Editor in IL-2 BoS for users?

[Dakpilot]

An example of WYS/WYG editor in Car Racing sim soon to be released Assetto Corsa not for missions but just an example of  WYSIWYG bypassing the need for user coding.

 

 

"Modding[edit]

The game is designed to support extensive modification and creation of additional cars and tracks by users themselves. A special WYSIWYG editor, bundled with the game, will enable importing of 3d models (in .fbx file format) and allow artists to assign properties and material shaders to objects, with an emphasis on ease of use. The editor exports a single game model file and does not allow opening of, or addition of objects, to an already exported file.

The game also supports addition of third party widgets and plugins written in Python, C++ and C#, for uses such as telemetry or interface enchantments."

 

 

 

 This type of editor (a simple one ) is essential for the future of mission building to be accessible to the casual user, and thus ensuring success, in the way of user made content that was/is available for original IL-2.

 

It has been said there is no time/resources for this to be made available at launch, so there is no point complaining about it, but the need for it to be high on the list of planned updates should be considered

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

Edited October 24, 2013 by Dakpilot

[Sim]

But isn't the RoF editor WYSIWYG already? e.g. there is no way to script and write code for missions. Last time I tried it - you would place units and use visual object/logic links to "program" the logic.

 

The main issue with RoF editor is and will be the fact it's a standalone thingy and is not integrated within the game. Testing your missions is just a pain in the a**.

[YoYo]

But isn't the RoF editor WYSIWYG already? e.g. there is no way to script and write code for missions. Last time I tried it - you would place units and use visual object/logic links to "program" the logic.

 

The main issue with RoF editor is and will be the fact it's a standalone thingy and is not integrated within the game. Testing your missions is just a pain in the a**.

 

It Is, but trust me - ok powerful tool but not easy to use it for medium user.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I wonder if potential mission creators would pay extra for a user-friendly editor.

 

I would.

[DD_fruitbat]

I would like to be able to launch a mission from within the editor like in old il2, rather than save it, close down the RoF editor, fire up the game, load the mission, just to check simple changes to the mission i'm working on.

 

I hope they at least incorporate the editor into BoS itself instead of a separate piece of software.

[SeaW0lf]

Being positive, they would never make the same mistake they did with ROF and create a mission builder for PhDs in rocket science.

[Matt]

They will use the same mission editor. It has been stated multiple times. Being positive won't help.

 

Not that i have a problem with that (even though i don't have a PhD in anything, i can work with the mission editor just fine), except for the cumbersome stuff fruitbat mentions (not being able to quickly check simple changes in missions).

[SeaW0lf]

Maybe you don't have a PhD, but you have time, because this has being discussed at ROF and it is general consensus that it is one of the reasons the game never actually "rose".

 

It is bad news indeed. Looks like people didn't do their home work. Perhaps the simmer community outside ROF don't know the trouble they are getting into.

[Matt]

Maybe you don't have a PhD, but you have time, because this has being discussed at ROF and it is general consensus that it is one of the reasons the game never actually "rose".

I'm surprised that you know how much time i have avaliable (but i don't want to make this personal) and also how that has any influence on what has been discussed in the RoF is a mystery to me.

 

The devs have stated that they will use mainly the same editor in BoS. There are many reasons used by people as the definite fact for RoF not becoming as popular as '46 for instance (even though no other contemporary flightsim has managed that and i don't see any flightsim in developement right now changing that anyway).

 

Yes the editor is very complicated, that has never been doubted by anyone (i've been very critical about the editor myself, both on the RoF and these forums), but this talk is getting very old. If you need help using the editor, feel free to ask. I'm willing to help everyone who is having problems with the RoF editor and will most likely do that for BoS aswell (if my rare free time allows it).

[=IRFC=SmokinHole]

The RoF Editor has a big learning curve.  But it is extremely powerful and pretty intuitive once the underlying logic is understood.  I definately prefer it to IL2 but I think I like the ED/DCS editor better only because it is a little easier to keep track of your own logic as the mission gets more complex.  In the RoF editor I struggled to keep track of my intentions, making the mission difficult to come back to months later.  But here is where it shows it's power with a more organized designer:  commands are linked and the colors of the links have meaning.  By organizing your logic into groups on the Editor map you have the ability to layer missions in very effective ways.  A super-user like Vanderstock will make missions that another experienced user can understand with some effort just by tracing his groups.  It really requires good organizational skills to do properly.  What I would really like to see is something akin to visual REM statments that can be seen without right-clicking the command or trigger.

Oh, and the comment(s) above about mission testing is dead on.  Testing missions is a horror in RoF.  But alas we can't have everything.

[SeaW0lf]

I'm surprised that you know how much time i have avaliable (but i don't want to make this personal) and also how that has any influence on what has been discussed in the RoF is a mystery to me.

 

The devs have stated that they will use mainly the same editor in BoS. There are many reasons used by people as the definite fact for RoF not becoming as popular as '46 for instance (even though no other contemporary flightsim has managed that and i don't see any flightsim in developement right now changing that anyway).

