Curious ... Stalingrad "late"

[csThor]

4) Where exactly will be your campaign, what their timing and other details of historical interest?

 

 

 

We'll start with "Operation Uranus" - Soviet counterattack and finish with liberation of Stalingrad. Between these events you will see the surroundings of the 6th Army and the attempt of its unblocking ???

Edited December 14, 2012 by csThor

[=IRFC=Huetz]

I think it's the usual path 777 (or neoQB back then) takes: starting with the point in time that may have planes in it that a lot of people are interested in rather than a lot of the more obscure stuff.

 

Afaik none of the involved parties was really able to achieve total dominance in the air over the other at the choosen point, so we may get something really interesting out of this.

[AdlerAngriff]

I think it's a strategy of starting small but making it perfect. Because if you have a smaller core it's easier to pick out teh bugs and make it perfect. After this microcosmos or core is "perfect" it's easy to add content to a stable engine.

 

That's just my theory although i am also pondering why Stalingrad and why the late operations.

[Freycinet]

Well, RoF also went backward in time, with the planes they made, so it could happen again. I also think it is a bit weird to start with Operation Uranus.

[FlatSpinMan]

This is a weird decision. The battle started in September with the German push, so why wait until November ad the Soviet counterattack? Wouldn't it be more interesting to start with a drive on an untouched city and then undergo the reversals that the Germans did? Okay, in terms of planeset it's not such a big deal, but as a decision to make WW2 playing a default horse (no idea what I typed there, none!).

Edited December 15, 2012 by FlatSpinMan

[Rama]

This is a weird decision. The battle started in September with the German push, so why wait until November ad the Soviet counterattack? Wouldn't it be more interesting to start with a drive on an untouched city and then undergo the reversals that the Germans did? Okay, in terms of planeset it's not such a big deal, but as a decision to make WW2 playing a default horse.

That would mean 2 maps (minimum). One with Stalingrad undestroyed and no snow, one with Stalingrad destroyed and snow....

Taking the later period allows a campaign with a clear end.

 

I suppose that later it can be completed with new map (for the early period), new planes (to complete the set) and new player campaign.

[Jaws2002]

Probabily 1c decision. The mighty red army always victorious.

[AndyJWest]

Probabily 1c decision. The mighty red army always victorious.

 

Er, they were, weren't they? 

[Juri_JS]

As I already wrote in another thread, I find the desicision strange too.  A start of BoS in the summer of 1942, when the Luftwaffe still had the upper hand, would allow a larger variety of possible mission scenarios, for example ground support during the German advance on Stalingrad, or the massive attacks by Luftwaffe bombers on the city in late August and the desperate defense by the VVS. We have three different seasonal versions of the ROF map, so I guess doing different versions of the Stalingrad map shouldn't be too complicated.

[SlipBall]

Most likely in my thinking is to have the snowy map

[LG1.Farber]

WIth regards to the maps, I wonder if they will have one with snow and one without and a destruction brush like IL2 1946?

[Rama]

No destruction brush

But the map with snow will probably have Stalingrad with destroyed buildings.

 

And, for Juri, making different version of the map IS complicated. Even a set of texture is a lot of work.

[Juri_JS]

And, for Juri, making different version of the map IS complicated....

Yes, but not impossible.  

 

My hope is, that Loft was only talking about the release version of BoS and we might see an expansion of the time frame in the future.

[AndyJWest]

My hope is, that Loft was only talking about the release version of BoS and we might see an expansion of the time frame in the future.

 

I think that Loft, Jason and the rest of the team have the same hope. 

 

I suspect that the time period  chosen may be to make for some semblance of balance, without sacrificing too much in the way of historical accuracy. I don't think for example that a multiplayer server which enacted the early period of the air battle would appeal much to VVS fliers. It also leaves the options open for expanding historically in both directions, without having to think about a whole new plane set. 

 

Anyway, it works for me. See you over Stalingrad. I'll be the one in the LaGG, missing an aileron, trailing smoke, and cursing my poor SA once again...

