Are flight-Simmers goin to end up like Dinosaurs ?

[BlitzPig_EL]

CLoD was built with a brand new engine, it was always going to cost money and time. a big risk.

BoS was built around an existing engine aimed at the ww2 crowd. Not much of a risk. The EA proved a lot of folk were interested, the dcs kickstarter proves there is still a demand for the genre.

I have no problem sitting at my desk with all the peripherals if the game is engaging. BOS is not engaging.

There is a demand for the genre. We've got to ask ourselves why the current crop of cfs are not engaging the customers. We may be dinosaurs but it's still the Jurassic era.

 

Well said sir.

[BraveSirRobin]

the dcs kickstarter proves there is still a demand for the genre.

 

The DCS kickstarter proved that there are people willing to buy in if the developer is willing to give away the game practically for free.  Unfortunately, when the developer gives the game away they don't stay in business for long, which is also proved by the DCS kickstarter.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

It raised 158k didn't it? I can't see how that is enough to develop an entire game.

[BraveSirRobin]

It raised 158k didn't it? I can't see how that is enough to develop an entire game.

 

It wasn't even enough to finance the kickstarter rewards.

[unreasonable]

It raised 158k didn't it? I can't see how that is enough to develop an entire game.

 

This is it in a nutshell. Not knowing the figures in depth, but I am guessing 1 million +  for a decent game, many times more for a really state of the art effort. Whatever the precise figures, this obviously needs high revenues to generate a good return on investment.

 

But the target demographic cannot pay a very high price (to put another way, most college age lads cannot afford a golf club membership) so the game has to target high volume at a lower price. This means satisfying the requirements of multiple smaller subsegments which is difficult to do and will probably add more costs anyway.

 

Possible solutions?

 

1) Build an open architecture and let the internet fill it in. A sort of Minecraft in the air?

 

2) Find a sugar daddy?

Edited June 12, 2015 by unreasonable

[BraveSirRobin]

3) get tired of the complaining by people who have no grasp of how unrealistic their demands are and work on something that will put food on the table

[unreasonable]

 

Not all of us speak like that. The swearing is obviously added in for effect. Saying that though we can eff and blind with the best of them.   

 

 

 

Grammar school perhaps? Judging from my short experience observing the working class male as an infantry officer, the effing is entirely natural  and unforced, required before every third or forth word. My sample were Essex lads, however, whereas the video makers sound like Geordies or some such northern species. Perhaps they do not swear so much in the north.

 

Then again, my observations are now 30 odd years out of date, so it is possible that New Brit Lad only swears because he knows it teases.

 

Someone should get this lot to review BoS. The review might well be more entertaining than the game.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Grammar school perhaps? Judging from my short experience observing the working class male as an infantry officer, the effing is entirely natural  and unforced, required before every third or forth word. My sample were Essex lads, however, whereas the video makers sound like Geordies or some such northern species. Perhaps they do not swear so much in the north.

 

Then again, my observations are now 30 odd years out of date, so it is possible that New Brit Lad only swears because he knows it teases.

 

Someone should get this lot to review BoS. The review might well be more entertaining than the game.

 

I do talk like that 

 

I've tried telling people I have tourettes but no one will buy it

[Sokol1]

So the thing need became a good "flight combat game". Leaving the 'dinosaurs' unrealistic demands aside, the game part in this combat flight need work/changes to became a good game. 

[FuriousMeow]

Talk of the Il-2 template. You know what the Il-2 template was? The same as BoS. GUI, Maps, Planes. Go back to the first Il-2. That's all it was with poor MP and scripted SP. The SP that everyone adores and loves in Il-2 wasn't by the devs, it was by Starshoy.

 

The Il-2 template doesn't exist, it just allowed someone to develop a campaign generator for it. It allowed users to create skins and add them in. That was it. We have the capability to build and add a campaign generator but no one is doing it. So if you want to use Il-2 as the template then realize what that means, we have the planes - and more coming, some maps with more coming, and the GUI plus much better MP than Il-2 started off with - it took years before dedicated server. Just need to build the campaign generator just like what happened with the Il-2 series. The MP capabilities are already far beyond the original Il-2, lots of stuff going on with the servers and when joining European time zones lots going on.

 

The disparity is the  Americas time zone. That is under-performing in numbers with regards to MP which is most likely due to no American/British aircraft unfortunately.

 

There's also the problem of demand. Everything must happen now, and if it isn't then clearly it sucks and etc. No patience to wait for the game to come together. It took 7 years, plus years of development prior to release, for the Il-2 series to be what it is. Can't even give BoS a chance to get to it's first add-on without declaring it's a failure. I remember the first few years of the original Il-2, way too many people have rose colored glasses because it was not that great for a long while it just had nothing else to be compared to.

