Are flight-Simmers goin to end up like Dinosaurs ?

[BraveSirRobin]

Warthunder does what it does well, i.e: Air quake that any 10 year old can pick up and go straight in to blow stuff up, instant gratification that youngsters require these days.

 

Most, if not all that download WT already knew that it's an online MP air quake game that you can just jump straight in and have a blast with no experience or effort required, not a SP oriented game at all.

 

I would have thought with your experience with this genre that you would have understood why a SP campaign would be beneficial to this type of game.

 

I understand the things that I can see actually happening, not the things that many people assume are true.  The idea that a SP campaign would be beneficial is an assumption based on what the people making the assumption would like to believe is true.  That doesn't mean that it's actually true.  

 

 

Since it is evidently plain to see that most BoS owners do not play MP, I can only surmise that the biggest number of BoS owners bought the game to play offline, with a decent single player campaign. 

 

Or not, since a campaign is not the only way to play SP.  I have never spent a single minute playing a single player campaign prior to BoS.

 

In short, a decent SP campaign is sorely needed to inject some excitement and purpose into this game, because as it stands just now with no decent SP campaign I cannot see this game flourishing, which TBH is a real shame.

 

Not for me.  And considering how popular WT is, not for lots of other people, either.

[Finkeren]

It seems to be an accepted fact that a successful combat sim must have a good SP campaign.

Correction: It is an accepted 'fact' (not really the right word) that a succesful historic combat sim must have a good SP campaign.

 

In any sim the greatest immersion will almost always come from the SP part of the game. Immersion is essential for a proper reenactment of history. It's much less important in a more competition-oriented MP situation, which offers the extra challenge and variety of human opponents in return.

[sallee]

I have spent many minutes plying SP in other sims and liked it very much and avoided MP.

I think I would play BoS far more if it had a better SP experience. I must be reeaaaaally weird.

[BraveSirRobin]

Correction: It is an accepted 'fact' (not really the right word) that a succesful historic combat sim must have a good SP campaign.

 

In any sim the greatest immersion will almost always come from the SP part of the game. Immersion is essential for a proper reenactment of history. It's much less important in a more competition-oriented MP situation, which offers the extra challenge and variety of human opponents in return.

 

I find that the SP part of the game provides no immersion whatsoever, actually.  I find the immersion in playing MP.

 

In any case, War Thunder is very popular, while lots of SP campaign guys are constantly badmouthing this game.  Do the SP campaign guys have a backup plan if this game fails?  They're certainly not the target audience for any new game developers.

[3instein]

  Do the SP campaign guys have a backup plan if this game fails?  They're certainly not the target audience for any new game developers.

Yeah, can't understand why the Witcher 3 has sold over 4 million copies in just 2 weeks, SP not the target for any game developers?  

 

Mick. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Warthunder does what it does well, i.e: Air quake that any 10 year old can pick up and go straight in to blow stuff up, instant gratification that youngsters require these days.

 

Most, if not all that download WT already knew that it's an online MP air quake game that you can just jump straight in and have a blast with no experience or effort required, not a SP oriented game at all.

 

I would have thought with your experience with this genre that you would have understood why a SP campaign would be beneficial to this type of game.

 

Judging by the MP statistics and numerous posts here and elsewhere, BoS has unfortunately failed at grabbing the WT crowd, or if they weren't going after the WT generation something is severely wrong with the game that has obviously failed in it's bid to generate any decent MP numbers, what that is I am not sure as I very rarely play MP.  

 

Since it is evidently plain to see that most BoS owners do not play MP, I can only surmise that the biggest number of BoS owners bought the game to play offline, with a decent single player campaign. 

 

If you remember correctly, during early access the vision for this game was stated by the devs to be mainly aimed at SP and was to be built around a "robust" SP campaign, this in my opinion has failed to materialise.

 

In short, a decent SP campaign is sorely needed to inject some excitement and purpose into this game, because as it stands just now with no decent SP campaign I cannot see this game flourishing, which TBH is a real shame.

