General questions (and criticise) about BOS/ BOM

[Scheintot]

Hi there!

 

I hope I've choosen the right forum section to ask.

I've just registered and haven't bought IL2 BOS yet. So I am brand new to the forum (hello guys!), but not to the IL2 series. I have played IL2 1946 and IL2 CoD so far.

 

I'm thinking about to buy IL2 BOS because I want to have a good combatflightsimulator. I am also aware of the hard work and good results in IL2 BOS! Thanks to Youtube of course.

But I have to criticise the price for everything you have released so far, except for the basic game which would be normal without the two additional planes.

As I've understood IL 2 BOS has two seperate planes which also cost a lot. Two planes for a real high price.

I don't want to blame/hate you for it. I think I can understand the situation that people who have preordered the game (and supported the company with it) should have something unique but the problem is the limitation to other guys later on AND the limitation you do to yourself. I will explain this soon.

 

I realy want to support you guys but I don't want to have the feeling to get "forced" to it. Either to buy a high- price plane or not. Everyone who loves ww2 simulators can't realy say no to that two planes and I think everyone can understand that.

Also there is BoM announced and again, some premium fighters. 

As I see there is no FW 190 in the pack. I hate to say it but I think it has something to do with the premium/preorder story which I have just mentioned.

I don't think you realy want to rip peoples money off, I realy don't. But I think you have limited yourself by that "premium /preorder" politics.

If you release a FWA5 (or what so ever) people who bought the 18€ FWA3 would just complain about it because it was a high price to pay. Even when it is a good quality FM and model. I think you get my idea. To come towards some people, I can imagine that a few people will probably answer they can live with that...

 

My suggestion for the future (even if nobody minds, to say it cannot hurt anyone).

If you want to maintain the DLC Preorder politics you could make the package bigger.

17-18€ for just one plane don't make me realy want to have it. But may a few more planes would. I say it carefully again: I know it is a lot of work to do. I know it and I respect it!

But I get my money somehow too and pay it to you. Actually I will.

As an example, you all probably have seen the criticise... or lets say the comments on steam to that two additional planes. I think somehow I can understand both camps here.

 

Enough said about my criticise about the politics...

 

As I have understood BOM is an additional addon which comes with a new map and new planes, also two premium planes, right? Possible to buy/preorder it on steam?

 

 

Next question:

 

Are the developers thinking to change the theatre in the future? I could imagine that everyone or at least a high number of people (me included) are interest to fight against a A6M2 (or another zero) in a F4U, Hellcat, P40 or what so ever.

 

Also it would be good to see the ocian in IL2 again, right?

 

To get stuck just in a winter theatre is not that what I realy want.

 

I would like to buy BOS/BOM when there is a future to get with it.

Actually not Activisions Call of Duty politics, where every year another game comes out. I would like to see a company which is actually continue the work on their foundation which they have developed. Starting small, ending big. Simple said. Remember the old days? It was normal back then regarding to video games.

 

 

 

Okay. Enough said.

 

Greets.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Scheintot

[No601_Prangster]

If your worried about the price then wait for the next sale. You could have brought it half price during the last Steam sale.

[Y-29.Silky]

They have Steam sales. Fw-190's never fought in Battle of Moscow so that's why you don't see one in the new pack. As for theaters, who know's, I'm guessing either Kuban or the Mediterranean. 


 

[Rjel]

As far as the price of the game(s) goes, it's much like anything in life when one has to choose if it represents a reasonable value. There were/are no other perks available to those who pre-ordered BoS save getting access at the earliest possible date. We all bought at full price and I think the vast majority have been happy having done so. I know I have been. As was mentioned earlier, if price is a major concern, keep an eye open for the sales. Or as a last resort, hope some generous soul gives away a copy as has happened several times.

[Sokol1]

Buy the basic version and wait some sales - in the last the 'PREMIUM" planes was sold be 10$.

 

The FW 190 is fiction over Stalingrad and the LaGG dont make difference. You can have fun without then.