Edited June 12, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[sallee]

Grammar school perhaps? Judging from my short experience observing the working class male as an infantry officer, the effing is entirely natural  and unforced, required before every third or forth word. My sample were Essex lads, however, whereas the video makers sound like Geordies or some such northern species. Perhaps they do not swear so much in the north.

 

Then again, my observations are now 30 odd years out of date, so it is possible that New Brit Lad only swears because he knows it teases.

 

Someone should get this lot to review BoS. The review might well be more entertaining than the game.

Geordies swear even more. It's just difficult to distinguish the swearing from everything else which is assaulting your ears.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Talk of the Il-2 template. You know what the Il-2 template was? The same as BoS. GUI, Maps, Planes. Go back to the first Il-2. That's all it was with poor MP and scripted SP. The SP that everyone adores and loves in Il-2 wasn't by the devs, it was by Starshoy.

 

The Il-2 template doesn't exist, it just allowed someone to develop a campaign generator for it. It allowed users to create skins and add them in. That was it. We have the capability to build and add a campaign generator but no one is doing it. So if you want to use Il-2 as the template then realize what that means, we have the planes - and more coming, some maps with more coming, and the GUI plus much better MP than Il-2 started off with - it took years before dedicated server. Just need to build the campaign generator just like what happened with the Il-2 series. The MP capabilities are already far beyond the original Il-2, lots of stuff going on with the servers and when joining European time zones lots going on.

 

The disparity is the  Americas time zone. That is under-performing in numbers with regards to MP which is most likely due to no American/British aircraft unfortunately.

 

There's also the problem of demand. Everything must happen now, and if it isn't then clearly it sucks and etc. No patience to wait for the game to come together. It took 7 years, plus years of development prior to release, for the Il-2 series to be what it is. Can't even give BoS a chance to get to it's first add-on without declaring it's a failure. I remember the first few years of the original Il-2, way too many people have rose colored glasses because it was not that great for a long while it just had nothing else to be compared to.

 

Yep I was around for the early days of IL2 as well and the exact same complaints were going around especially regarding terrible co-ops and lifeless/empty worlds....

 

Regarding co-op and online DBS ran another co-op and there were empty slots so I don't know what to say to people moaning about HL and co-ops yet when someone takes the time to run them no one joins.

[Rolling_Thunder]

The DCS kickstarter proved that there are people willing to buy in if the developer is willing to give away the game practically for free.  Unfortunately, when the developer gives the game away they don't stay in business for long, which is also proved by the DCS kickstarter.

 

It raised 158k didn't it? I can't see how that is enough to develop an entire game.

  

It wasn't even enough to finance the kickstarter rewards.

  

3) get tired of the complaining by people who have no grasp of how unrealistic their demands are and work on something that will put food on the table

Talk about missing the point.

My point was there is a market, 2,000 people pledged, how many bought bos? How many folk are registered here and on other flight sim forums? The market is there.

You want to throw money at a developer in the hope it keeps the genre alive no matter how hollow the gameplay, just because it has shiney ww2 aircraft. What happens when the developer decides he has made enough money and decides to call it quits? What are you left with?

If you want to throw your money at hope buy a lottery ticket, some of those lottery funded projects are good causes

[BraveSirRobin]

 My point was there is a market, 2,000 people pledged, how many bought bos? How many folk are registered here and on other flight sim forums? The market is there.

 

There certainly aren't any software developers that think there is a market.

[Rolling_Thunder]

There certainly aren't any software developers that think there is a market.

So 777 and all the others are releasing these games for the love of the genre? Seriously you really believe that? bos was made to make money because they know there is a market. they are all made to make money. Nobody is going to make a game for a non existent market.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

So 777 and all the others are releasing these games for the love of the genre? Seriously you really believe that? bos was made to make money because they know there is a market. they are all made to make money. Nobody is going to make a game for a non existent market.

 

What is it you want to do in this game?

[BraveSirRobin]

So 777 and all the others are releasing these games for the love of the genre? Seriously you really believe that? bos was made to make money because they know there is a market. they are all made to make money. Nobody is going to make a game for a non existent market.

 

What games are you talking about?  There is BoS/BoM and what else?  Nothing.  This is it.  Do you know of any other historical combat flight sims being developed?  I supposed DCS WW2 could theoretically be that game some day.  But right now there is nothing.

[Rolling_Thunder]

What is it you want to do in this game?

 

A single player campaign that's immersive

 

 

What games are you talking about?  There is BoS/BoM and what else?  Nothing.  This is it.  Do you know of any other historical combat flight sims being developed?  I supposed DCS WW2 could theoretically be that game some day.  But right now there is nothing.

You are one angry individual.

I was not talking about games. I was talking about a market. You have gotten so freaking defensive of this game your post is a rant . You need to relax dude.