 

Mick.

 

Question

 

Do you want dweeeb mode or a flight sim?

 

There are more COD players than ARMA but do we want the latter to dumb down the game to be more acceptable for a bunch of idiotic kids?

Yeah, can't understand why the Witcher 3 has sold over 4 million copies in just 2 weeks, SP not the target for any game developers?  

 

Mick. 

 

 

The Witcher 3....yes it is proof that stupid people buy stupid games and there are more stupid people in the world than those with a few brain cells....what can I say? GTA-5 was the same.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIeEZeKN8JE

Edited June 10, 2015 by JG5_Emil

[Bearcat]

 

I'm pretty sure that War Thunder does not follow the IL2 template in any way, never mind "across the board", and that game is very popular.

 

if it did it would have not only the current WT crowd but this crowd too.. that was my point. IL2 was as successful as it was because it could be most things to most simmers.. even if they didn't yet know it like the guys that took years to come to IL2 because they were involved in another sim community other than IL2.. That is what I mean by that statement of mine you quoted. I am talking from a flight sim perspective only.

 

I'm not saying that it should, I'm just saying that WT is very popular.  That would appear to contradict what many of the "experts" in here think is necessary for a popular flight sim.

 

Well you can't mean me because I am certainly no expert.. the other thing that WT does very well that makes it problematic when using it's numbers in comparison to any other dedicated CFS is that it offers other things than just a flight sim.. You can do the ground forces too and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was a FPS element introduced into it as well at some point  (I don't know is there one already?) but that is not BoS is.. BoS is a WWII CFS. Period. In my opinion for any WWII sim to be a true successor to the IL2 name it needs to be able to do most of what IL2 did better.. I don't know if tis engine is capable of that or not.. I have a certain amount of faith in the devs who know more than I do about what can be accomplished with it.. since because they chose it.. but there is no doubt that there are bumps alonmg the way.. I think they are bumps.. not mountains.. some folks think they are mountains.. That's all I am saying.

[BraveSirRobin]

Yeah, can't understand why the Witcher 3 has sold over 4 million copies in just 2 weeks, SP not the target for any game developers?  

 

Mick. 

 

That example would have a little more validity if Witcher was a flight sim.

if it did it would have not only the current WT crowd but this crowd too.. 

 

It doesn't need this crowd.  And considering the way this crowd acts, it probably doesn't want this crowd.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

The point is that it never was easy to make people playing wt turn into more "hardcore". If you think of 50-80 000 players than you are not really understanding the WT. You have to keep in mind that in this numbers there is a large fraction of players who only play tanks. Than you also have to divide the population by 3, as there are 3 modes. 

And from my own experience as well as observation through the past 3 years, only a small % of arcade players turned into realistic battles and even smaller tried the simulation. 

 

The whole point in Wt as in WoT is that its simple, accessible by random players without joysticks, throttles and all that fancy stuff some of simmers spend hundreds of $ on. Just a mouse and keyboard, same as for Call of Duty or any other game. Those are certainly not the people who would come to the Il-2 and try to fly like we fly.

To get some % of them is possible, but it still is going to be a small number.

 

 

The Witcher 3....yes it is proof that stupid people buy stupid games and there are more stupid people in the world than those with a few brain cells....what can I say? GTA-5 was the same.

 

 With all due respect, but who are you to decide which games are stupid and which are not ? And to tell that certain people are stupid and other are not. People are different and have different taste and expectations. 

There are rpg fans who like Witcher 3 ? Fine, good for them that there is company that can satisfy their desires. But why does that make them stupid ? And why Witcher 3 is stupid game ? 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 With all due respect, but who are you to decide which games are stupid and which are not ? And to tell that certain people are stupid and other are not. People are different and have different taste and expectations. 

There are rpg fans who like Witcher 3 ? Fine, good for them that there is company that can satisfy their desires. But why does that make them stupid ? And why Witcher 3 is stupid game ? 