[VO101Tom]

Well, RoF also went backward in time, with the planes they made, so it could happen again. I also think it is a bit weird to start with Operation Uranus.

Before Stalingrad (late '42) there is no La-5 or Yak-9, after Stalingrad the Fw 190 unavoidable... The air forces balance was the closest in the battle of Stalingrad. 

Edited December 14, 2012 by VO101_Tom

[No105_Swoose]

It will be interesting to see how the developers model Luftwaffe attempts to resupply Wehrmacht and other Axis forces in "Der Kessel" with flights into Pitomnik and other airfields.  For example, will they model Soviet flak belts and flak ambush sites established to interdict flights by Ju-52s, He-111s, and other aircraft?  Will the map be large enough to show the Luftwaffe resupply staging airfields as they were pushed westward by the Red Army after Operation Uranus? 

[Blitzen]

Most likely in my thinking is to have the snowy map

Yes I was thinking along the same lines- the first map will be of a snowy landscape,if all goes well 777 will add other free maps or at a low cost as they have done with Rise of flight.Those of us who have a foot in RoF are anxiously waiting the 'pay-for"Channel Map ( & the Felixstowe Flying Boat that goes with it,) due out soon.It may give us a neat comparison to the beautiful channel Map in CloD?!

[Ploughman]

1C777 have made it clear that the imperative of their Stalingrad sim is that it works out of the box and that it makes money.  That's it boys.  It won't have bells and whistles, it'll look less good than CloD and won't have the ambition of CloD because, in the final analysis, the ambition of CloD is what made it fail both technically and commercially.  But this is just the first project and if it fails it's over.  If it succeeds as, a functional, acceptable, combat flight sim what happens after that is up to us creating demand for 1C777 to respond to.  The sky is the limit, just not yet.  CloD tried too much too soon and failed and we all lament that.  This is going to be a more cautious approach, little steps to victory, but ultimately with the same aspirations and potential as CloD.  

[Feathered_IV]

Well said Mr P.

[bzc3lk]

1C777 have made it clear that the imperative of their Stalingrad sim is that it works out of the box and that it makes money.  That's it boys.  It won't have bells and whistles, it'll look less good than CloD and won't have the ambition of CloD because, in the final analysis, the ambition of CloD is what made it fail both technically and commercially.  But this is just the first project and if it fails it's over.  If it succeeds as, a functional, acceptable, combat flight sim what happens after that is up to us creating demand for 1C777 to respond to.  The sky is the limit, just not yet.  CloD tried too much too soon and failed and we all lament that.  This is going to be a more cautious approach, little steps to victory, but ultimately with the same aspirations and potential as CloD.  

 

  Very true words Mr P.

[Freycinet]

Well said indeed by Ploughman. That was reality, as it turned out. I would have liked to live in a world where a glorious attempt like CoD could be viable commercially, but I guess in this day and age that's a pipe dream. In the late seventies dreamers could accept products like the first home computers that basically did zilch but pointed to a bright future. Now-a-days there is no room for anything like that, with a hypercritical crowd of people hiding behind internet anonymity...

Re: the maps, remember that the RoF autumn and winter maps only came with later iterations of the sim. If you have only one map from the get go, it certainly makes perfect sense to start with the winter/destroyed city map, so the d???

Edited December 15, 2012 by Freycinet

[Feathered_IV]

Now that I think about it, Stalingrad was a pretty densely built up area stretching about thirty kilometres down the Volga. Even the original Il-2 series can still struggle a bit to show it at acceptable frame rates. Imagine the backlash if BoS is released and only 15% of players can fly over the city.

 

The face of Stalingrad during the Uranus phase would be less system heavy, what with most of the buildings levelled and much of that lying under snow. Like everyone else, I'd like to see the summer version too. Now that I think about it though, I can see the sense in them kicking off with the big push.