I'm done here, this forum has become a paranoid mess.

[BraveSirRobin]

I was not talking about games. I was talking about a market. You have gotten so freaking defensive of this game your post is a rant . You need to relax dude.

 

Sparky, the number of games being developed is indicative of the size of the market.  People don't develop games unless there is a market.  NO ONE is developing historical flight sims.  That means there is probably no market.  That is why I get defensive when people start trashing the ONLY people who are trying to develop a game for us.  They're taking a very big risk, and many in the "community" treat them with no respect at all.  Basically, this "community" sucks.

[johncage]

the point of taking the risk is to make something different, not to do the same thing and fall into the same pitfalls. that's why people are frustrated and annoyed. that's why the community "sucks", because sim players naturally have high standards. witness above. someone saying gta and witcher 3 are for idiots. you want to please them with half assed content?

 

that's the reality of catering to this market. you either can deal with the strident criticism and get over it, and find success in spite of the vitriol, or you sink back into the muck and develop games for profit, in which case, why bother with a dying market, go make the next war thunder.

 

what i'm saying is, flight sim development isn't for everyone. i'd rather the devs be really into it and motivated, or not do it at all. don't suffer for no reason.

Edited June 13, 2015 by johncage

[johncage]

In this case they are definitely hacking.  No doubt about it.  Whether or not you think it is justified is a completely different argument.

 

modding multiplayer requires both parties to have the mod installed. hacking is the synonym of cheating in a multiplayer game, and it occurs when one player has introduced unfair advantages or disadvantages on unsuspecting players.

 

in the above case of team fusion, the requirement is that all of them have the mod installed to play together, so that is called modding. words have definitions. learn them.

[BraveSirRobin]

the point of taking the risk is to make something different, not to do the same thing and fall into the same pitfalls. 

 

LOL  That is exactly the opposite of what the most vocal complainers want.  They don't want something different.  They want IL2, just better, and ignore the fact that the original IL2 wasn't really the IL2 they like to pretend that it was.

modding multiplayer requires both parties to have the mod installed. hacking is the synonym of cheating in a multiplayer game, and it occurs when one player has introduced unfair advantages or disadvantages on unsuspecting players.

 

in the above case of team fusion, the requirement is that all of them have the mod installed to play together, so that is called modding. words have definitions. learn them.

 

I know the definitions of the words.  They're hacking the game.  Hacking has nothing to do with getting an advantage.  It simply means that they're making unauthorized changes to the game.  1C has just decided to look the other way.

[johncage]

in the context of current market trends, doing il2 IS doing something different.

 

regarding hacking, again, there are long established definitions differentiating hacking and modding. you cannot just make up definitions and criteria based on your personal views. if hacking means unauthorized changes to the game, then modding=hacking. see the problem?

 

99 percent of games that are modded out there do not have prescribed developer authorization or support.

Edited June 13, 2015 by johncage

[BraveSirRobin]

 then modding=hacking. see the problem?

 

No, I don't see the problem.  Modding is definitely hacking.  It only becomes a problem when you start "modding" things that you're not supposed to mod, which is exactly what TF is doing.  But, like I said before, 1C has decided to look the other way.

 

In any case, it doesn't really matter if you call it modding or hacking, they don't have the source code, so they're not really doing development.

 

in the context of current market trends, doing il2 IS doing something different.

 

I guess the market doesn't really want IL2 then, does it?  Or maybe there is an open market for all the people who are complaining about BoS to exploit.  I think the operative phrase is "Put up or shut up."

[Cybermat47]

No, I don't see the problem.  Modding is definitely hacking.  It only becomes a problem when you start "modding" things that you're not supposed to mod, which is exactly what TF is doing.  But, like I said before, 1C has decided to look the other way.

 

In any case, it doesn't really matter if you call it modding or hacking, they don't have the source code, so they're not really doing development.

 

Hacking implies that there's malicous intent.

 

And are you saying that adding new planes and maps isn't development because the source code isn't being used?

[BraveSirRobin]

Hacking implies that there's malicous intent.

 

No,it doesn't. It just means that you're making unauthorized changes.

And are you saying that adding new planes and maps isn't development because the source code isn't being used

Correct. Edited June 13, 2015 by BraveSirRobin

[[KWN]T-oddball]

 In a nutshell both the COD and BOS  team have poisoned the well with very bad decisions.

 

Sometimes I wonder.. but yeah.. the fun aspect needs to be a high priority.. but then you have situations where what the developers may think is fun may not be fun to a large part of the community. 

 

 

I think partly it is.. I seriously believe that any developer who does not use IL2  and what it does as a template for what works across the board and builds from there is asking for trouble.. and I have been saying that from day one... Even on the Gaijin forums during the WoP days..