 

I'm not saying games are stupid I'm saying MOST people are stupid

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'm not saying games are stupid I'm saying MOST people are stupid

Except than you post a video ...

But ok, lets skip it. The thing I could actually point here, as for the Witcher symbolizing the Single Player rpg ... that there are mmo rpg's which achieved a far greater success than any single player would, not to mention they are played far longer (for example World of Warcraft or Star Wars The Old Republic). 

 

Good single player is nice but from my (subjective) perspective what gives the long life to the product (and can be more beneficial) is a good multiplayer. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Except than you post a video ...

But ok, lets skip it. The thing I could actually point here, as for the Witcher symbolizing the Single Player rpg ... that there are mmo rpg's which achieved a far greater success than any single player would, not to mention they are played far longer (for example World of Warcraft or Star Wars The Old Republic). 

 

Good single player is nice but from my (subjective) perspective what gives the long life to the product (and can be more beneficial) is a good multiplayer. 

 

yeh I posted a video to make my point..what's you're point?

Again.....I'm saying MOST people in the world are stupid so devs make games for morons.

 

What is wrong with that?

[Cybermat47]

It seems to be an accepted fact that a successful combat sim must have a good SP campaign. What does the War Thunder SP campaign look like?

It's pretty good. It takes you from Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal, as either the USNAF or IJNAF. The footage of pre-WWI Japanese conquests is fascinating. The mission where you strafe IJA troops is unlike anything I've played in a flight sim before - actually seeing soldiers running around the place and shooting at you is awesome!

Edited June 11, 2015 by Cybermat47

[unreasonable]

Except than you post a video ...

But ok, lets skip it. The thing I could actually point here, as for the Witcher symbolizing the Single Player rpg ... that there are mmo rpg's which achieved a far greater success than any single player would, not to mention they are played far longer (for example World of Warcraft or Star Wars The Old Republic). 

 

Good single player is nice but from my (subjective) perspective what gives the long life to the product (and can be more beneficial) is a good multiplayer. 

 

Both types - SP and MP - can clearly generate games that are commercially successful. The Sims, The Elder Scrolls series etc were massive sellers in the same ballpark, depending on what you count as a specific game.  Which you prefer is up to you - clearly they give different rewards.

 

On the other hand, I am struggling to think of any game that could really count as a success in both SP and MP: apart from IL2 classic/46 that is. MP games often have a little SP element but simply designed as a tutorial.

 

Some of the needs of the two genres are shared, graphics being the most obvious, but much else is different, and sometimes in direct conflict. MP players usually want tight control because they know that any openness will be abused by cheats. SP players want first of all feeling of immersion in a story, whether driven by an explicit plot or generated through the player's imagination, and then they look for an openness that gives them the freedom to explore new scenarios, graphics or even changes to core mechanics. What starts as a dramatic game becomes a toy.

 

BoS has tried to appeal to both but seems to be missing the mark in both markets. What needs to be done to improve MP numbers I neither know nor care, but the failure on the SP side is clear.

 

If the developers had wanted to ditch the SP players all they needed to have done was said so. I would not have bothered to buy the game or visit the forums and BSR would be free to play his game and read the forums without having to read the comments of people whose tastes are other than his. But they did not. They claimed, and AFAIK continue to claim, that BoS is an immersive SP experience. Well it is not immersing me, and judging from the level of BOM presales many others feel the same way.

 

It is not just that 1CGS did not include any historic RP elements in the release version - not even the ones they said they would include in the DD - but they are also making it as hard as possible for anyone to put them back in. No mods on - another change from earlier claims. No way of stringing user made missions together into a campaign in the GUI. No compromise on even simple changes, eg being able to reset your SP experience to zero.

 

Instead we have Jason saying of his plan to find a 3rd party application programmer; "I am all you have got". With all due respect to Jason, and I am indeed grateful for his rescue of RoF, this is not encouraging.

