Winning the 109 vs Yak1 matchup from the Soviet side

[JG13_opcode]

Is this a classic "angles vs energy" scenario?  If you look at the stats of the two birds,

 

For the F-4:

• Power loading: ~0.23 hp/lb
• Wing loading: ~35 lb/ft²

And for the Yak-1:

• Power loading: ~0.19 hp/lb
• Wing loading: ~34 lb/ft²

The wing loading is actually pretty similar but the power loading between the two aircraft favours the 109 by about 20%, so I'd guess this is what Shaw might call a "dissimilar" engagement, or the case of "Low Wing loading" vs "High T/W".  The 109, being the high-T/W fighter, should obviously exploit its advantages in level speed and sustained climb.  I used to be a 109 guy pretty exclusively through 1946 and the little bit of CLOD that I played, and that definitely jives with my experiences flying it.

 

For the Yak pilot, I'm sure Shaw would advocate a lot of nose-to-nose turns and flat scissors because the Dissimilar case assumes the Low-Wing Loading fighter has a sustained turn advantage and better low-speed performance.

 

But I'm thinking a flat scissors would be suicidal for a Yak pilot:  the 109 actually does those really well thanks to the leading-edge slats and lots of power to help it mush through the air at high AOA.  In fact I think most of what Shaw would say is the "correct" play for the Yak pilot (not sweating the overshoots so much because your sustained-turn advantage will help you out, etc.) seems contrary to even playing with the AI (which is always trash compared to humans).  Back in the 1946 days on the rare occasions I flew Yaks, I found the 190s to be pretty easy pickings if you caught them at co-energy but the 109s really gave me trouble (and I rarely had trouble shooting down the Yaks when flying the messer unless I got sloppy).

 

Given that I just picked this game up last week, what's an aspiring VVS pilot to do?  Assuming a Co-E forward-quarter merge, can the Yak smash the fascist invaders?  Will the shameful Nazi aircraft win the day every time?  Gotta defend the glorious motherland.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Bring a wingman...............or four.

 

As a lone wolf, lure them into a low level turn fight. You will bait lots of TNB guys using the 109/190 incorrectly and occasionally sucker a qualified pilot into the same. Doing this near the furball will just attract the BNZ guys so make sure you are 1v1 first. A good 109 pilot will beat you in the vertical. A good 190 pilot will either beat you in the vertical or extend away and return on their own terms.

[JG13_opcode]

Bring a wingman...............or four.

 

As a lone wolf, lure them into a low level turn fight. You will bait lots of TNB guys using the 109/190 incorrectly and occasionally sucker a qualified pilot into the same. Doing this near the furball will just attract the BNZ guys so make sure you are 1v1 first. A good 109 pilot will beat you in the vertical. A good 190 pilot will either beat you in the vertical or extend away and return on their own terms.

Yeah bringing a wingman and engaging from an advantageous position kinda go without saying.

 

But everybody gets caught on even terms sooner or later, and let's say you're 1v1 against a 109 at the same speed and alt.

[Y-29.Silky]

Keeping my speed in the Yak is how I've brought down 109's. Every time I tried turn fighting a 109, I put myself at a disadvantage because I bled my energy, and the 109 can regain that energy far quicker than my Yak and the 109 will have a field day on a low energy Yak. I even beat 109's in the vertical because I wasn't turning sharp, I was keeping my speed. Only turn fight in emergencies, all it takes is one low yoyo for the 109 to regain his advantage.

Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.

Edited June 17, 2015 by [Y-29]Silky

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yeah bringing a wingman and engaging from an advantageous position kinda go without saying.

 

But everybody gets caught on even terms sooner or later, and let's say you're 1v1 against a 109 at the same speed and alt.

Hence, the second line of my post. Try to lure them into a low level turn fight when 1v1. It's your best bet but can be defeated or extended from, with fair regularity, by an experienced Luftwaffe jock.

[BraveSirRobin]

Your best bet against a good pilot is to hope they run out of ammo before they can kill you.

[JG13_opcode]

Your best bet against a good pilot is to hope they run out of ammo before they can kill you.

So you think the Yak has no advantages?

[BraveSirRobin]

So you think the Yak has no advantages?

