What is the point?

[Zorin]

Well...

 

After reading all offical statements and Jason's first answers I have no clue who will want to buy BOS.

 

It loses:

 

- most of the techincal FM deatils of CloD, which were the natural evolution of IL-2/46

- the detailed 3D models of CloD, especially cockpits

- does not provide a campaign building feature apart from 3rd party solutions some time down the road

- the number of planes at release, 10, even though of considerably lesser deatil compared to CloD, is laughable, as they MUST include certain types that will likely be AI only (Ju52s, Li2s, gliders)

- 95% of the content IL-2/46 has to offer

 

 

So really, why would anyone want to buy this if he can get unmeasurably more out of the good old Il-2, especially seeing where TD is taking it.

 

 

Please discuss.

[slm]

Have you flown ROF?  Are you saying it's not more advanced than IL2 series in any way?

[J2_Trupobaw]

slm, let's not get into "my game is better", tis is already being discussed to the death around here...

Zorin, this, too, has been discussed in several threads here already . The short answer is, to early to tell. So far we know for sure who is making the game and when they intend to have it done, and the knowledge is not a week old. The complete list of features that will / will not be included is not known yet, the devs are probably still discussing it and are going to revise it as they make it. 

Will it include all features os CloD? Probably not. Will it make a good game in it's all right? I'll tell you when I'll buy it. 

Edited December 14, 2012 by Trupobaw

[W1ndy]

 

 

 

Please discuss.

 

Discuss what ?    I'll buy the sim on release because 777 don't make crap sims.

 

I'm a flight simmer. Why would I not buy it ?

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

slm, let's not get into "my game is better", tis is already being discussed around here...

 

Zorin, this, too, has been discussed in several threads here already . The short answer is, to early to tell. So far we know for sure who is making the game and when they intend to have it done, and the knowledge is not a week old. The complete list of features that will / will not be included is not known yet, the devs are probably still discussing it and are going to revise it as they make it. 

 

Will it include all features os CloD? Probably not. Will it make a good game in it's all right? I'll tell you when I'll buy it. 

pretty darn well written. The only thing we can do now is to keep in touch with the development teaam, take part in the communication, encourage and supoprt as we should do with pretty much all titles that are beeing developed in this small genre. 

No need to play the sceptical violin before we know anything about the project.

[SYN_Haashashin]

I will be buying this as same as I buyed il2/46 and RoF (released with 4 planes I think under Neoqb).

 

I think we dont need this kind of topic, not because its says what it loses, in your opinion, its just because I see it as an attack to dev team (1c Game studios) as you just bring up negatives aspects, again in your honest opinion, but forget to say nothing positive, and if you think it doesnt gain nothing..well I will give you something you gain..a working sim out of the box, and let me tell you, this was not the case when CloD was release and was the main reason for me to NOT buy it.

[Guest deleted@1562]

Somehow DCS:P51 has set a benchmark for the simulation of a warbird. CloD feels like an arcade game regarding engine management and flight model. So if BoS wants my money it either has to reach the sim level of DCS:P-51 or has to provide a great deal of "being there" feeling, which for me is an immersive scripted offline campaign with believeable missions (like the desastersoft campaigns for CloD) and AI. Or coop campaigns (like NGEN or DCG for IL2), so I can fly with the squad mates again, instead of playing Arma2 coops.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I think we dont need this kind of topic, not because its says what it loses, in your opinion, its just because I see it as an attack to dev team (1c Game studios) as you just bring up negatives aspects, again in your honest opinion, but forget to say nothing positive, and if you think it doesnt gain nothing..well I will give you something you gain..a working sim out of the box, and let me tell you, this was not the case when CloD was release and was the main reason for me to NOT buy it.

 

Yes and no, as far as Zorin may be concerned the 1946/CloD series is changing developer, engine, the way planes are sold and he has no guarantee that things he liked most in old series will be represented well enough in new game.  Only thing we can discuss is our belief (or lack of) that the game will be worth buying, his favourite features or not.

[Zorin]

I will be buying this as same as I buyed il2/46 and RoF (released with 4 planes I think under Neoqb).

 

I think we dont need this kind of topic, not because its says what it loses, in your opinion, its just because I see it as an attack to dev team (1c Game studios) as you just bring up negatives aspects, again in your honest opinion, but forget to say nothing positive, and if you think it doesnt gain nothing..well I will give you something you gain..a working sim out of the box, and let me tell you, this was not the case when CloD was release and was the main reason for me to NOT buy it.