 

And yet we have BSR saying the problem is not the developers, Finkeren saying we should adapt to the product if we do not want to see the developers fail (poor things), and Bearcat saying keep throwing money at it because they might change their attitude!

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I have trouble understanding why so many folks refer to WT as a flight sim. There is no doubt it is a very successful "instant gratification" fix of a game but sim? Hell no!

 

There was a post on the forums recently where a chap who had moved over from WT asked "How do I fly my plane?"  That about sums it up for me with regards WT.

 

With regards BoS and WWII flight sims in general, The glory days are gone and it seems as though they are going to live or die at the hands of our niche community and what a disjointed bunch we can be at times. 

 

I see many posts berating BoS that this or that feature needs to be added or sort out the flaps and " I won't buy BoM until this is sorted." I am not happy with a fair few aspects of BoS, but I will try to continue to support the development of this sim because without the financial support it's long term future is probably doubtful.

 

We really don't have a lot of choice when it comes to WWII flight sims and I for one don't want to be just left with a popular game where the youngsters think its "leet"  to crash into you while flying with a mouse.

[Blooddawn1942]

I doubt that anyone who is flying WT in simulation mode is using a mouse to steer his AC

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I doubt that anyone who is flying WT in simulation mode is using a mouse to steer his AC

There are actually some who fly like this, there is a control mode called mouse-joystick or something like that. Not great but its possible to fly like that in WT. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I doubt that anyone who is flying WT in simulation mode is using a mouse to steer his AC

I tend to agree but less people"fly" in simulator mode on WT than on BoS.

[jaydee]

I wonder what a poll on average age showed back in 2002....I'm not sure the community is so much older although I think the Il2 success brought in a lot of people who weren't hardcore simmers. I suspect the number of hardcore simmers are the same but we're now spread out over 5 or more sims.

There have been some  great responses to my thread. Thank you guys.

But,I think Emil hit it on the head with this one.

Lets take BOS as an example : BOS  Forums are full of  Pilots that only want Online content ! Others only want SP content.... Another Division !

Then you have the Pilots that don't like certain other pilots(so they will jump at everything their "Enemies" say) !....Another division !

Then you have Pilots that want to" Proclaim" how  another sim is "Better" than BOS... Another division again !

I have All of them on my ssd. I " float" from one to another depending on content, my mood and my available time to PLAY !

I love them all in one way or another !

I posted this thread in the hope getting some discussion going about the future of  Flight simming !

I hope some people can honour this thread and first off, stop the Petty bickering with each other !

And discuss where we are going to be in 5 years (us flight simmers). Will there be a Dev left (crazy and talented enough) to produce a  "Game" for us lot ?

I could have been flying in the time used to type this !

~S~ to all

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Except than you post a video ...

But ok, lets skip it. The thing I could actually point here, as for the Witcher symbolizing the Single Player rpg ... that there are mmo rpg's which achieved a far greater success than any single player would, not to mention they are played far longer (for example World of Warcraft or Star Wars The Old Republic). 

 

Good single player is nice but from my (subjective) perspective what gives the long life to the product (and can be more beneficial) is a good multiplayer. 

 

The reason I posted the video was (if you had watched it) that the guy thinks the controller system is terrible and yet people are happy to ignore such things and the game gets 9/10.

 

Moving on from that a lot of gaming has gone the same way as Hollywood high cost production dumbed down to attract the masses. Well thought out, intelligent or hard games (like flight sims) don't attract people like they used to do (or they don't get the media exposure so people hear about them) and now most games that come out are not particularly good in my opinion. I did actually buy GTA and after the initial wow factor of the graphics I got bored very fast and binned it and after spending 40 or 50 quid it's now uninstalled when you look at flight sims you get so much more value for money and the game is far more challenging but I suspect that is what puts people off.

 

Aside from my flight sims I can count the number of what I consider good games I've bought on the fingers of one hand.