 

It has some advantages if you can get the 109 to piss away all his energy and turn with you.  But a good pilot won't do that.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Of course some sneaky Yak and La-5 pilots climb higher and bounce 109's from above   

The Mig 3 will be interesting

[JG13_opcode]

It has some advantages if you can get the 109 to piss away all his energy and turn with you.  But a good pilot won't do that.

Okay but assume you begin the fight at energy parity.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

If you start at parity you will either have to get an enemy pilot to turn with you or you will not have parity for long. An experienced German pilot in a 109 will always out accelerate and out climb you, at will, from Co-E or better. The Yak has very good energy retention for (short) zoom climbs, level speed out of a dive and turns. It is outclassed in sustained climb, acceleration, maximum dive and dash speeds. In short; have the energy advantage, bring a wingman or get him to turn. Anything else is a recipe for disaster - short of the German pilot making a significant tactical error. Even then, unless you are able to capitalize, the 109 will be able to extend and set up again. I'm not sure what answer you are looking for. There is no secret the 109 is a better AC than the Yak in most regards, so long as it is flown correctly. The Yak is better only in a fairly narrow portion of the flight envelope. The 190 has a different flight envelope but generally outclasses the Yak in most regards as well.

Edited June 17, 2015 by [TBC]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The F-4 can turn with Yaks no problem when you just set trim around -50% and stick neutral.

[Wulf]

Use your flaps..... 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

The F-4 can turn with Yaks no problem when you just set trim around -50% and stick neutral.

 

Please can you explain, I don't understand how the trim affects/helps in a turn fight.

 

What do you set a yak's trim at if you engage in combat?

 

Thanks.

[SR-F_Winger]

The F-4 can turn with Yaks no problem when you just set trim around -50% and stick neutral.

[Edited]

Maybe for half a turn yes. Then the 109 burned its energy like a plane with deployed flaps should. Unlike the YAK-1 of course.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Bearcat

[=FI=Rambo]

From my experiences (and that is limited) if a 109 knows what he is doing you are going to be at a disadvantage  very fast.  from that point on I have found successes in staying fast and forcing the 109 pilot to get super aggressive to get a good shot on me. The longer you live the better your chances that he will turn to tight or climb at a wrong angle allowing you to get 1 or 2 small precious windows of opportunity.  109 pilots are human and will get frustrated with you eventually. When that happens they get aggressive like I said before or they will disengage and look for an easier target.

 

But again I am not an expert and this is what I have seen from my experiences 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

From my experience, once you get down and dirty with a yak, either he gets the advantage after a bit of turning and you are dead, or his teammate comes along and burns you. Either way you are dead. My best success comes from making a few very fast mock charges so he turns hard and bleeds speed and energy while you stay high above. After one or 2 false swoops you try and get a couple of good hits to maime him and then hope he goes down. Invariably if you hang around much longer you'll find about 6 of his teammates on your ass and you're dead. Also you can't dive too steep or else you lose control and slam into the ground. Its a very fine line and you need to clear your tail after each swoop and make sure you can make another. 

 

If I am lone wolf and I find a pair working together I disengage and run even if I am high above. You can take a shot or two but if you don't disengage after that, you are toast. The longer you take to down a russkie the more likely you are to die as well.

 

I have watched Wahn and MrX take guys down very quickly as they rarely miss on those first passes. Lovely to watch, I must say.

 

If you are in a yak, there is pretty much an opportunity to engage if you are at a similar E and its one on one. You can always get out of trouble by pulling an inexperienced 109 pilot into a turnfight.

[Wulf]

 

 

But again I am not an expert and this is what I have seen from my experiences 

 

 

Should have a gig at the Apollo you should.  "..not an expert" ... hahahahahahah.....

 

Hope you're well Rambo...S!

Edited June 18, 2015 by Wulf

[ShamrockOneFive]

The wing loading is a lot closer than I would have expected. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Yak's design favours turn a little more than the 109s more streamlined wings? I'm a little foggy on the NACA profiles and so forth but the wingloading plus the wing profile and you can see why a Yak pilot might favour trying to get into a turn.

 

Having flown a bit online with this game and extensively with the last... the thing to do is to try and whittle down the 109s energy state. He can recover quickly but the Yak is "close enough" in most of the flight regime that you can't just escape in a 109 easily. So you break him down, try and get him to turn while you maintain an energy advantage and then catch him in the corners.