 

You miss the point, no one is talking about CloD as the main reference product. IL-2/46 is.

 

Besides, they axed CloD, a project of great promise that succumbed to its own ambitions, yet in their announcement of the new title there is not ONE selling point to convince anyone that BoS will be a product to lead the way forward. All that anyone so far, no matter veteran of the flight sim community or not, can read, is that they lose all ambition of CloD and just merged teams to rescue what possible revenue is left to be had from the CloD journey. All this with the help of a succesful engine/game, but that still only makes it a rebadge in my book.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Zorin

[Higaluto]

Well...

 

After reading all offical statements and Jason's first answers I have no clue who will want to buy BOS.

 

It loses:

 

- most of the techincal FM deatils of CloD, which were the natural evolution of IL-2/46

- the detailed 3D models of CloD, especially cockpits

- does not provide a campaign building feature apart from 3rd party solutions some time down the road

- the number of planes at release, 10, even though of considerably lesser deatil compared to CloD, is laughable, as they MUST include certain types that will likely be AI only (Ju52s, Li2s, gliders)

- 95% of the content IL-2/46 has to offer

 

 

So really, why would anyone want to buy this if he can get unmeasurably more out of the good old Il-2, especially seeing where TD is taking it.

 

 

Please discuss.

Well..

 

It will gain.

 

Draw distance. No more trouble bombing because you can actualy see your target from afar.

Clouds.

Weather effects, rain, overcast.

Proper historical plane perfomance.

Realistic Tracers.

Superb visual propeler effect.

Start up sounds. (still cant hear my engine sounds on idle online in CLOD)

Dynamic campain?

Easy to use fast mission generator and alot of single missions.

Realy nice main menu interface with descriptions and live 3d models of every plane in the game.

Slow motion sounds witch its just fantastic for replays.

And exelent replay functions with time bar so you actualy go backwards in your tracks instead of having to start watching over again to get to the action scenes.

Easy camera controls, no need to deactivate track ir to look around your airplane in external view.

 

You know, all around Rof is a such much better product that i cant even explain it, you have to try it. And know these guys are working on ww2 and stalingrad, i just cant belive it. Im realy looking forward to this.

I dont know how BOS will be, but i am pretty sure it will not lack any features of ROF, it will probaly bring more

[Laser]

I don't understand why people don't finally "get it" - if this cooperation is in place, it means it was a necessity from both parts. There is nothing to discuss, this is the situation, get over it. Neither all RoF die-hards are 100% happy because it will slow ww1 development, nor all CloD hardcore fans are 100% happy because their beloved (now ...) engine won't be used, but man, this is life!

 

If you reverse the perspective, finally RoF will have the chance to revamp its internal engine to 2014 standards, put additional effort into the campaign system, and BoS etc. will become a platform for "n" flight combat theaters, starting from a product that *works*.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Yes and no, as far as Zorin may be concerned the 1946/CloD series is changing developer, engine, the way planes are sold and he has no guarantee that things he liked most in old series will be represented well enough in new game.  Only thing we can discuss is our belief (or lack of) that the game will be worth buying, his favourite features or not.

 

yeah i get your point, just let us dont forget that both teams had worked before in il2 series, as Jason did some stuff for original il2 (dont remember what but..) and RoF was first thought to be built in il2 engine. Allways in these kind of products, sims or anything that need a project managment behind, not all the customers will get what they want at release. But with a good management team behind, and trust me, 777 team is impresive at this, customers get what they want in one point or another. Ohh and in diary post Loft comment that the want to do someway like il2:sturmovik as they think it was great.

Edited December 14, 2012 by SYN_Haashashin

[vl6]

So it begins another useless topic. The new game not even exist yet, it's pointless start making predictions.
Unless you are a seer, I ask "whats the point" of this topic? There's dozens of others like this and the conclusion is always the same : nothing.
What we should do is make constructive questions, not predict the failure of something that barely have a name.

[SYN_Vander]

The point is:

 

If you are 100% happy with CloD as it is then indeed you might not be interested in this new product.

 

I don't fall in the above category and I'm definitely interested and would like to buy BoS because I compare it with the old IL-2 and RoF. I also think it's great that Loft is so open and gives honest, straightforward answers at the start of the project.