[Bearcat]

I wonder what a poll on average age showed back in 2002....I'm not sure the community is so much older although I think the Il2 success brought in a lot of people who weren't hardcore simmers. I suspect the number of hardcore simmers are the same but we're now spread out over 5 or more sims.

 

True... I can't speak for 2002.. but  2004 @ UBI

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Sorry for my earlier grumpiness 

 

I just find gaming becoming frustratingly dumbed down and it just seems to get worse and worse. I saw one game where everything you needed to pick up was flashing...don't people want any kind of challenge anymore? It drives me nuts. The high cost games look amazing but I'm sick of parting with my cash to find out they've got no depth and are easy. 

 

Also I think part of IL2's original success is partly due to the viral nature of games/videos or anything else in the PC world. As it got a reputation for being fun and challenging it suddenly became hot and a must have game and it probably brought loads of non flight simmers in. If IL2 had never happened and it was released today with better graphics I don't know if it would still have done so amazingly well in todays gaming world...my feeling is that it wouldn't.

[BraveSirRobin]

And yet we have BSR saying the problem is not the developers, Finkeren saying we should adapt to the product if we do not want to see the developers fail (poor things), and Bearcat saying keep throwing money at it because they might change their attitude!

 

Those aren't your only options.  You could play the SP campaign in that other historical WW2 flight sim being developed...  Oh, right, there aren't any.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

do you realize wwii and vietnam doesnt appeal to the new generations?

 

now its all about gta 

 

do you know any kid who makes plane or tank models?

 

You have a point but I still think there is always a percentage of young guys who love planes and want to fly but to get a PC and controllers to do flight simming is not cheap. I do know some kids who build model planes  

[Sokol1]

True... I can't speak for 2002.. but  2004 @ UBI

 

Comparing with ATAG pool - is SAS forum you see more younger, but dont find there age pool.

 

 

In ~2003/4 our il-2 squad have 40+ players, basically MP players, 2 or 3 under 20 age.

Today 3/4 have CloD and BoS (and rarely play in both). One guy still in 1946 SP (involved with MOD)... 

 

These last "Mohicans" are aged, and ones that like the WWII history.

 

Most leave il-2 because discovery that dont have skill to became a "virtual ace", dont want update computer to "play games" (instead buy notebooks) or feed their games need with "fast food FPS" - CS, CoD, BF, TF... Dont know if one adopt War Thunder. 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

 

 

The reason I posted the video was (if you had watched it) that the guy thinks the controller system is terrible and yet people are happy to ignore such things and the game gets 9/10.

Yes I watched and heard a person who has a problem with using any other words than f..k, s..t, etc. Unfortunately his review is kind of limited but also game was not what he expected it to be, because as you can read in comments he expected something like Mount and Blade or Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. Witcher was not supposed to be like that ... so he can be only disappointing because he did not know what he was buying. 

 

People might simply not put so much emphasis on combat while you have a huge world, great fable, many many hours of gameplay, multiple minigames, couple of easter eggs and on the top of that a good graphics and music. Yes, game can be lacking in combat, but if someone remembers many other rpg's than combat was way more primitive and yet nobody complained. I hardly know anyone complaining on repetitive combat in sW Kotor, because it was not the main point of the game.

 

 

Moving on from that a lot of gaming has gone the same way as Hollywood high cost production dumbed down to attract the masses. Well thought out, intelligent or hard games (like flight sims) don't attract people like they used to do (or they don't get the media exposure so people hear about them) and now most games that come out are not particularly good in my opinion. I did actually buy GTA and after the initial wow factor of the graphics I got bored very fast and binned it and after spending 40 or 50 quid it's now uninstalled when you look at flight sims you get so much more value for money and the game is far more challenging but I suspect that is what puts people off.

 

Aside from my flight sims I can count the number of what I consider good games I've bought on the fingers of one hand.

That is unfortunately correct. And for that can be blamed mostly consoles due to the simplification of movement and engine limits. Even new generations of consoles are barely keeping with PC's in performance. Other thing is that consoles cant be used to play strategies or even hardly rts can be made for such environment. 

