[Finkeren]

I wouldn't count on advanced navigational aids being in BoS, and definately not in the spring 2014 release. I'm just hoping for historically accurate bomb sights along the way (won't be in release either AFAIK, we'll get a generic type like in RoF).

Edited October 22, 2013 by Finkeren

[Meteor2]

If it is only very basic, how will we navigate in bad weather or with limited visibility ?

Would be a dissapointment, if BoS falls back here in comparison to the unfinished CoD...

[Finkeren]

If it is only very basic, how will we navigate in bad weather or with limited visibility ?

 

Simple: We won't.

 

It's not even particularly unrealistic. Operational flying on the Eastern Front was often scrubbed due to poor visibility.

 

As nice as it would be to have those navigational aids, there are going to be bigger issues to fix, once the game launches.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Simple: We won't.

 

It's not even particularly unrealistic. Operational flying on the Eastern Front was often scrubbed due to poor visibility.

 

As nice as it would be to have those navigational aids, there are going to be bigger issues to fix, once the game launches.

Sounds like some one who has never done night missions on IL2?

With out working instruments you would never reach your target, and

yes I mean flying when it is pitch black!

This was possible in IL2

 

But you had to rely on your instruments.

 

With "bigger issues" I guess you mean only fighter related problems, as Bombers are such a minor topic in WWII?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Lord_Haw-Haw

[Meteor2]

Thanks, Lord Haw Haw.

That was my first thought, too.

Why are bombers of minor importance in comparison to the fighters ?

I think, the bomber fliers would like to have the same amount of detail and love to details than their one-engine counterparts.

So, please do not forget the bombers.

[Finkeren]

Sounds like some one who has never done night missions on IL2?

With out working instruments you would never reach your target, and

yes I mean flying when it is pitch black!

This was possible in IL2

 

But you had to rely on your instruments.

 

With "bigger issues" I guess you mean only fighter related problems, as Bombers are such a minor topic in WWII?

Cut the crap, seriously!

 

First: Of course bombers are important. I look very much forward to flying bombers and recons in BoS. Just two posts ago I expressed my desire to have historically correct bomb sights in BoS. 

 

I've flown plenty of night missions in the old IL2, but guess what? The old IL2 didn't have a working beacon system either. For blind flying you ofc had to rely on instruments, but these were just as simplified in IL2 as they're going to be in BoS. Which instruments that were present in the old IL2 are you suggesting we won't have in BoS?

 

The screen shot you posted is a very poor example BTW: The snowy ground makes it fairly easy to navigate using land marks which stand out against the white. Just as we will have in clear weather in BoS. The issue is navigating in overcast or hazy conditions which might pose a problem.

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Right bud one for the ignore list, you haven´t a clue.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

team daidalos made radionavigation possible in Il2 some patches ago.

Also they improved the commands in a bomberflight a lot ( keep bombs, release bombs together with leader).

They introduced the more comlex fuzing in Il2.

 

In the actual version, IL2'46 gives a lot to bomberpilots flying singleplayer and COOP. I hope 777 has the time to look into these features!

 

And about bombsight ( not all RoF bombsights look the same and has the same features btw......), i like the RoF system when 'looking' through the optic, having all levers and knobs around, beeing able to use the mouse without need to remember a lot of shortcuts!

Sure, the bombsights should work and have the features as the real ones - as example, automatik bombing only for the He111 sight.

 

We will see what loft eill give us.......

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Simple: We won't.

 

It's not even particularly unrealistic. Operational flying on the Eastern Front was often scrubbed due to poor visibility.

 

As nice as it would be to have those navigational aids, there are going to be bigger issues to fix, once the game launches.

?????

 

Won't you just do it like they did back in the day? Dead reckoning.

 

You can even print out a computer from the net!

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Finkeren]

?????

 

Won't you just do it like they did back in the day? Dead reckoning.

 

You can even print out a computer from the net!