Edited December 14, 2012 by SYN_Vander

[SYN_Haashashin]

You miss the point, no one is talking about CloD as the main reference product. IL-2/46 is.

 

Besides, they axed CloD, a project of great promise that succumbed to its own ambitions, yet in their announcement of the new title there is not ONE selling point to convince anyone that BoS will be a product to lead the way forward. All that anyone so far, no matter veteran of the flight sim community or not, can read, is that they lose all ambition of CloD and just merged teams to rescue what possible revenue is left to be had from the CloD journey. All this with the help of a succesful engine/game, but that still only makes it a rebadge in my book.

 

To me is more like merged teams so we can still have a WWII developer, because it was this or just 777 with WWI.

And taking a 10 year old product (il2/46) is not a good example, business are not done the same way now days...no one in his mind will release a sim with all the possible content and all the things you want/believe a sim should have for just 50 Euros...think about DCS series or even worst..microsoft flight simulator series (the civil sim)..I saw once that they sell Frankfurt airport as a addon for 70 euros!!!

Edited December 14, 2012 by SYN_Haashashin

[Zorin]

To me is more like merged teams so we can still have a WWII developer, because it was this or just 777 with WWI.

And taking a 10 year old product (il2/46) is not a good example, business are not done the same way now days...no one in his mind will release a sim with all the possible content and all the things you want/believe a sim should have for just 50 Euros...think about DCS series or even worst..microsoft flight simulator series (the civil sim)..I saw once that they sell Frankfurt airport as a addon for 70 euros!!!

 

Exactly, so why bother if you can't bring us anything that absolutely outshines all the content(IL-2/46+CloD) that is lost? Why would you buy such a product? It's not like you would buy a car that has a fantastic stereo system but an interior made of garden furniture and an engine from a lawn mower, would you? Mercedes made the exact same mistake with their Maybach revival. It was a brilliant car, but it looked oddly dated and did show signs of ages very early and of course of the most grief mistake CUTTING CORNERS.

 

My point is, a new product must surpasse all gone before it otherwise there is no sane business case to be had wtih it. Especially when it parades under such a reknown name.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Zorin

[=IRFC=Huetz]

To me is more like merged teams so we can still have a WWII developer, because it was this or just 777 with WWI.

And taking a 10 year old product (il2/46) is not a good example, business are not done the same way now days...no one in his mind will release a sim with all the possible content and all the things you want/believe a sim should have for just 50 Euros...think about DCS series or even worst..microsoft flight simulator series (the civil sim)..I saw one that they sell Frankfurt airpot as a addon for 70 euros!!!

 

This pretty much. I also believe that this move is just a sign of how inherently borked the remainders of the CloD engine still were, there's a reason a team pulls the plug on a project and moves to a different engine after all.

 

May the CloD engine have been useable/better for the job somewhere down the road? Who knows, seeing how it ran in the beginning and seeing how poorly it still can run occasionally after all the patches doesn't get me too excited.

 

If that move means trading of some (not even key) features to get a usable and 100% working WWII sim out of this then so be it.  WWII is much more demanding in some areas that were a little behind in RoF/DN Engine and it's not like the RoF core dev team doesn't have a history of actually improving on those areas first before implementing great features.

 

It's about time we get the idea out of our head that CloD was the way into the future, it was many things - good and bad - but that it was not.

 

It's also time to calm everyone's tits for a moment. You can download a "tech demo" on how good the DN engine actually runs (even on old, crappy systems) with the free to play RoF client and see for yourself if that helps. These guys definately know what they're doing.

[slm]

 

Trupobaw: like Zorin later clarified he was comparing the new game with to IL2. Asking what's the point - hinting that there wouldn't be any advantages. I'm assuming that BoS will be better than RoF, thus my question. Not about "which game is better".

 

[Zorin]

If that move means trading of some (not even key) features to get a usable and 100% working WWII sim out of this then so be it. 

 

 

Which IL-2/46 is not??

[SYN_Haashashin]

Content lost...ok lost to il2/46 you mean.... Well then as Vander said, if you are 100% happy with il2/46, you wont be interested in this product, I respect it and understand it but I am interested and will support BoS because tech speaking, BoS will be 10 year modern than old il2, and we all knows how tech has improved in those years.