 

In last couple of years there were only few titles that impressed me and caught my attention because of good fable and emotions they managed to create in me, for example that could be LA Noire.

 

About putting people off, it might be my observation only but more and more I see teenagers expecting easy victories and advantages handed to them. Where is the spirit of becoming better ? Hard work put into developing a skill is this days something you rarely will find.

 

 

 

do you know any kid who makes plane or tank models?

Yes I do, I know quite a few of them in fact. Some work on plastic kits, others make the models from wood. There is also a group of guys who work on RC models.  

 

 

Sokol, so I'm kind of an exception here seems so ... I'm not even 25 and love simulations, flying and learning more. 

[Sorbifer]

Well, I have tried long time ago WT and I would say that their 'events' in simulation mode, when you can attack tanks with real players inside, it is quite unique and surprisingly enjoyable. It is difficult to find enemies, they try to avoid your attack, and some AAA are manned and aiming at you A lot of adrenaline. See that land/see forces AI is also not so bad as they try to avoid attack also in a quite nice way. Definitely something that other combat flight simulators' developers should study trying to adopt their product to work in similar way - but preferably without micro-payments, ladders, achievements etc. but with all this hard core sim stuff you/us all know and want - that's why we bought that game

 

 

 

 

PS: I miss old Il2 times with tons of people online. Last few years is a massive players' lost on HL. Pity. But that's how it works.

 

PPS: I belong to that aged players. But there are older virtual pilots, many of. I remember 71 years old one - and it was few years ago. And about the age... Even if you do not like WT treat that game as a good investment. Some of those youngsters flying with mouse and keyboard one day might invest in joysticks, try it in WT, and then - why not - in other more hardcoded sims! :D

Edited June 11, 2015 by Sorbifer

[BraveSirRobin]

Well, I have tried long time ago WT and I would say that their 'events' in simulation mode, when you can attack tanks with real players inside, it is quite unique and surprisingly enjoyable. It is difficult to find enemies, they try to avoid your attack, and some AAA are manned and aiming at you A lot of adrenaline. See that land/see forces AI is also not so bad as they try to avoid attack also in a quite nice way. Definitely something that other combat flight simulators' developers should study trying to adopt their product to work in similar way - but preferably without micro-payments, ladders, achievements etc. but with all this hard core sim stuff you/us all know and want - that's why we bought that game

 

There is usually lots of complaining on the forum when someone suggests making the AAA guns and tanks usable for human players.

[Sorbifer]

Well I wrote that good challenging AI is also a nice option. Good to see a column of tanks, or ships, going everywhere like small bugs and trying again to form a column after your attack. But of course real players driving tanks is another level of difficulty. Difficulty and the satisfaction after a successful bomb run.

[Cybermat47]

Those aren't your only options. You could play the SP campaign in that other historical WW2 flight sim being developed... Oh, right, there aren't any.

And by "there aren't any", I take it you mean "that one with the multiple static campaigns and a customizable dynamic campaign, the large multiplayer community, and which is also being developed further".

 

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17073

Edited June 11, 2015 by Cybermat47

[BraveSirRobin]

And by "there aren't any", I take it you mean "that one with the multiple static campaigns and a customizable dynamic campaign, the large multiplayer community, and which is also being developed further".

 

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17073

 

That game does not have dev support.  It's being hacked.  Not even close to being the same.

[Cybermat47]

That game does not have dev support.  It's being hacked.  Not even close to being the same.

You consider modding to be hacking?

 

Seriously?

 

That's honestly the most ridiculous thing I've heard this year.

 

So what? Should me and the rest of Subsim have been content with the utter shambles that Silent Hunter 5 was when it was released? Should CloD players have been fine with that game being forced out by Ubisoft when the developers hadn't finished it?

 

I just can't see where you're coming from. Not at all.

[BraveSirRobin]

You consider modding to be hacking?

 

Seriously?