Dead reckoning is fine, if the conditions permit it, but try doing it in the old IL2 with strong winds in a thunderstorm (such as the career puts you in from time to time). I have torn out my hair in frustration trying to calculate ground speed, when I had close to zero visibility. I personally am not a very skilled navigator (sure would like to improve though) and I imagine, that most BoS players won't bother with learning dead reckoning, especially given the relatively short missions we're gonna see in BoS. If some people can do it, more power to them, I envy their dedication.

 

Please note, that I'm not talking about simply flying at night. A clear night over a snow covered landscape is perfect for flying dead reckoning (though you could also navigate simply by landmarks). I'm only talking about flying in weather with really poor visibility.

[Meteor2]

I am glad, that I am not the only one, interessted in this.

And this "Dead reckoning" is a very interessting topic, where you can learn, that the simple

"find the fighter and shoot him down" (please apologize, dear fighter pilots) is not the only purpose

of the sim...

I do hope, that the bombers are getting similar attention.

 

Finkeren: Do you have a good book about the topic as a recommendation ?

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

I am glad, that I am not the only one, interessted in this.

And this "Dead reckoning" is a very interessting topic, where you can learn, that the simple

"find the fighter and shoot him down" (please apologize, dear fighter pilots) is not the only purpose

of the sim...

I do hope, that the bombers are getting similar attention.

 

Finkeren: Do you have a good book about the topic as a recommendation ?

Well these are the things I have been using when I was flying for KG 30 on IL2

 

As to unique Landmarks in IL2, not really a lot of times it was rather generic and repeated it self fairly often. This is something that I hope will be improved in BoS, as it would make navigation a lot easier.

[Meteor2]

Hello Lord_Haw_Haw,

 

have you build these utilities ? If yes, very nice !

The above seems to be the "Dreieckrechner" of the Luftwaffe.

(reference: D/Luft 1255/1 Leitfaden der Flugnavigation, 1940)

 

Do you have a plan for them, how to build ?

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Hello Lord_Haw_Haw,

 

have you build these utilities ? If yes, very nice !

The above seems to be the "Dreieckrechner" of the Luftwaffe.

(reference: D/Luft 1255/1 Leitfaden der Flugnavigation, 1940)

 

Do you have a plan for them, how to build ?

No they are originals, just check ebay.de every now and then there are always some there.

[Finkeren]

Finkeren: Do you have a good book about the topic as a recommendation ?

The other guys commenting here can propably help you better than I can. I'm by no means very knowledgeable when it comes to navigation as it happens IRL.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Finkeren

[Sokol1]

 The old IL2 didn't have a working beacon system either. For blind flying you ofc had to rely on instruments, but these were just as simplified in IL2 as they're going to be in BoS. Which instruments that were present in the old IL2 are you suggesting we won't have in BoS?

Depends on what "old IL2"...

 

In Il-2'46 Patch 4.10 introduced radionavigation that can be done by Beacon antennas, Morse Code and AM Radio signal (bonus: you hear some music ), and Blinding Landing System.

Cl*D have Beacons and Long Range signal, that work OK, but Blinding Landing System is almost useless due too narrow radio signal...

 

This last have a good "autopilot" -  Kurssteureung... in German planes (TF 4.0 add of his some commands in Blenheim and Br.20 to aid level bombing) that control rudder, or rudder/elevator/aileron.

 

At least this last hope to have in BoS. This allow for example, fly to Stalingrad under low ceiling/visibility.

And is not a "hit X to fly leveled"...

 

Sokol1

Edited October 22, 2013 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Thanks to VO101_Tom:

 

NL7 (to Russian language click on "red star")

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/stories/elmelet_navigacio/nl7/nl7_v3.swf

 

DR3 to print and assembly:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/260-dr-tarcsa-nyomtathato-verzio.html

 

in Flash to practice:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/259-dr-tarcsa-flash-verzio.html

 

But you are right "most BoS players won't bother with learning dead reckoning," or care about Beacon, Morse Code, Lorenz...