 

For the 109... avoiding those corners is probably your best bet. Give yourself enough time to stay out of reach of the Yak's guns and reposition for another attack.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I just tried sustained turns. Yak-1 does 17.5 seconds at SL, the F-4 at combat mode does 18.5 seconds and 17.5 at WEP. The Yak-1 will at some point overheat.

Edit: without flaps of course

Edited June 18, 2015 by myfabi94

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I get down to 18 seconds with flaps. So yeah, you can turn with yaks.

[SR-F_Winger]

I get down to 18 seconds with flaps. So yeah, you can turn with yaks.

Maybe with non flapbug exploiting YAK-1s. But there arent any online.

So you talk hypothetically.

[Finkeren]

Maybe with non flapbug exploiting YAK-1s. But there arent any online.

So you talk hypothetically.

 

BS. I fly Yak maybe 60% of the time, and I never use flaps for anything but landing. And I'm far from alone in this.

[SR-F_Winger]

exceptions just certify the rule:)

If its clear what i mean. In germany there is a saying: "Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel."

[Finkeren]

Tbh. the reason I fly without flaps is not just to be 'historically accurate'. I actually like to win the energy game, not rely on pulling sharp angles at slow speed and get in a pot shot once in a while from insane deflection angles. I can't do that with my flaps down, and as I said, I'm not the only guy who flies like that. There's this insane guy on the DED Normal server who flies his LaGG-3 so well, he's taking down the far majority of the 109 jockeys at their own game in tight vertical dog fights. Never seen the guy use flaps, he's just managing his energy like a boss.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

There's this insane guy on the DED Normal server who flies his LaGG-3 so well, he's taking down the far majority of the 109 jockeys at their own game in tight vertical dog fights. Never seen the guy use flaps, he's just managing his energy like a boss.

 

I think I got shown a thing or 2 by him yesterday!! Antonuy or something? He had me on the ropes with a spiral climb in my f-4! I normally outclimb the yaks nooo problem but he stuck with me and even almost got on top of me in a Lagg! I am not the greatest but I can hold my own once I get a bit of an advantage but this guy just dominated me from tree level to 4000m. It was only when Vessel arrived in a G2 that he disengaged. Vessel gave up trying to catch him, but I was so mad I chased him all the way to the deck and eventually managed to put him down. But S! to him....the man was a real ace.

[SR-F_Winger]

I think I got shown a thing or 2 by him yesterday!! Antonuy or something? He had me on the ropes with a spiral climb in my f-4! I normally outclimb the yaks nooo problem but he stuck with me and even almost got on top of me in a Lagg! I am not the greatest but I can hold my own once I get a bit of an advantage but this guy just dominated me from tree level to 4000m. It was only when Vessel arrived in a G2 that he disengaged. Vessel gave up trying to catch him, but I was so mad I chased him all the way to the deck and eventually managed to put him down. But S! to him....the man was a real ace.

So a LAGG climbing after an F4 from treetop to 4k. And thats all just based on the skill. Hmhmmmmm. Sure.

Wrong planeperformance, no overheat and things like that might surely have nothing to do with that!

Cmon guys. you cant be serious - really:)

Edited June 18, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[Brano]

Only one who cant be taken seriously,is you.

[BraveSirRobin]

So a LAGG climbing after an F4 from treetop to 4k. And thats all just based on the skill. Hmhmmmmm. Sure.

Wrong planeperformance, no overheat and things like that might surely have nothing to do with that!

Cmon guys. you cant be serious - really:)

 

The LAGG can't climb with the 109 to 4k, so the problem here isn't the plane's performance.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

To be fair the Lagg is the least troubling fighter in the VVS arsenal. There's still a great bunch of people calling it "bad" and "unflyable" although some guys like me like and specialised on it. I've  also given 109s a neat suprise by not nessecarily shooting them down, but suprising them with better manouvres or carefull handling to somewhat keep up with them in vertical combat.

 

As to the initial question the Yak is totally able to beat the F-4 (which not nessecarily needs to be flown by a rookie, cause exploits/bugs...).  Your goal is to keep the element of suprise on your side and force your adversary to maouvre with you. The lower you push him the better, so don't blindly climb up to him but lure him down.