 

 

 

one word, scalability! this is what the original IL2 possessed, settings for the wonder women pilot up to full max difficulty for those who wanted more and both party's existed in the same environment, hyperloby, given each other shit on a daily basis

 

 

CLoD was built with a brand new engine, it was always going to cost money and time. a big risk.
BoS was built around an existing engine aimed at the ww2 crowd. Not much of a risk. The EA proved a lot of folk were interested, the dcs kickstarter proves there is still a demand for the genre.
I have no problem sitting at my desk with all the peripherals if the game is engaging. BOS is not engaging.
There is a demand for the genre. We've got to ask ourselves why the current crop of cfs are not engaging the customers. We may be dinosaurs but it's still the Jurassic era.

 

the argument of BOS vs the original IL2 is illogical because as stated above  IL2 was new BOS is not. If the devs are true flight sim fans than they have been aware for years what the components of IL2 are that made it successful....but for some reason chose to ignore them just like the COD team did.....not a good idea on either teams part.

 

Regarding co-op and online DBS ran another co-op and there were empty slots so I don't know what to say to people moaning about HL and co-ops yet when someone takes the time to run them no one joins.

 

DBS? ...I don't think you truly understand....you can announce CO-OPs till you are blue in the face...or you can realize most people don't come to the forums or they don't come very often and unless you have the e-mails of EVERY one who purchased the game and are actively keeping track of who is hosting what  and when then there is an very painful and obvious need for that which has already proven to work....HYPERLOBBY!

 

 

[Chuck_Owl]

Personally I'll fly any sim if I enjoy flying with the people who fly it. The community makes the sim just as much as the sim makes the community.

 

This is why I keep coming back to CloD and DCS: there are plenty of folks flying it whose company I enjoy very much.

[Feathered_IV]

Personally I'll fly any sim if I enjoy flying with the people who fly it. The community makes the sim just as much as the sim makes the community.

 

This is why I keep coming back to CloD and DCS: there are plenty of folks flying it whose company I enjoy very much.

 

I'm like that with this community.  Even though I am not playing BoS, I still find myself taking part in the forum every day because I like the people so much.  I don't do that with any other title.

[voncrapenhauser]

This has been my passion since Commoder 64.....

 

Ahh...... Those were the days 30 mins for a game to load from a cassette only for crash 3 seconds before booting mmmmmmm.

Anyone remember the original wing commander?

 

The cassette version?

 

Now I'm showing my age

 

Btw I am a Dinosaur lol.

Edited June 17, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

[Guest deleted@30725]

Il2 is a weird one. It's not quite study sim like DCS, but neither is it pretending to be anything than an fps shooter like War Thunder. This game has been plagued by obscure design decisions that have pushed many people from playing and it kinda sits in that middle ground. I play DCS mainly now because I can 'touch' and press all the switches of the plane modeled in virtual space. I'm 100% flying the virtual plane. It's all me as close as I can get to a million dollar plane and being 6ft 8, I imagine I'd struggle to even fit in the real ones. It's the interaction with the virtual plane I love. I can read a flight manual and then follow it similar to a real pilot. Why do I want to fly flight sim? Because I want to the experience of real plane in flight sim and the pit is where I want to be and feel part of the virtual machine. BOS is OK. You learn flying, but press keyboard buttons to make things happen. It pulls me out of immersion. I can't click starter or turn the engine heater knob with mouse click that because I am holding mouse it acts like hand so I am 'touching' this switch. BOS is all about the flying and it flies so nice. For me I love my clickable pit. It's part of the game to learn to start and get it set up. Gun play is the other half and i love the gun play too, but sometimes all I want to do is start plane by myself and do flight drills because flying is the fun bit. DCS has the clickable 109. BOS has equally fun 109s. The clickable aspect of DCS pulls me back every time and the helicopters. I do love the huey. There is much to like about BOS and I have enjoyed flying and learning about the russian planes and this is what I fly in BOS. But it has been many months since I played and I like the community and the devs, the game is not for me. DCS will have a spitfire in the future which adds to the 'I want to fly' list of planes. At duxford this year I will join many other people who like seeing ww2 planes fly, but life is busy. Not everyone has time to learn complex flight sims with many other hobbies and social things to do. I have only time for one flight sim and I perfect my skills in DCS which is funny because without BOS I would never have gone to and realized I loved the study sim of DCS. I gave my money to support the game, I don't feel bad for not playing and I hope it continues to be good for the people that find DCS too nerdy. Not everyone wants a study sim. DCS sold me too because the game is free and you get to see normal non clickable plane and free mustang with no guns with clickable pit. You don't loose anything by trying and if you do like it each plane, though expensive is a game to itself. Many, many hours to master each one and the lineup is becoming so amazing.

Edited June 17, 2015 by deleted@30725