 

Sokol1

Edited October 22, 2013 by Sokol1

[EAF_Paf]

Thanks to VO101_Tom:

 

NL7 (to Russian language click on "red star")

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/images/stories/elmelet_navigacio/nl7/nl7_v3.swf

 

DR3 to print and assembly:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/260-dr-tarcsa-nyomtathato-verzio.html

 

in Flash to practice:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/259-dr-tarcsa-flash-verzio.html

 

But you are right "most BoS players won't bother with learning dead reckoning," or care about Beacon, Morse Code, Lorenz...

 

Sokol1

wow!

Edited October 22, 2013 by EAF_Paf

[Sokol1]

Just to illustrate possibilities, since Cl+D is a Steam game, using Steam Browser overly one can use this web Flash DR3 in game (like you use Bombsight Table, Shturmam, Bombs Calc in il-2'46).

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/7pod.jpg/

 

For a bomber pilot ideally is BoS come with  "map tools" like see in Cl+D but improved, this lack ability to draw permanent  lines over in game map,  and one these "Flight Computer".

 

BTW - E6-B is cheap on eBay, but if anyone want do some "papercraft model": http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=18091

 

Sokol1

Edited October 22, 2013 by Sokol1

[Meteor2]

Hello Sokol1,

 

thats great ! Unfortunately, the link on Tom`s webside with the short english manual is not there.

Do you have another source for this ?

I will try to build a DR3 for myself.

 

Very good information.

Lets hope, that bombers are well presented in BoS.

[Crow]

You can't go wrong with the old E6B. That thing has been in service since before WWII and is still used by pilots to this very day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E6B

 

I taught student pilots to use this one for years and they're pretty good quality for the price (you might be able to find a cheaper one so look around): http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/2233

 

As far as navigation without radio beacons, there are two main methods--pilotage and dead reckoning. I would suggest reading the FAA's text on it here: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/

 

Chapter 15 is on navigation. The whole book is really good though. This is what the FAA expects you to know as a certificated pilot in the US.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Crow

[Dakpilot]

I am ignorant on this subject, what sort of navigational Radio aids/beacons were historically available to Luftwaffe pilots, and in what quantity in 1942/3, around the Stalingrad  theater of operations?

 

I hope some thought is given to radio navigation even if it will only appear later in this series.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Feathered_IV]

Bombers get handled very poorly by flight sim developers and very little imagination is shown in the way they are implemented. No navigator to give you a course. No bomb-aimer to guide you in on the bomb run and drop the ordnance. Not much of anything to really simulate the role of a multi crew aircraft. It's no wonder most players just treat them like Jabos and go trucking in at 50ft.

[Dakpilot]

That is a very valid point, in reality a Navigator is a very skilled part of the crew, some sort of virtual navigator would be a really good inclusion when they were historically available in a particular A/C model

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crow]

Bombers get handled very poorly by flight sim developers and very little imagination is shown in the way they are implemented. No navigator to give you a course. No bomb-aimer to guide you in on the bomb run and drop the ordnance. Not much of anything to really simulate the role of a multi crew aircraft. It's no wonder most players just treat them like Jabos and go trucking in at 50ft.

It's all about cost vs. benefit. These features are extremely expensive to implement and a large percentage of players won't ever notice that they are gone. If you want the best bomber crew experience, I've always found B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty Eighth was the best sim around. As far as the experience of a pilot level bombing a target over Western Europe, I don't think anyone has ever done better. Note that it required an entire team making a specific game about the subject to implement the features you're requesting. There's no way a sample sim like IL-2 can hope to do that for its initial launch.

[Dakpilot]

Very true, to that extent, but in original IL-2 all the info a "virtual" Navigator would give you is already there, minimap, radio request for heading to target, to base etc. a very basic interface to access this info as seen from a navigator point of view would be easy to implement, while keeping settings at full real for A/C without a navigator

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Skoshi_Tiger]

 It's no wonder most players just treat them like Jabos and go trucking in at 50ft.

Ah! The good days of Il2! Skip bombing with a B-29!