 

Turning, while superiour to the F4, is not that much of an benefit in the first place. In contary the F4 can utilize it's stab trimming at high speed for better initial turn performance while the Yak wins in continues turning. At low speed the Yak is (arguably) superiour (see exploit/bug discussions).

 

To summarize: When talking about 1 plane beating the other numbers don't tell much, at least when comparing the 109 with the Yak. On most occasions the situation and your pilot expirience can easily overcome any technical differences between you and the opposing aircraft. If you fly carefull and operate from safe altitude the F-4 has the edge, if you know how and when to engage your enemy in suprise and luring him to to fight with you on equal level the Yak is superiour.

 

This does only account for the F4 though as the G-2 has worse performance (accurate) and worse flight characteristics. In a combat between these 2 the Yak clearly has the edge despite the G2's speed advantage.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SR-F_Winger]

The LAGG can't climb with the 109 to 4k, so the problem here isn't the plane's performance.

So the other guy that told the story was lying? Or maybe just didnt realize it wasnt a LAGG but a YAK-1 maybe? As if this would render the happenig historically accurate...

Well, pointless to discuss.

 

Brano: Yeah whatever dude:P

Edited June 18, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I never have problems with laggs but this guy managed energy and his moves like a boss..... I really struggled to shake him.

 

Like I said, I am no pro but I not for once said the Lagg is OP.... I just said that this pilot really knew how to fly and perform well in a Lagg and its performance really surprised me. If we were both in the same planes he would have owned me no matter what advantage I might have had.

[BraveSirRobin]

So the other guy that told the story was lying? 

 

No, you're just missing the point.  The problem isn't the aircraft, the problem is the pilot.  If you're in a 109 and you can't outclimb a LAGG or a Yak, you're doing something very wrong.

[SR-F_Winger]

So he WAS climbing after you to 4k from the deck?

No, you're just missing the point.  The problem isn't the aircraft, the problem is the pilot.  If you're in a 109 and you can't outclimb a LAGG or a Yak, you're doing something very wrong.

OK. I consider myself no ace but no bad (virtual)pilot either. And i too had YAKs climbing after me to even 8k laving me unable to really shake him.

EVEN if he had an energyadvantage it should have benn nagated up to this height.

Also i dont see where someone can do anything wrong when flying a 109. Its really not rocketscience to climb at a constant speed.

Edited June 18, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[6./ZG26_Emil]

You can easily out climb a Yak in a G2 above 5k and above 7 the Yak wont have a chance.

[BraveSirRobin]

Also i dont see where someone can do anything wrong when flying a 109. Its really not rocketscience to climb at a constant speed.

 

I'm actually terrible at it.  I'll climb too steep and then not steep enough.  Pretty much anyone can keep up with me in a climb, unless they're in a LAGG.  Now, if the LAGG driver is really smooth and he can force the 109 to maneuver enough to waste some energy, he can probably make it tough for a 109 pilot who is having a bad day to get away.

 

Having said that, with equal pilots the 109 easily outclimbs the LAGG.

[SR-F_Winger]

Guys i dont want to annoy anyone. Its pointless to discuss FMs. So much i have learned in all the years. Sorry i did even bother in the first place.

Just have fun flying:)

[BraveSirRobin]

Guys i dont want to annoy anyone. Its pointless to discuss FMs. So much i have learned in all the years. Sorry i did even bother in the first place.

Just have fun flying:)

 

It's definitely pointless for you to keep pretending that the 109 isn't vastly superior to all the VVS aircraft.

[JG13_opcode]

Discussing the FMs is never pointless: the engineering of the plane dictates the tactics the pilot may employ.

[unreasonable]

I cannot help feeling that, with all the angst these relatively small performance differences generate in the flier's mind, it might not be better simply to enter a fight - or not - assuming that the enemy aircraft has identical performance to your own.

 

That way at least the pilot will concentrate elements such as the Dicta Boelcke which are in the pilot's control.

 

I can see that this might not work so well for Fw190 vs Yak, where the performance differences are more marked, but maybe for the 109 vs Yak scenario?

 

What would be interesting would be a MP set up that had the same planes on each side - it would be fun to see if people believed that the two side's really had different FMs.