 

[Mac_Messer]

It will be interesting to see how the developers model Luftwaffe attempts to resupply Wehrmacht and other Axis forces in "Der Kessel" with flights into Pitomnik and other airfields.  For example, will they model Soviet flak belts and flak ambush sites established to interdict flights by Ju-52s, He-111s, and other aircraft?  Will the map be large enough to show the Luftwaffe resupply staging airfields as they were pushed westward by the Red Army after Operation Uranus? 

By watching IL2 online play you could see that this aspect was one of the highlights of the campaign. There was some serious heroic virtual pilot stuff back there. For that reason I`d really like to have a bigger map with all of those AFs, even if it has to be done at a price of Stalingrad city modelling.

[Dutch]

Perhaps it's simply because most of the buildings in the battle area will already be destroyed, and the game won't have to cope with destroying them, thus leaving resources to do do other things.

 

Not that I know diddly squat about that kind of thing.

[Black-Hussar]

I never understood why there was no BoB scenario, campaign or even map in the origianl IL2 series. One, if not the most important aerial (!) combat in WWII seemed to be immaterial. On the one the hand I was glad to hear that the "new" series would start with this scenario, but on the other hand I couldn't believe that a new WWII aerial combat series would start in 1940.

 

But this was not the only thing I couldn't believe when I started IL2 Cliffs of Dover for the first time...... 

The more I was surprised to hear that the "sequel" will be the Battle of Stalingrad. Again an inexplicable time shift for me. And now we are in November 1942 when Russia launched the glory "Operation Uranus". Well, there was something before and in between, but I'm sure that there are good reason to make a new start in November 1942.

 

Fully agree with csThor and hope that "things" will be added later. 

[Skoshi_Tiger]

 

I never understood why there was no BoB scenario, campaign or even map in the origianl IL2 series. One, if not the most important aerial (!) combat in WWII seemed to be immaterial.

I think you'll find Oleg wanted to do things that were imposible with the original IL2 engine, such as have cliffs right up to the waters edge, and add a new layer of realism to the sim. He was saving the Battle Of Britain for his new game engine. Pitty it didn't work out as hope.

 

[Black-Hussar]

Impossible? Sure, there are some "challenging Cliffs" over there, but the rest of that lovely island is fairly common european landscape. Nothing impossible, especially as nobody wanted Oleg to add a new layer of realism in the original IL2 series just for a BoB scenario or map. 

 

These were the plans for Cliffs of Dover, but that's another story.

[[LAS]URURolf]

Impossible? Sure, there are some "challenging Cliffs" over there, but the rest of that lovely island is fairly common european landscape. Nothing impossible, especially as nobody wanted Oleg to add a new layer of realism in the original IL2 series just for a BoB scenario or map. 

 

These were the plans for Cliffs of Dover, but that's another story.

 

Sorry, but you are getting some points way out wrong.

 

IL2 was made by russians, and first of all intendend as a product for russians.

 

On the long run, it developed as enormously popular, and more developement followed, on the basis of what was allready developed.

 

The second edition, FB, was an extension of scenerys never before depicted on simulated airwarfare.

 

The pacific, was allready over ambitious, and lacking. 1946, was accepted because it included a lot of western aircraft.

 

Then a poll was made, to know wich scenario was in need of attention, to be the first of the new il2. BoB won, and this was a great mistake to my taste, since it almost allowed no more than dogfihts and level bombing. 

 

It was better to develope, but pittiful to allow close support aircraft activity. So you have Stukas, but no tanks, or enemy columns to hit. Also ships changed paths to avoid being attacked. So in the long run, close support is useless. 

 

The bigger numbers of mission creators, love to move the mud. So... you have a lot to loose on those scenerys. BoB was never a good choice as a follow up of the title. It is nice as a secondary scenario, but never as the only one in a product so rich with possibilities.

 

The channels 44 scenario was far more accepted, and London was really needed there, but BoB... for anyone that played all aspects of il2, is a second rate scenario. For exclusive dogfighters, it is heaven, for everyone else, it is just boring.