 

In this case they are definitely hacking.  No doubt about it.  Whether or not you think it is justified is a completely different argument.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I did actually buy GTA and after the initial wow factor of the graphics I got bored very fast and binned it and after spending 40 or 50 quid it's now uninstalled

That pretty much sums up my experience with bos. Unfortunately I purchased bom during the wow moment.

I fly wt from time to time, it's fun but it's also frustrating for various reasons.

Bos is frustrating for various reasons too, lack of players, lack of single player content the sterile environment unfortunately those things have a huge effect on the fun factor. It's boring, it's so duuuuuuuuull.

I can open my laptop on my sofa and play wt for an hour or so while my wife watches shite on tv. Bos I need to sit at my desk with all the peripherals, stick rudder etc etc for what... 5 minutes before I turn it off. It is incredibly unimmersive, is that a word? It's boring to me, judging by the numbers I'm not alone. Emil you can be a snob all you like about other games and other genres it doesn't change the fact that this game is a lot of effort, not to mention money, for a hollow experience.

[unreasonable]

The Witcher 3....yes it is proof that stupid people buy stupid games and there are more stupid people in the world than those with a few brain cells....what can I say? GTA-5 was the same.

 

 

 

Having just watched that video perhaps I will not be buying Witcher 3 after all...     Do not mind the effing and blinding - this is how working class people in Britain actually speak. Good find though, I had my doubts after reading the usual propaganda about the game, thanks for the link. 

 

 Personally I buy very few AAA type titles these days for exactly the reasons of which you complain: improved graphics have too often come at the expense of dumbed down game content to appeal to the console market or meet it's technology constraints.  The two types of game that still appeal to me are the indie games that limit or bypass the demands of graphics allowing developers to focus on gameplay elements, or AAA games that allow modders to fix the problems and make the experience on PC much better (eg Skyrim, let us hope Fallout 4 is not too wrecked).

 

I suppose players of CFS fall into two categories: those that will spend most of their game time playing whatever CFS they enjoy most from what is currently available, and those who will play whatever game, whether CFS or another genre, they happen to enjoy most at the time. 

 

If there is no CFS that I currently enjoy I am not going to buy or play one just because it is a CFS. There are still plenty of games out there that provide immersion and intellectual content, and also competition if that is what you want. (Just looks like Witcher 3 is not one of them after all .... ).

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

the large multiplayer community

Unfortunately, the numbers are virtually no different from the numbers flying BoS. It seems a large percentage of  "gamers"  today don't have much time for flight sims and want instant gratification.

 

 

 

 

You consider modding to be hacking?

 

I have no problem with modding with regards to improving graphics, audio etc, but I think if FM's are being messed with based on individual tastes it probably is.

 

 

 

It's boring, it's so duuuuuuuuull.

 

Sign up for a Co-op they are certainly not boring http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16719-friday-night-bomber-flights-mission-3/?do=findComment&comment=265343

 

 

Do not mind the effing and blinding - this is how working class people in Britain actually speak

Not all of us speak like that. The swearing is obviously added in for effect. Saying that though we can eff and blind with the best of them.   

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Having just watched that video perhaps I will not be buying Witcher 3 after all...     Do not mind the effing and blinding - this is how working class people in Britain actually speak. Good find though, I had my doubts after reading the usual propaganda about the game, thanks for the link. 

 

 Personally I buy very few AAA type titles these days for exactly the reasons of which you complain: improved graphics have too often come at the expense of dumbed down game content to appeal to the console market or meet it's technology constraints.  The two types of game that still appeal to me are the indie games that limit or bypass the demands of graphics allowing developers to focus on gameplay elements, or AAA games that allow modders to fix the problems and make the experience on PC much better (eg Skyrim, let us hope Fallout 4 is not too wrecked).

 

I suppose players of CFS fall into two categories: those that will spend most of their game time playing whatever CFS they enjoy most from what is currently available, and those who will play whatever game, whether CFS or another genre, they happen to enjoy most at the time. 