 

But if you want "OP" planes, is like WT, pay for then. 

[Matt]

 

 

If you release a FWA5 (or what so ever) people who bought the 18€ FWA3 would just complain about it because it was a high price to pay. Even when it is a good quality FM and model. I think you get my idea. To come towards some people, I can imagine that a few people will probably answer they can live with that...

I highly doubt that they would sell a A-5 seperately. They would rather add it to the standard planeset of their next expansion (like they did with the F-2, Il-2 and Pe-2 in BoM).

 

 

 

I don't want to blame/hate you for it. I think I can understand the situation that people who have preordered the game (and supported the company with it) should have something unique but the problem is the limitation to other guys later on AND the limitation you do to yourself. 

Preorders got a 10 EUR discount, they still had to pay extra for the two premium planes.

[SharpeXB]

When you consider the value of a game like this, comparisons to other flight sims might not be relevant.

In the case of 1946 you're looking at a game that was made in a different era when this type of product was exponentially easier to make. It's a comparison of quantity vs quality. BoS doesn't necessarily offer you less for your money because everything you're getting, maps, aircraft, game engine, is much more sophisticated and detailed.

Looking at Cliffs of Dover you need to keep in mind that despite its seeming abundance of content, it was not financially successful for its developer and therefore not a good example to compare to.

The price you're paying for BoS comes about to $9/plane which is very reasonable today. And every flight sim today sells at least some of its aircraft individually. DCS ranges anywhere from $10 to $50 and War Thunder ranges up to $26 I think. The new BoS maps which are coming will actually be free of charge. So BoS is right in the ballpark where value is concerned.

Edited July 3, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Scheintot]

When you consider the value of a game like this, comparisons to other flight sims might not be relevant.

In the case of 1946 you're looking at a game that was made in a different era when this type of product was exponentially easier to make. It's a comparison of quantity vs quality. BoS doesn't necessarily offer you less for your money because everything you're getting, maps, aircraft, game engine, is much more sophisticated and detailed.

Looking at Cliffs of Dover you need to keep in mind that despite its seeming abundance of content, it was not financially successful for its developer and therefore not a good example to compare to.

The price you're paying for BoS comes about to $9/plane which is very reasonable today. And every flight sim today sells at least some of its aircraft individually. DCS ranges anywhere from $10 to $50 and War Thunder ranges up to $26 I think. The new BoS maps which are coming will actually be free of charge. So BoS is right in the ballpark where value is concerned.

 

IL2 1946 has two addons which are build on the foundation. Also we have had mod support and dynamic campaigns which have changed the game over time by far.

Without mod support IL2 1946 would not have the given success.

Why mod support is not given to the community? A lot of people would probably give us a lot of different variations of planes. It was never to complicated for a community to create modifications/addons and there always were people who did it. Compared to a community like Arma. I have my criticise there too but that's a different thing.

 

Yes the map is probably big and detailed too, but the maps of IL2 1946 were not THAT bad. There were fine for the purpose, they were and they still are. Also who needs a detailed compound on the ground with chairs and detailed stuff when you're fighting five KMs above? Haven't people mentioned that they are totaly against controllable tanks? Then why a compound needs to be detailed? THAT detailed?

A detailed map is always nice to see don't get me wrong but in a flight simulator that should not be the focus. Content regarding to planes and theatres should. And that is the only thing what has changed so far.

 

The price of the premium planes are at 17€ for one plane. So it is impossible that one plane in BOS costs 9$. I've already mentioned that the maingame is not to much. The premium planes are my problem. One plane for a high price, I can just repeat myself and point my finger to the first post. More content for that price would be absolutly okay.

 

With the new map free of charge you are speaking of BoM, right?

If yes, that is good news but whats about all the new planes?

 

 

Also a lot of people here probably have not understood my point. It is not just about the price, it is more the content for that price. Which does not mean that the content which is given is bad. It is just not that much. Also the question is about the future of IL2.

