throttle quadrants

[goodpoints]

Hello all,

 

I'm a fairly new simmer, since about a year ago I've been playing Rise of Flight, DCS, IL-2:46, and Wings of Prey, and just recently picked up BoS during the Steam sale. I'm now getting to the point where I'm really starting to feel held back by my current Logitech 3D pro + keyboard/mouse + Wii Balance Board (as pedals) setup and am looking at upgrading my setup, gradually though as I am on a pretty tight budget and would like to not spend more than $150 on most components. 

 

I find much greater enjoyment out of flying with manual engine management (exceptions for planes that have real auto systems like the 109), but this can be rather difficult in combat situations with my current setup. I would prefer to always fly HUD-off and gauge throttle, radiator, etc. settings by the virtual levers rather than the HUD percentile indicators but even with a TrackIR setup I can't imagine the lack of peripheral vision would make glancing at components typically below the instrument panel while tracking bandits any less difficult. So with that said, a lever-style throttle quadrant is currently at the top of my wishlist. I think I'd be ok with continuing to use a mouse for looking (and clickpits in DCS) if I had a set of levers in front of my left/mouse hand that I could easily shift my hand over to. I'm primarily interested in flying prop planes so ideally I'd like something with more of WWI-WWII look/function, unfortunately it seems most of the stuff out there is designed with jets in mind. 

 

It seems there's all that much out there for consumer-grade throttle quadrants, all I've found for lever quadrants (rather than Cesna-style push-pull) for less than 300 USD are the 3 lever Saitek PZ45 (linked to amazon) and 6 lever CH Products 300-133 . Of the two, I'd lean towards the Saitek as the CH levers looks much smaller and toy-like than the Saitek which looks more historically appropriate and has percentile markings that I'm thinking could be configured to correspond with the ranges for combat modes in planes that have them. (and I could add markings for the F-4's emergency mode) If I were feeling especially industrious I'm thinking I could also add some wood or metal knobs/handles to lengthen the levers and give a more historical feel. I'd like to get 2 sets of the Saiteks as that would be around the same price as the CH set and would cover the major engine controls in all the single-engine planes. (throttle, prop pitch/RPM, mixture, oil rad, water rad/cowls, and some trim/stabilizer control) Does anyone have a pair of these? I'd love to hear your opinion. I'd also like to know  more about what Saitek describes as the 3 "two-way rocker switches" below each lever: the switches appear to have 3 positions (up, center/off, and down), anyone know if this allows 3 modes where I would be able to use one switch to toggle a level between controlling first, second, and both engines in twin engine planes?

 

Is there anything else out there that might better suit my function and price considerations? Since the commercial options out seem quite pricey given the relative simplicity of a lever and their generally diminutive size, I'd also be interested in DIY solutions that are fairly simple or use repurposed equipment. 

 

Thanks. 

[JG5_Schuck]

Hey goodpoints.

Nice to see a fellow simmers who flys without the gimmicky TECHhints/HUD turned on.

I use the CH throttle quadrant, Ive found it very good for the price, the levers were abit lose when I brought it (second hand, but cheap) but easily remedied.

As you say I have the inner 3 levers for Prop, Mixture, and Throttle. The outer 3 for Water, Oil, and cowling. Works a treat. It also has 6 of the 2 way rocker switches. its well built, and fixes securely

I use a Sidewinder2, for the ForceFeed Back (in fact I have 2, one for a spare) I brought it with CFS3 back in 2002, still going strong! Couldn't fly without one now.

A pair of Simped F16's, and a Cessna trim wheel (invaluable for the 109 trim!) 

 

But over all of these, I would say my best single buy was TiR5, just transforms the game. 

 

You should be able to pick most of this stuff second hand (as I did) to keep the cost down.

 

Happy flying.

[feuervogel]

Hello goodpoints and welcome to the forums,

 

I am using the Saitek quadrants for a long time and I am satisfied overall, after using one for years I bought a second one to control multi engine planes. But I have to mention that 2 of the axis started spiking after few months of using, nothing dramatically but little bit annoying, tried to cure with dust remover/contact spray so far (I think there is more dust in my room than in any other ...).

I have to say that I am using for throttle my HOTAS Warthog, the Saiteks control prop pitch, mixture and radiator only (twin engine set). Here's a pic of my setup http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2042-selling-thrustmaster-warthog-extensions/?p=150997 (The Cessna trim wheel is excellent for trimming the Bf109.)