[=IRFC=Huetz]

Sorry, but if you have ever set in a real plane than you will notice just how dated the original/'46 series is, that doesn't even include picking on the graphical content.

 

There's a world's difference between hardcoded and dynamicly calculated FMs for one. All that a lot of people wanted to begin with was an updated, improved version of the originals. I am a 100% positive that this is what we will get with BoS initially, then following the same path as RoF with new, unique features.

 

Judging by all your posts so far, I am under the impression that you are looking for an experience that I doubt will run smoothly even on 2015 hardware. There's a fix to that, less time playing disgruntled, utopian naysayer on the forums and starting real life flying. Don't get me wrong, it's good to be remain critical and to be demanding in this genre but all within a realistic scope.

 

You're of course entitled to your opinion - just don't think that you will be happy with the final product.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Huetz

[ST_Catchov]

 I also think it's great that Loft is so open and gives honest, straightforward answers at the start of the project.

 

Yes this is very important although people will see things they don't like and start topics like this. :D  So be it. You gotta draw a line in the sand and get on with it.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

New developer diary and also most oif JAson's post seem mostly aimed to perk the high expectations and demands we might have. I think that's a good thing...start right away to create a realistic image of what the product will be and most of all, what it WON'T be.

 

Its success will be accessibility: good interface, easier to learn although still aimed at the sim-crowd, easier to run on lower end PC's, easy to add DLC and expand into different theaters. And not overly ambitious, so hopefully a project that will still be around after 10 years without drowning in its own unreachable goals.

 

But the tradeoff will be that it's not as highfi as CloD.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

Somehow DCS:P51 has set a benchmark for the simulation of a warbird. CloD feels like an arcade game regarding engine management and flight model. So if BoS wants my money it either has to reach the sim level of DCS:P-51 or has to provide a great deal of "being there" feeling, which for me is an immersive scripted offline campaign with believeable missions (like the desastersoft campaigns for CloD) and AI. Or coop campaigns (like NGEN or DCG for IL2), so I can fly with the squad mates again, instead of playing Arma2 coops.

Even though , as a sim-enthusiast, I love the simulation part of our genre... what you said just there,.. the sensation of "beeing there" aka immersion, is immensly important , but also the "fun factor". I am quite aware that it's a balance act weighing these together...but from what I can tell from my experience with RoF (not beeing a HUGE WWi buff though) this team has delivered a very nice balance. I am actually quite optimisitic about this project... let them tweak the engine, the gfx a bit more up to par with 2013 and I am quite confident that we will have a great title... a good start and a great platform for future theatres of war.

[Zorin]

Sorry, but if you have ever set in a real plane than you will notice just how dated the original/'46 series is, that doesn't even include picking on the graphical content.

 

There's a world's difference between hardcoded and dynamicly calculated FMs for one. All that a lot of people wanted to begin with was an updated, improved version of the originals. I am a 100% positive that this is what we will get with BoS initially, then following the same path as RoF with new, unique features.

 

Judging by all your posts so far, I am under the impression that you are looking for an experience that I doubt will run smoothly even on 2015 hardware. There's a fix to that, less time playing disgruntled, utopian naysayer on the forums and starting real life flying. Don't get me wrong, it's good to be remain critical and to be demanding in this genre but all within a realistic scope.

 

I am not a naysayer and I will happily trade in content, but only for something that has not been seen before and I am very much in doubt that BoS will provide that in the crucial release phase.

 

Improved FMs/DMs etc. are a given, IMO and NOT a selling point, btw, as well as environment objects, as ElAurens pointed out in another thread. They picked a scenario and they have to provide an immersive world showing that. Anyone who is involved with this era will have a basic knowledge of what tanks, vehicles and weaponary was around and that HAS to be there.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Zorin

[J2_Trupobaw]

You miss the point, no one is talking about CloD as the main reference product. IL-2/46 is.

 

Besides, they axed CloD, a project of great promise that succumbed to its own ambitions, yet in their announcement of the new title there is not ONE selling point to convince anyone that BoS will be a product to lead the way forward. All that anyone so far, no matter veteran of the flight sim community or not, can read, is that they lose all ambition of CloD and just merged teams to rescue what possible revenue is left to be had from the CloD journey. All this with the help of a succesful engine/game, but that still only makes it a rebadge in my book.