 

The situation would be better with mod support in my opinion. First of all the developers could see what people like or want and the game/ foundation which has created can grow by the community and the developers. Something like this is probably not happening.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Scheintot

[FuriousMeow]

Il2:1946 is 7 years of development. There were 6 releases of the Il-2 series prior to 1946. All told, that's a couple hundred dollars if you purchased from Il2 v1.0 till the end, 1946, like I did. The first Il-2 release had very little, far less than BoS. It took years to get 1946 to where it's at so 1946 isn't comparable to BoS until BoS has had 7 years of development and many releases adding content.

 

There were no mods prior to the sound mod/hack. There simply was no way to add in content without the developers adding it in up until the sound mod/hack that came out after 1946. When that came out, that's when individuals could freely mod and also when I stopped playing it. It was not the developers that released this, it was not supported by the developers, it was a hack and it seriously pissed off Oleg.

 

The dynamic campaign was developed by Starshoy as a plugin using hooks. There was no developer intervention to create the dynamic campaign, they only added it into the game after Il-2:Forgotten Battles but Starshoy did all of the work and he was not part of the developer team. That is fully capable here if someone were to build it, but no one has.

 

The cost and pricing structure is set for the series, aside from sales they aren't going to change it. It is a very good value for the entertainment it provides.

Edited July 3, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[6./ZG26_Emil]

It's not one free map there are two more seasons for both Stalingrad and Velikiye Luki coming if I understand correctly. Also they are working on a Murmansk map so they are producing free content for people who have paid for the sim, I find that very reasonable and considering I've had hundreds of hours of fun out of my 90 bucks or what ever it was I would say that already I have had my money's worth.

[Scheintot]

Il2:1946 is 7 years of development. There were 6 releases of the Il-2 series prior to 1946. All told, that's a couple hundred dollars if you purchased from Il2 v1.0 till the end, 1946, like I did.

 

There were no mods prior to the sound mod/hack. There simply was no way to add in content without the developers adding it in up until the sound mod/hack that came out after 1946. When that came out, that's when individuals could freely mod. It was not the developers that released this, it was not supported by the developers, it was a hack.

 

The dynamic campaign was developed by Starshoy as a plugin using hooks. There was no developer intervention to create the dynamic campaign, they only added it into the game after Il-2:Forgotten Battles but Starshoy did all of the work and he was not part of the developer team. That is fully capable here if someone were to build it, but no one has.

 

Okay I see. I did not start with the first release of IL2, that is probably why I thought it was a little bit different. But still it was a foundation which has been built up.

 

And the mod support is still not given. I can understand that the company is probably fearing that people would just take the addons/mods instead of buying DLCs but I don't think that a flight simulator community would be so stupid to not support their game (company). Also, maybe it will catch other people to buy the IL2 BOS?

 

 

 

PS: Regards to the "hacks"...

It is  redicules to call it hacks because community guys made their [Edited] work without asking for money and still, without that "hacks" IL2 would never have reached that success and maybe IL2 BOS would never be where it is without that guys. Without their old community.

 

I know why you call it hacks. I get that point that it was never official but wow, you cannot remove that guys out of the history of IL2.

 

I cannot even understand why people are against mod support.

 

You can download a lot of effect mods which gives you the choice between the old effects or the new created smoke effects which looks by far better. Same goes for tracers, new planes (regarding to content) and maps + campaigns.

 

PSS: And of course, I am not speaking of 5 people on server have vanilla + 5 more have mods. That is of course a no-go. I am referring to a solution like 1000 other games did it.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bearcat
Language

[6./ZG26_Emil]

IL2 was actually hacked so it's not rediculous do some research

[FuriousMeow]

It is a hack and was a hack. It modified the game structure and core without access to the source code. That is hacking by the very definition. It didn't give me anything, it gave me a game I could no longer play online because it was never certain what you were up against. That 109 could have the speed of a jet and the hitting power of two 88mm cannons. That P47 could roll like a 190, turn like a Zero and take infinite damage. The sound mod hack ruined the game for me.