 

Sorry, I don't have any experience with the CH Products quadrants, but I am hearing mostly good reviews.

 

On the Saitek quad you have 3 levers, when pulled all way down you have an (haptic) additional "trigger", maybe for idling (?), I don't use that. The 3 switches are not really rocker switches, you just have to buttons in one. The switches feel a bit loose but when pushed you feel a "click". It is a bit tricky sometimes in a dark room to find those black on black buttons quickly. There is a SST Software which I never tried out, I think it is just for generating profiles. I have a screenshot to show you the functions in the control panel window:

 

The quadrant itself and the clamping jaws are to parts you can fit them together in different positions, the coloured knobs are changeable.

 

All in all the quadrant is very solid made, ok, it is all plastic but stays in place (mounted on the table) and does its job. I can recommend it.

 

I hope that helps you finding a decision, if you have any further questions let me know.

 

Horrido! fv

Edited June 25, 2015 by feuervogel

[Sokol1]

Quality/durability (plastic/potentiometer/switchs) of CH is "far" better than Saitek - this use low cost pot's. Google for 'Saitek quadrant potentiometer spikes"

[goodpoints]

Hello goodpoints and welcome to the forums,

 

I am using the Saitek quadrants for a long time and I am satisfied overall, after using one for years I bought a second one to control multi engine planes. But I have to mention that 2 of the axis started spiking after few months of using, nothing dramatically but little bit annoying, tried to cure with dust remover/contact spray so far (I think there is more dust in my room than in any other ...).

I have to say that I am using for throttle my HOTAS Warthog, the Saiteks control prop pitch, mixture and radiator only (twin engine set). Here's a pic of my setup http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2042-selling-thrustmaster-warthog-extensions/?p=150997 (The Cessna trim wheel is excellent for trimming the Bf109.)

 

Sorry, I don't have any experience with the CH Products quadrants, but I am hearing mostly good reviews.

 

On the Saitek quad you have 3 levers, when pulled all way down you have an (haptic) additional "trigger", maybe for idling (?), I don't use that. The 3 switches are not really rocker switches, you just have to buttons in one. The switches feel a bit loose but when pushed you feel a "click". It is a bit tricky sometimes in a dark room to find those black on black buttons quickly. There is a SST Software which I never tried out, I think it is just for generating profiles. I have a screenshot to show you the functions in the control panel window: Saitek_quad_funct.jpg

 

The quadrant itself and the clamping jaws are to parts you can fit them together in different positions, the coloured knobs are changeable.

 

All in all the quadrant is very solid made, ok, it is all plastic but stays in place (mounted on the table) and does its job. I can recommend it.

 

I hope that helps you finding a decision, if you have any further questions let me know.

 

Horrido! fv

 

 Thanks a lot for the info. I'm thinking the downward trigger could be intended for reverse thrust on jets though it might work well for something like parking brake. 

 

Regarding the switches, I'm not sure if we understand each other exactly,  do the switches stay depressed in position when flipped? From images it seems that by default neither button is toggled. If so what I would try to do is map, for example, the Pe-2's engine 1 mixture to 'Switch Position 1 + Axis 7' (going by your screenshot), the engine 2 mixture to 'SwitchPos 2 + Axis 7', and make both engine mixture just 'Axis 7'. Or is it really just a 2 way switch where either Pos 1 or Pos 2 are always active? If the latter, I suppose I could always eventually buy a third set to have ALL the Pe-2's levers if I ever get decent at actually bombing anything. 

 

Hey goodpoints.

Nice to see a fellow simmers who flys without the gimmicky TECHhints/HUD turned on.

I use the CH throttle quadrant, Ive found it very good for the price, the levers were abit lose when I brought it (second hand, but cheap) but easily remedied.

As you say I have the inner 3 levers for Prop, Mixture, and Throttle. The outer 3 for Water, Oil, and cowling. Works a treat. It also has 6 of the 2 way rocker switches. its well built, and fixes securely

I use a Sidewinder2, for the ForceFeed Back (in fact I have 2, one for a spare) I brought it with CFS3 back in 2002, still going strong! Couldn't fly without one now.

A pair of Simped F16's, and a Cessna trim wheel (invaluable for the 109 trim!) 

 

But over all of these, I would say my best single buy was TiR5, just transforms the game. 