 

 

The selling point: it will work. It will not succumb to it's own ambitions. It will not overpromise some things then underdeliever others trying to fulfill it. The developers will concentrate on things that can be done, flatly tell players that things they can't afford to work on won't be worked on, and deliver a working product (if working to their dull, realistic specifications). 

 

The ambition has run the CloD to the ground and it must go.

 

Also, the conjecture on team merging: CloD with is ambitious approach has not, as many people seem to assume, been abandoned because 777 team moved in. 777 had to be invited over because CloD had to be abandoned, already beyond rescue, and 777 was our only alternative. It's a lifeboat situation, not walk the plank situation.

 

Edit: we were posting simultanously. Again, to early to tell what "not-seen-before" content will be there. I expect it will work for me, can't sat if it will work for you. Also, add weather to the FM/DM feature list . 

Edited December 14, 2012 by Trupobaw

[=IRFC=Huetz]

New developer diary and also most oif JAson's post seem mostly aimed to perk the high expectations and demands we might have. I think that's a good thing...start right away to create a realistic image of what the product will be and most of all, what it WON'T be.

 

Its success will be accessibility: good interface, easier to learn although still aimed at the sim-crowd, easier to run on lower end PC's, easy to add DLC and expand into different theaters. And not overly ambitious, so hopefully a project that will still be around after 10 years without drowning in its own unreachable goals.

 

But the tradeoff will be that it's not as highfi as CloD.

 

Which would actually be the the sequel that the original IL2 deserves including the option to further expand.

 

I am not a naysayer and I will happily trade in content, but only for something that has not been seen before and I am very much in doubt that BoS will provide that in the crucial release phase.

 

Improved FMs/DMs etc. are a given, IMO and NOT a selling point, btw.

 

My statement is retracted then. Point remains, given the the track record of the team behind RoF we're highly likely to see a very basic release and content added gradually which has worked great so far not only in giving us demanding consumers cool new features to play with but also keeping the project going over an expanded period of time.

 

In your specific case you will probably be better of simply holding off from the intial release and jumping in at a later point.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

So like RoF, it won't be the most interesting title at the start...and the more succesful it becomes, the more momentum it gets. New content, new players, until the new IL2 simulates enough theatres and planes that you can't get around it any more.

 

But it starts, it seems, with dissapointment for those who expect an improved CloD . A phase we must go through. Hopefully it will end quickly.

Edited December 14, 2012 by hq_Jorri

[addman]

Wow! the ignorance is really shining through in a lot of the threads around here. We barely have any details about BoS and what will be included, how can you compare BoS -a product that only exists in name so far- with something like IL-2 46 which has been in development for a total of over 12 years?! How can you compare BoS to ANYTHING? It's like, hey! check out my new imaginary car I have in my mind, it's much better than your old Volvo. God have mercy upon us all....

[SYN_Haashashin]

 

Improved FMs/DMs etc. are a given, IMO and NOT a seliing point.

 

You trully believe that after 10 yearsof tech advances, the FM and DM wont be better in BoS than in il2/46?? and please could you link me to where 1c games studios use this as a selling point??

 

addman right on the spot

Edited December 14, 2012 by SYN_Haashashin

[Zorin]

Wow! the ignorance is really shining through in a lot of the threads around here. We barely have any details about BoS and what will be included, how can you compare BoS -a product that only exists in name so far- with something like IL-2 46 which has been in development for a total of over 12 years?! How can you compare BoS to ANYTHING? It's like, hey! check out my new imaginary car I have in my mind, it's much better than your old Volvo. God have mercy upon us all....

 

The only one being ignorant, is you. Why? Cause you suggest that, for the greater good of a yet unknown product, we shall forget all our established standards/reference points (Il-2/46/RoF/CloD)?

 

That is like forgetting that your old Volvo kept breaking down and rusted before your eyes and yet you will happily buy a new one cause it may surprise you and prove you wrong in assuming that volvo lost their plot?

 

That would at least explain why certain cars are still bought today...

 

You trully believe that after 10 yearsof tech advances, the FM and DM wont be better in BoS than in il2/46?? and please could you link me to where 1c games studios use this as a selling point??

 

addman right on the spot

 

May I suggest you learn to read and comprehend? What I wrote meant that imporved FMs/DMs will of course be part of BoS (fingers crossed), but that can not be a selling point, because it must be expected of a new product.