 

Again, anytime software is modified or altered without the source code it is hacking.

Edited July 3, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[Scheintot]

It is a hack and was a hack. It modified the game structure and core without access to the source code. That is hacking by the very definition. It didn't give me anything, it gave me a game I could no longer play online because it was never certain what you were up against. That 109 could have the speed of a jet and the hitting power of two 88mm cannons. That P47 could roll like a 190, turn like a Zero and take infinite damage. The sound mod hack ruined the game for me.

 

Again, anytime software is modified or altered without the source code it is hacking.

 

Yes, that is true. I am not against that but I am referring myself to mod support like other games have. Where you can only join on server A when you have the same mods installed or to server B when you have no mods installed/activated.

If I had known IL2 never had mod support I would not have bought that game probably.

The range of different planes and content made it interesting.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Scheintot

[SharpeXB]

A lot of people would probably give us a lot of different variations of planes.

It's highly unlikely you will ever see modders creating aircraft for flight sims again.

First of all because every flight sim developer today structures their business model around selling the aircraft themselves.

Second because the quality level of the planes today is probably unachievable by volunteer modders. The cost and time involved is too extreme.

Welcome to the current era of simming. I think if you try BOS there is a lot about it you will like but you need to adjust your viewpoint towards how these games are packaged today. The current crop of air combat sims, Rise of Flight, DCS etc are all structured this way. BoS is not unusual in this regard.

[SharpeXB]

The price of the premium planes are at 17€ for one plane. So it is impossible that one plane in BOS costs 9$.

 

Actually the Premium Edition sells for $80 US so that's $8 for each of the 10 planes. If you are looking for a bargain get that on sale.

[Bearcat]

IL2 1946 has two addons which are build on the foundation. Also we have had mod support and dynamic campaigns which have changed the game over time by far.

Without mod support IL2 1946 would not have the given success.

Why mod support is not given to the community? A lot of people would probably give us a lot of different variations of planes. It was never to complicated for a community to create modifications/addons and there always were people who did it. Compared to a community like Arma. I have my criticise there too but that's a different thing.

 

Yes the map is probably big and detailed too, but the maps of IL2 1946 were not THAT bad. There were fine for the purpose, they were and they still are. Also who needs a detailed compound on the ground with chairs and detailed stuff when you're fighting five KMs above? Haven't people mentioned that they are totaly against controllable tanks? Then why a compound needs to be detailed? THAT detailed?

A detailed map is always nice to see don't get me wrong but in a flight simulator that should not be the focus. Content regarding to planes and theatres should. And that is the only thing what has changed so far.

 

The price of the premium planes are at 17€ for one plane. So it is impossible that one plane in BOS costs 9$. I've already mentioned that the maingame is not to much. The premium planes are my problem. One plane for a high price, I can just repeat myself and point my finger to the first post. More content for that price would be absolutly okay.

 

With the new map free of charge you are speaking of BoM, right?

If yes, that is good news but whats about all the new planes?

 

 

Also a lot of people here probably have not understood my point. It is not just about the price, it is more the content for that price. Which does not mean that the content which is given is bad. It is just not that much. Also the question is about the future of IL2.

 

The situation would be better with mod support in my opinion. First of all the developers could see what people like or want and the game/ foundation which has created can grow by the community and the developers. Something like this is probably not happening.

 

The premium planes in this sim are $20.. If you catch a sale they are $10.. At full price for BoS $80 will get you 10 planes including the premium planes and 4 maps $50 will get you 8 planes and 4 maps..