 

You should be able to pick most of this stuff second hand (as I did) to keep the cost down.

 

Happy flying.

 

Indeed, it's such a more immersive experience. I first started turning off the HUD in Rise of Flight and with some adjustments to bandit spawns in PWCG, I started really getting some sense of the anxious monotonous rhythm of patrols that are statistically unlikely to make contact and my kill rate dropped way down making each victory more rewarding. I'm still getting used to navigating in WWII planes though, I'm finding it much more difficult than the "wait is that the right patch of trees" visual references I'm able to use in RoF. A little thing that bugs me in BoS that was changed from RoF is that even with the map icons turned off the map still tracks your position as it always keeps your position in the center of the minimap. I'm just using NobbyNobbs awesome html map utility as I do in RoF, but even if I'm below the clouds the glare from the snow and the fact that everything is covered in it makes visual navigation a bit trickier. 

 

What worries me about the CH is just how little range the levers seem to have, it seems like a radius of a few cm versus the wider Saiteks. Do they have enough resistance and sensitivity where you can make precise adjustments easily?  I also think the more horizontal radius of the Saiteks would feel more natural. 

 

 

Quality/durability (plastic/potentiometer/switchs) of CH is "far" better than Saitek - this use low cost pot's. Google for 'Saitek quadrant potentiometer spikes"

 

 

Hm, good to know. I happened upon more than one post saying that they discovered the pots have a 270° radius that it only uses 90° of. (yeah...that might develop some play) Though it seems some people managed to fix the issue at least temporarily by opening the case and manually rotating the pots the full 270° and/or cleaning the contacts. (link, link) I wonder if it might be possible to restrict the pots' radius to 90° with some glue or solder. If that's all it required that wouldn't really bother me that much. (they have a 2 year warranty as well), Someone in the thread (first link) points out something I hadn't noticed with the CH set: that they don't have any markings or a resting position you can feel, which makes me more concerned that making fine adjustments could be difficult. 

 

Both issues seem pretty ridiculous though considering the prices both companies ask for what are essentially basically glorified Atari sticks without center springs. Aren't there USB enabled crane control panels or something I could adapt? 

Edited June 25, 2015 by goodpoints

[feuervogel]

Hello goodpoints,

 

as for the switches, they are no toggle switches and do not stay in position when depressed and there is no neutral (3rd) Position. (What I was trying to describe is that haptic "knack" feel when you pressing the button). I am using buttons for open/close bomb bay doors for example.

 

I don't think that it is possible to map twin engine mixture to one axis, a 2nd Quadrant would be better of course. But what you can do is to map open/close radiator flap (for example) to one of the switches, By holding the button down you open or close a flap or something else. Ok, not so realistic as moving a lever, but maybe a solution.

 

Greetings ...

Edited June 26, 2015 by feuervogel

[LukeFF]

Quality/durability (plastic/potentiometer/switchs) of CH is "far" better than Saitek - this use low cost pot's. Google for 'Saitek quadrant potentiometer spikes"

 

CH controllers are not made of plastic.

 

 

What worries me about the CH is just how little range the levers seem to have, it seems like a radius of a few cm versus the wider Saiteks. Do they have enough resistance and sensitivity where you can make precise adjustments easily?

 

The range of motion with the CH Throttle Quad allows very precise movements, yes.  

[J2_Trupobaw]

I am using a pair of Saitek throttles (one as cheap "my first throttle, other as hand-me-down) used ones. I've set them one under another (think levers in LAGG-3 cockpit), using first one for throttle/prop/mixture and second for water/oil/ cowling + Bf-109 stabiliser + reload guns when pushed down. 

They are spiking, all right, I had to use response curves make extreme ends of the range do nothing. They are made of flimsy, soft plastic, too. I can think of two possible advantages of these over CH: they can be put one over another then screwed together to the table or side of sympit, giving you three sets of 3 levers instead of row of 6, faster to work with without looking, and the physical levers in Saitek move from fully vertical to fully horisontal position  -  i think the CH ones move from 45degrees forwards-up to 45 degrees backwards-up.

[Sokol1]

CH controllers are not made of plastic.

 

 

The ones that I have: CH Combatstick, Fighterstick, Flightstick or had: PRO Throttle, PRO Pedal and Pedal are all plastic (PRO Pedals have rollers in steel) - but quality plastic reinforced with Nylon I think, as I use make MOD in then - and so know then inside -  and the plastic is dammed difficult to cut.