[ST_Catchov]

I think I'm gonna like it here.

[addman]

I think I'm gonna like it here.

LOL! yeah, it's like a parallel universe where everything is reversed. The CloD crusaders are now whiners and the CloD whiners are now BoS crusaders, this is really turning in to a swell place to have civilized discussion.

 

The only one being ignorant, is you. Why? Cause you suggest that, for the greater good of a yet unknown product, we shall forget all our established standards/reference points (Il-2/46/RoF/CloD)?

 

That is like forgetting that your old Volvo kept breaking down and rusted before your eyes and yet you will happily buy a new one cause it may surprise you and prove you wrong in assuming that volvo lost their plot?

 

That would at least explain why certain cars are still bought today...

 

 

May I suggest you learn to read and comprehend? What I wrote meant that imporved FMs/DMs will of course be part of BoS (fingers crossed), but that can not be a selling point, because it must be expected of a new product.

 

I'm just saying, why don't you wait until there's a finished piece of software and try it out before you make your judgements or pre-/assumptions?

Edited December 14, 2012 by addman

[SYN_Haashashin]

May I suggest you learn to read and comprehend? What I wrote meant that imporved FMs/DMs will of course be part of BoS (fingers crossed), but that can not be a selling point, because it must be expected of a new product.

 

Ok.

[=IRFC=Huetz]

LOL! yeah, it's like a parallel universe where everything is reversed. The CloD crusaders are now whiners and the CloD whiners are now BoS crusaders, this is really turning in to a swell place to have civilized discussion.

 

I for one am looking forward to a lot of real threadnoughts containing at least some, if not all of the following:

 

Drama, wild speculations, assumptions, fighting windmills, fighting assumptions, virtual stampedes, more drama, accusations and last but not least irrational excpectations.

 

My standards are pretty high these days but this looks like a place that may be able to deliver.

[FlatSpinMan]

The selling point: it will work. It will not succumb to it's own ambitions. It will not overpromise some things then underdeliver others trying to fulfill it. The developers will concentrate on things that can be done, flatly tell players that things they can't afford to work on won't be worked on, and deliver a working product (if working to their dull, realistic specifications). 

This is such a good post. This practicality is why I am hopeful about this new sim. Everyone has learned from the problems of CloD and no one wanted the lesson to be so painful, we all wanted it to be a success.

[addman]

This is such a good post. This practicality is why I am hopeful about this new sim. Everyone has learned from the problems of CloD and no one wanted the lesson to be so painful, we all wanted it to be a success.

Yes! I was shouting "holy glory hallelujah" on the rafters right before CloD was released and I just ended up disappointed and bitter, now I actually feel some hope for the series. Luthier and his team tried but I never really had the feeling that they were on the right track. Still, I'm going for a more cautious optimism this time around.

[Zorin]

I'm just saying, why don't you wait until there's a finished piece of software and try it out before you make your judgements or pre-/assumptions?

 

Wait for the devs to be done with their talking, not taking on board any input from their community and end up with a product that doesn't suit the market? Sounds oddly familiar...

[pupaxx]

The statement that bothers me the most is...

 

15) Do you plan the level of graphics cockpits like in basic models in CLOD (Spitfire/Bf-109)?

 

No. You will not see this. The reasons are simple. The creation of one such cockpit takes a year, sometimes more. The popularity of the genre has to be phenomenal for such expenses were justified. If we are not careful, the budget ends and with it the end of the project. It is also not too wise to use more PC than necessary and use twenty textures, where it was sufficient to use three. Not being smart with resources can result in serious performance problems. We hope to find a balanced solution. Good performance with nice looking cockpits.

 

I hope that my fears will be swept away but to renounce to a feature like CloD cockpit LOD (dynamic shadows and so on) would be a leap in the dark..

Will see...

Salute to you all, what a strange feeling is chatting on the new forum..do not you too?

[SYN_Haashashin]

Wait for the devs to be done with their talking, not taking on board any input from their community and end up with a product that doesn't suit the market? Sounds oddly familiar...

 

Ok this end this topic for me, you just dont know how 777 run their business, never seen a company that take so much input from their community, you can ask anytime anyone that is in RoF community. Just wait and see BoS. if you dont like it, keep flying il2/46. See ya all in the skies.