 

Yes the editor is very complicated, that has never been doubted by anyone (i've been very critical about the editor myself, both on the RoF and these forums), but this talk is getting very old. If you need help using the editor, feel free to ask. I'm willing to help everyone who is having problems with the RoF editor and will most likely do that for BoS aswell (if my rare free time allows it).

 

You might reread your comment, because you were personal. I just responded in kind. But it does not bother me either. I am just commenting here because I wish that BoS trails a different path that ROF trailed in many things. That's all. We learn with our mistakes, and these things seem to have been extensively discussed at ROF. I just expect that they improve the interface immensely.

 

I tried the ROF mission editor a few times and you can't help to notice that many procedures can be simplified to a point when it does not become a maze. I just gave up because I just don't have time to study it to the point of knowing what to do. Developers have this notion that everyone understands exactly what they are doing or the line of thinking they have. This is the biggest gap in between a product and its users, and every successful interface and endeavor took this seriously into consideration.

 

If they want to go this way, fine. I just have no time to adapt to it. At ROF we have people who mastered it, but they are considered people who know how to lit fire in the Stone Age. It is not the best scenario to have the mission building left for a few brave simmers that have time and endurance to master the interface.

[BMA_West]

I would like to be able to launch a mission from within the editor like in old il2, rather than save it, close down the RoF editor, fire up the game, load the mission, just to check simple changes to the mission i'm working on.

 

I hope they at least incorporate the editor into BoS itself instead of a separate piece of software.

If you activate the game first, you are able to start the editor and run both simultaneously for creating or making changes to a mission, saving it, switching to the game and testing it. Probably not on the fly but after restarting the newly saved mission.

Don't bother the window showing up when activating the editor telling you have already running the game or the editor.

However if you try to activate the game while running the editor the game or rather the settings.exe wont activate ...

[BMA_West]

Just checked it out but had to recompress .mission files to .msnbin again first, didn't do that after last update.

So now one can run the Dserver on top of the game and the editor on the same rig the while accessing and playing the mission in MP opened in that Dserver.

I seem to remember I could not do that a while ago?

Just tired & works ok:

-activating game+Dserver+editor;

-opening *.sds file in Dserver relative mission x;

-running mission x from in game MP list;

-returning to game main page;

-editing mission x and saving it through editor;

-reopening/refreshing the *.sds relative to mission x in Dserver;

-accessing/playing that mission from MP server list & checking changes;

the while game+Dserver+editor being active, while of course Dserver uses a different account from the game account.

[BMA_West]

Some pointers to try out the editor in a relaxed way (only way i can do it so in a way an editor approach for dummies  ) .

 

 

Any mission you play single or MP Dogfight/Coop finds itself filed in an appropriate folder within your ROF folder, typically Data/Missions or Multiplayer/Cooperative or Dogfight.

In the mission folder you'll find your single mission e.g. under:

-_gen.Mission = complete mission,

-_gen.msnbin = compressed/encoded mission,

-_gen.eng ect = language files x5 for different translations.

 

For opening in the editor you'll always need the *.mission file non withstanding the editor will open the *.msnbin file if it finds it present under the same name & date as the *.mission files.

Same goes for presenting the missions over the Dserver or over an in game created server - see server list bottom right. 

Given the much smaller format of that compressed file this means much faster access/upload - so always let the editor convert the mission to the compressed/encoded binary files.

 

In MP you'll also find a *.list file, which describes to clients the way to find the mission files on your rig over the master server.

If the *.list file is not generated in the folder presenting the mission on MP none will be able to load your mission.

In need for generating new *.list files (e.g. you saved the misson not in the final folder), be sure to have the mission files in the correct/final folder, just delete the bad *.list files, fire up the editor and go to Tools/Convert missions to binary in folder or Resave all missions in folder and guide it to the folder in question.

 

Those single missions may come from the Quick Mission Generator (Survive/Skirmish/Duel) or Career or a mission generator mod.

Once opened in the editor you may adapt them e.g. to fly with friends in COOP or MP.

 

Important, each game update also updates the editor.

All the missions you have will need to get updated through the renewed editor.

For that you delete all the *.msnbin files,fire up the renewed editor, go to Tools/Convert missions to binary in folder or Resave all missions in folder and guide it to the folder in question.

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2013 by West

[ShamrockOneFive]

Thanks to Matt for posting the list on what you need to do to get a basic multiplayer mission rolling along. That is helpful indeed... my concern is that its unecessarily complex in spaces where the devs could spend some time to have the editor take care of some of these settings in stages that require a few less clicks. I didn't got through the list bit by bit and don't intend to do that (I do enough in my regular day job ) but I think there is a legitimate concern that the mission editor is of sufficient complexity that it makes it difficult to churn out large numbers of quality missions which does impact the entire community.