 

@ OP,

 

Look at CH potentiometer and compare with these Saitek that you see people trying fix: 

 

http://s291.photobucket.com/user/LE_Hawkeye/media/100_2689_zps6171dd2a.jpg.html

 

These CH products have a antiquated look - designed at end of 90's/2001 - outdated electronics, but last long.

 

I still using a 1998 CH Combatstick (converted for USB).

[Scott_Steiner]

As stated in this thread, you have the 2 side  of the coin:

 

Saitek is cheap, usually functions okay for awhile, programming software is decent and intuitive to use, drivers can be crap.

 

I had an X52 for a number of years that worked great but they messed up the drivers when Mad Catz took over and made the HOTAS unplayble with the generation of motherboard I use, it literally gives my computer BSOD's. The Joystick was okay, the X52 throttle was excellent.

 

I have the Saitek Throttle Quadrant, I have only had it for 6 months, I think it works great but I don't know how it will be holding up in 2 years. It's a pretty basic controller so using programing software should not be a big concern or even use with this product.

 

CH Products, built very well, incredibly overpriced, terribly antiquated design, excellent programming software, "just works"

 

CH hasn't released anything new in years, most of there designs originally had gameport connectors instead of USB because they are going on 20 years old. A lot of CH fans will say this is fine because their controllers are such good units and there is no need for them to redesign their controllers to something more modern because they work so well. While I agree on one hand, I don't think that statement is entirely true. One thing people are mentioning is that their potentiometers are higher quality than most and should last a long time.. Well, I'm sorry but any stick or single controller that is priced closed to $150 should have Hall Sensors and not potentiometers, it really shows how old the design is and how the price of the unit does not correlate to what you spend out of your wallet anymore.

 

I had some CH Pedals that had the potentiometers go bad after 6 years, that's a lot shorter than any of the Saitek stuff I have had.

 

I got a CH Pro Throttle a couple years ago, was a huge disappointment. It's more of a slider than a throttle, it feels like there is no slider mechanism inside (very notch feel, not fluid, very toddler toy like throw to it) and it's hard to be accurate with it because there isn't any resistance. If you tilt the Pro Throttle vertically the throttle lever will slosh around do to the force of gravity, it's basically just sitting in there free of any resistance. Definitely not worth the MSRP of around 100 dollars.

 

In the end, I would say that with something more simple like a throttle quadrant you probably aren't going to run into a lot of problems with the Saitek quadrant as much as a Saitek HOTAS and I am sure the levers will feel better being used in your hand than the CH Unit. The CH quadrant will probably feel more rugged and bulletproof atop your desk but the mechanics of the design may fall short of the Saitek.

 

In the end I recommend a third choice and that is going a route something like this:

 

 http://www.derekspearedesigns.com/2015-flight---flt1.html

[Sokol1]

 

 

Well, I'm sorry but any stick or single controller that is priced closed to $150 should have Hall Sensors and not potentiometers, it really shows how old the design is and how the price of the unit does not correlate to what you spend out of your wallet anymore.

 

And today a HALL sensor cost less than a good potentiometer ...The one used in TM Warthog/T.16000M cost ~3$ in batchs. 

 

But will be difficult any news from CH, is highly improbable that the new owner of the brand will invest in flight games joystick. 

And the old ones continue selling, I read somewhere that due the Star Citizen and similar theme games the Amazon stock of CH stick was sold out. 

[Sokol1]

GVL224 quadrant

 

 

Levers can be added as desired.

 

 

Contact there: http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/3141-prodam-blok-upravleniya-dvigatelem-i-mehanizac/

Edited June 28, 2015 by Sokol1

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Interesting one Sokol, especially because of the customizebility. But for 200 bucks it's aiming more on the high budget, which is unfortunate.

 

Eyerolled with the Saitek quadrant myself but scrapped the idea. I can handle all the functions with my X-52 Pro pretty well and apart from BoS and RoF it would have no use. In this regard it's more a cosmetic than functional gadget.

[Dakpilot]

So far had satisfactory reliable service from Saitek quadrant in a fairly dusty environment, (fingers crossed   ) for the price it is acceptable, like the fact that it comes with plain black control ends to change from the multi coloured 'general aviation' coloured ones

 

CH products are not widely available in my country and very expensive comparatively, even if they are higher quality 

 

Cheers Dakpilot