 

IL2 took 5 years to get from IL2 to IL2 1946.. as has been stated the hacking of the sim was not with developer approval.. and believe me.. 8 years ago the relatively simple modding procedure that you see now was not as simple.. Nor was the quality or the compatibility of all the mods as fluid as it is now. BoS should not be compared to IL2 though.. except in terms of what a WWII sim does or can do...  The only other sims that BoS should be compared to as far as cost and what you get for your money are RoF and DCS because they are the only other sims that are still developer supported that are on the market.. and if you want to you can toss in WT. For the sake of this discussion I will not speak on WT because I do not fly it at all and haven't since it was in early beta.... RoF is a different theater that is not as appealing to many as WWII is... so that leaves DCS.  Looking at DCS' WWII content.. because no matter what is on the horizon at this point DCS is still not a WWII sim yet.. it is still a modern era sim with WWII content.. and while the one map in DCS is free.. it is still just one map.. At full price in DCS for $80-$100 depending on your choices you will get two WWII aircraft and one map.

 

$80..... two aircraft .. one map .... $80 .... 10 aircraft .. 4 maps... and while the aircraft in BoS are not modeled to the same high level of functionality as they are in DCS ... they are modeled quite well if I must say so myself.. so I fail to see what the issue is.. catch BoS on a sale and it is a no brainer...

[ShamrockOneFive]

I totally understand the OP's feelings on this because early on I was feeling it too. It's a lot of money and if you look at it on the surface its not nearly as much content as what IL-2 Forgotten Battles released with (That's where I started with the IL-2 series).

 

But then I realized that compared to what IL-2 the original released with its actually fairly similar and by the time BoM releases we'll be in a fairly similar ballpark in terms of content that we really care about at the core - maps and planes. Thing is that this is more complex and requires more artist and programmer time to get working than the previous generation... that's the price of upping the complexity and detail levels to what we get now. So we may only have the one Yak-1 model for example but its very detailed inside and out.

 

I have to hand it to the developers at 1CGS. They may have only been able to give us 8-10 planes but they chose their types wisely. The Normal edition gives you everything you need including top flight fighters as well as attack aircraft and bombers. The FW190 and the La-5 are nice to have but you don't need them to be competitive online.

 

To the OP... others have said it but I highly recommend going this way. Buy the basic package either at full price or at sale price and then wait for the other two planes to go on sale. They do half price sales on planes and its how I ended up buying the FW190 and then the La-5 later. It's been worth the money. It is pushing things a bit but its pretty decent.

 

With new seasonal maps and the free additions of Murmansk and Velikie Luki I think we're doing pretty decently on the content front.

[Y-29.Silky]

In my initial post, I was going to tell people to prepare for the upcoming flame war, but I left it out.

[SR-F_Winger]

Buy the basic version and wait some sales - in the last the 'PREMIUM" planes was sold be 10$.

 

The FW 190 is fiction over Stalingrad and the LaGG dont make difference. You can have fun without then.

 

But if you want "OP" planes, is like WT, pay for then. 

Sokol. I would have expected such a comment from everyone, but not you:)

As if either the FW 190 or the LAGG were in any way - "OP":P

Edited July 4, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[J2_Trupobaw]

Welcome aboard, Scheintot!

 

Like mentioned above, the premium planes are addition for connoisseurs - they were not present over the Stalingrad historically, they are early prototype versions of later, more powerful and famous variants, they are not game-winners. They were included as extras because people wanted them, and were willing to pay extra for them.  

Same applies to BoM premium planes - Lend-lease P-40 and Italian Macchi. They might or might not be present during battle for Moscow, and were far from most numerous and influential planes there, but they were interesting planes which, like you said, no one in love with WW2 simulators will skip. More causal gamers will skip them, and won't miss them.
 

[LukeFF]

Like mentioned above, the premium planes are addition for connoisseurs - they were not present over the Stalingrad historically, they are early prototype versions of later, more powerful and famous variants, they are not game-winners.

 

The La-5 was very much present over Stalingrad, and well before the game's current time frame (September 1942).

 

That, and neither of the premium planes are even close to what is a prototype. They were both fielded in strength by operational units at the front.

Edited July 4, 2015 by LukeFF