Edited October 24, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Feathered_IV]

Ah! The good days of Il2! Skip bombing with a B-29!

 

Perhaps the challenges for designing a virtual crew aren't that insurmountable.  The computer always knows where the player is on the map, and the waypoints and target contained in a mission.  It wouldn't be beyond the imagination to "ask" the navigator for a course to the next waypoint (after a suitable pause), or have them chime in when you stray too far off course.  The computer likewise knows where the target icon has been placed, allowing a virtual bomb aimer to guide you in on the bomb run once you're in range.  Maybe even refuse to drop when you are too far off the mark...

There's no reason a flight engineers voice wouldn't point out when the engines are overheating either.  Much better than the one-man band that every developer has left us with since the days of Microprose . 

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

 

Perhaps the challenges for designing a virtual crew aren't that insurmountable.  The computer always knows where the player is on the map, and the waypoints and target contained in a mission.  It wouldn't be beyond the imagination to "ask" the navigator for a course to the next waypoint (after a suitable pause), or have them chime in when you stray too far off course.  The computer likewise knows where the target icon has been placed, allowing a virtual bomb aimer to guide you in on the bomb run once you're in range.  Maybe even refuse to drop when you are too far off the mark...

There's no reason a flight engineers voice wouldn't point out when the engines are overheating either.  Much better than the one-man band that every developer has left us with since the days of Microprose . 

Have to agree, it is a shame that bombers are just treated like left overs. The age old excuse about bombers taking up the resorces for three fighters, many dedicated bomber

pilots can not hear any more! For many it seems to be pure soliciting to the fighter fans, so that some do not even bother looking into flight sims any more, as they have the feeling, they are not wanted as clients. That is an impression that a few old friends of mine have that used to fly only bombers. That they have dropped flight sims totally and gone to sims with space ships. Which is a shame. As a bomber fan you some times have the feeling, you are not that welcome, because you are not into the aircraft that are so en vogue with the main stream customers. Mind you I have nothing against fighters, sure they look nice, but a bomber will always interest me more. As I enjoy the challenge of flying a big sluggish aircraft against those fast and manouverable aircraft, and still somehow manage to reach my target and get back again. It is a differant kind of flying, it needs patience, which seems to be a rare habbit? You have to think like when you are playing chess, what are the others most likely going to do? How do I avoid them, so that they do not see me? This is not the kind of play for those who want fast results, and action from take off to landing.

[Finkeren]

 

Perhaps the challenges for designing a virtual crew aren't that insurmountable. The computer always knows where the player is on the map, and the waypoints and target contained in a mission. It wouldn't be beyond the imagination to "ask" the navigator for a course to the next waypoint (after a suitable pause), or have them chime in when you stray too far off course. The computer likewise knows where the target icon has been placed, allowing a virtual bomb aimer to guide you in on the bomb run once you're in range. Maybe even refuse to drop when you are too far off the mark...

There's no reason a flight engineers voice wouldn't point out when the engines are overheating either. Much better than the one-man band that every developer has left us with since the days of Microprose .

+1

 

This should definately be doable. Perhaps not for launch in the spring but as further development along the way.

[Sokol1]

I am ignorant on this subject, what sort of navigational Radio aids/beacons were historically available to Luftwaffe pilots, and in what quantity in 1942/3, around the Stalingrad  theater of operations?

 

I hope some thought is given to radio navigation even if it will only appear later in this series.

 

 

 

In (1940) BoB German use Knickebein and X-Gerat navigation radio aid systems.

 

Why in 1942 they would not have radio navigation equipment of their bombers?

 

Think is Peilgerät (PeilG) 6

 

1942 He.111 manual for airborne radio system.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/124221716/Heinkel-He-111-H-6-Flugzeug-Hanbuch-Teil-9-D-Bordfunkanlage-September-1942

 

Anyway is already stated that release version of BoS dont not come with any of that. So look at compass and hit "X".