 

Its not about working hard at it and its not about putting the time in. Those things are both a given. But the barrier to entry should be set so that its as accessible as possible. I'm quite experience with the IL-2 editor and I intend to learn the new editor when it comes out... but it looks like it will be taking me much longer to do the same basic things that I can do on the IL-2 1946 editor. That's a legitimate concern.

[Habu]

Icefire, you wrong, you have to read tutorials 777 made. You can find it there :

http://riseofflight.com/en/community/usefulmaterials

 

You'll see two things :

* RoF mission Editor User Manual which describe many command (not all, beacause some are add with time).

* Mission Editor Lesson which are several basic mission to learn how build one kind of action.

 

So, in a few time you can build several mission. Don't worry, we are several having the same reaction when RoF was released. The first time i ran the ME in RoF, i said i don't understand. Someone mad several tuturial (at that time, links i provide above wasn't availiable), i did them and it took me a few hours to build a mission.

 

Here are the tutorials i used (it's in french) :

http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=400&t=154483

 

Like every mission editor, you have to understand the way it work. With basic things you can make many good mission. And with time you add more and more things.

 

Don't forget that many mission builder from Rof are here, and can provide you help, we don't have at the begining of every game (except for lockon/DCS).

Edited November 3, 2013 by Habu

[dburne]

The main reason the ROF editor is so complex, is it was really not written for public consumption - it was written for the programmers to use, to develop missons/campaign. Programmers understand most of that complexity, the average user finds it very overwhelming.

They decided to release this same program as the Mission Editor, knowing there are some that will get it, and share what they know.

 

Undoubtedly, BOS is going to use this same editor, due to time constraints for the initial release.

Perhaps someday down the road, they will take the time to rewrite it and make it more user friendly.

Heck, I am having a hard time trying to wrap my arms around the ME in Cliffs of Dover, I would not even attempt my low average butt to try and learn the ROF editor. I more rely on others that create great missions and campaigns.

Edited November 3, 2013 by dburnette

[SeaW0lf]

Programmers understand most of that complexity, the average user finds it very overwhelming.

 

 

That's the real issue. The complaints are constant at the ROF forum and they have asked for a better ME for years with no results. I am not that dummie about computers and softwares, and I have being building my rigs for a few years now and I work with different softwares for some 20 years, but I am not a programmer and don't intent to be, so, the ME is ridiculously complex.

 

A simple task to set a recon mission with scouts interception and with all the planes returning to base and landing afterwards gets so complicated at the end that it is not even funny. I tried to understand its philosophy for a week, during my break hours, and I just gave up, because it is too raw. Even if I was to write such a software I would not make it so complicated. And I was just at the beginning! The perspective to tackle more complex stuff was just out of question. Several procedures can be and should be simplified. It is just visible, and the results would be much more satisfactory and less painful.

 

As a side note, the ROF community doesn't take it as lightly as it sounds here. The veterans at the forum point it as one of the big reasons the game failed to be successful. If a few people who work with the ME say it is fine, this is another story, but it doesn't tell the truth about the ROF community.

 

It really surprises me that they didn't work on the mission editor.

[Gitano_Fraile]

para aquellos que venimos del IL2 1946, la diferencia entre el FMB y él ME es grande, no me caben dudas de que así es. Pero también vi cómo fue evolucionando el FMB, y las cosas que se le pedían. Los Mision Makers que van obteniendo experiencia, cada vez más tratan de agregar más variables a las misiones, tratando de lograr así la experiencia más real posible.

el ME trae todo eso (ojo, si es complicado aprenderlo a usar, pero nada que un buen manual o un buen foro con ayuda de los dev, no se pueda solucionar), y me parece que la imaginación y voluntad para tratar de entenderlo esta en uno, o radica más en darle esa oportunidad.

en lo personal, como ya se habrán dado cuenta, el lenguaje para mí es un factor determinante, mi falta de otro idioma, no me limita, pero se me complica el aprendizaje, pero de lo que si estoy seguro es que cuando lo aprenda a usar, quiero hacer todo aquello, o lo más cercano, a lo que me imagino, para no solo disfrutarlo yo sino con quien lo vuele.

Una oportunidad es lo que se necesita para saber si algo es bueno o malo

 

----Traducido con google----------------------

 

 

 

for those who come from IL2 1946 , the difference between MBP and ME it is great , I do not doubt that it is. But I also saw how evolved the FMB , and the things that are asked. The Mission Makers ranging experience getting increasingly try to add more variables to the missions, trying to make up the experience as real as possible .
the ME brings all of that (hey, if it is complicated to learn to use, but nothing that a good book or a good forum to support the dev, can not be fixed ) , and I think that imagination and willingness to try to understand this in one, or lies more in giving you that opportunity .
personally , as you may have noticed , the language for me is a factor, my lack of another language , not limited , but I learning complicated , but what I am sure of is that when you learn to use , I do all that, or the closest to what I imagine , for not only me but who enjoy the fly .
An opportunity is what you need to know if something is good or bad


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