 

Sokol1

Edited October 24, 2013 by Sokol1

[Meteor2]

... but looking at this discussion, I would rate it as very useful.
Maybe we cannot expect more than basics in the first release, but there are fortunately some bomber fans left and
they are trying to shift the balance a little bit towards their planes.    

[[DBS]El_Marta]

What I really would appreciate are crew stations for the bombardier and the navigator similar to the gui we get in U-Boot sims like Silent Hunter III modded.

In the early stages it does not have to be the actual historical instruments, but some more or less generic functionality like we already see it in ROF.

 

For the bombardier a GUI implementing the functionality of the Bombsight table2 or the PAL Hud config bombassist mod for il2  plus drift or wind correction (like in ROF or B17 the mighty eight) would be very nice.

 

For the navigator or the map some basic plotting tools like a cursor with a compas degree circle, a ruler to draw flightpaths and calculators for wind drift, fuel consumtion, flight time a.s.o.  and the DR tools mentioned above are something to wish for.

 

The icing on the cake would be seperate crew positions for pilot, bombardier and navigator in a multicrew online scenario.

 

Attractive Bombers (2 seater Spotters in ROF) do a great job in rising the general flight altitude in a multiplayer scenario with mission goals.

Edited October 25, 2013 by El_Marta

[Meteor2]

El_Marta, that would be fine, but at this moment, I would be glad to see:

- a map with a tool (improved to current CoD; more like SH IV) to plot courses, calculate angles and times.

- a set of navigation instruments as close as possible to the originals (PATIN for He-111; improved above CoD level) 

- a realistic bombing instrument (Lotfe 7)

 

And for the russian bomber a similar equipment, of course.

 

But maybe its a hope only.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

That is a point, especially if you remembert that SHIII world is a cylinder and not a ball.

 

The problem of the "altitude angle" as you show it is compenssated by gravity and the altimeter that keep you in a concentric orbit. The distances in our flight sim are much smaller than the transcontinental operations in SH, thus a flat model of mother earth seems to be sufficient as far as I can see atm.

Edited October 25, 2013 by El_Marta

[Meteor2]

You are right. In our small BoS-world it will not make a real difference whether the world is flat or a ball. 

And probably nobody will do bomber flights of 5 hours in the Pacific, where it would matter.

 

I do only hope, that BoS will meet CoD standards in this regard, at least.

CoD wasn`t bad there. The developers only had not finished the task.

Hopfully BoS will deliver a more or less complete solution here...

[Recon]

You are right. In our small BoS-world it will not make a real difference whether the world is flat or a ball. 

And probably nobody will do bomber flights of 5 hours in the Pacific, where it would matter.

 

I do only hope, that BoS will meet CoD standards in this regard, at least.

CoD wasn`t bad there. The developers only had not finished the task.

Hopfully BoS will deliver a more or less complete solution here...

 

I level bomb at 5km+ in He111 all the time in COD (TF 3.01 and 4.0) using the instruments, etc... works fine.  Actually, works better than IL2:1946.  

 

I have also level bombed in Gotha and Handley Page in RoF - I enjoyed it as well.  COD was more complex, but once you figure it out it was fun and easy to do.   The WW1 bombers are so slow, it will be nice to have some ww2 planes to bomb in   

 

Personally, I like it when the game has the conversion charts in it like RoF, I want to spend my time bombing, not doing math equations  

 

So, I look forward to bombing in BoS.  More important even than the equipment is more how the game itself plays out in missions.  I enjoy the missions in RoF where you have to take out all the targets to win the map.  That game play setup is what will make it competitive and challenging!   What was wrong in RoF was that everyone was racking up points flying on the deck destroying targets, I think the flak should have ripped them apart - I would take the time to climb to alt and bomb the target (with wind, etc...) - that was the challenge.  The missions and games should reward the pilots who do it 'right'

Edited October 26, 2013 by AKA_Recon

[Meteor2]

Absolutely right. Hopefully the mission are well designed and it wll make sence to fly the heavies.

Escort missions for fighters has to be rewarded in some way, too. That will make it more feasable, that they will happen.