 

If there is no CFS that I currently enjoy I am not going to buy or play one just because it is a CFS. There are still plenty of games out there that provide immersion and intellectual content, and also competition if that is what you want. (Just looks like Witcher 3 is not one of them after all .... ).

 

Skyrim does sound like a game worth getting. I also loved Kerbal Space Program but the days of me throwing cash at games (and films) are pretty much over and I want to make sure it's worth getting first, I also can't understand the kickstarter and EA craze either, it's a great way to play on our imagination and people's expectations are unlikely to all be met (I'm thinking Star Citizen especially). For what it's worth I thought the Witcher review might have been a bit harsh as there are a lot of fans for the series as the reviewer found out ha ha....he had to do a further couple of videos to explain himself after being attacked but I agree with his point on controllers especially....I play games with a mouse and keyboard not an xbox controller and stick and throttle for sims.

 

If I had the time I would probably want to play some more Elite as I only tried it in EA, also I could pour hours and hours in to ARMA 3 and DCS is on my list to get around to one day. Triple A rated games I am treating with caution as they're clearly aimed at a market I am not a part of.  the youtubers were fawning over Alien: Isolation and you couldn't escape from the millions of fake and over down 'reaction' videos...I played it for about 25 hours and thought it was utter garbage maybe 20-25 hours play time is considered a success for a game? The story in GTA was pretty bad and linear but the world is amazing, maybe they'll release an expansion or something.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

That pretty much sums up my experience with bos. Unfortunately I purchased bom during the wow moment.

I fly wt from time to time, it's fun but it's also frustrating for various reasons.

Bos is frustrating for various reasons too, lack of players, lack of single player content the sterile environment unfortunately those things have a huge effect on the fun factor. It's boring, it's so duuuuuuuuull.

I can open my laptop on my sofa and play wt for an hour or so while my wife watches shite on tv. Bos I need to sit at my desk with all the peripherals, stick rudder etc etc for what... 5 minutes before I turn it off. It is incredibly unimmersive, is that a word? It's boring to me, judging by the numbers I'm not alone. Emil you can be a snob all you like about other games and other genres it doesn't change the fact that this game is a lot of effort, not to mention money, for a hollow experience.

 

I sit at my desk so I don't have to watch the crap my wife watches on TV :D Sims are a lot of effort and that is what makes them enjoyable for me we have to practice a lot to be good. I wish there was more content in BOS but I get the impression there just isnt enough money in sims for us to all get what we want, also in the back of my mind I imagine the bean counters at 1C were all over BOS like a rash to make sure it didn't end up as a huge money sink like CLOD and that the deadlines and budget were totally inflexible.

 

I don't think I'm being snobbish about other games (maybe a bit when people take about WT being a sim which I don't agree with) I just feel like a lot of them are becoming a cash cow and taking us PC gamers for granted. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

I sit at my desk so I don't have to watch the crap my wife watches on TV :D Sims are a lot of effort and that is what makes them enjoyable for me we have to practice a lot to be good. I wish there was more content in BOS but I get the impression there just isnt enough money in sims for us to all get what we want, also in the back of my mind I imagine the bean counters at 1C were all over BOS like a rash to make sure it didn't end up as a huge money sink like CLOD and that the deadlines and budget were totally inflexible.

 

I don't think I'm being snobbish about other games (maybe a bit when people take about WT being a sim which I don't agree with) I just feel like a lot of them are becoming a cash cow and taking us PC gamers for granted.

 

CLoD was built with a brand new engine, it was always going to cost money and time. a big risk.

BoS was built around an existing engine aimed at the ww2 crowd. Not much of a risk. The EA proved a lot of folk were interested, the dcs kickstarter proves there is still a demand for the genre.

I have no problem sitting at my desk with all the peripherals if the game is engaging. BOS is not engaging.

There is a demand for the genre. We've got to ask ourselves why the current crop of cfs are not engaging the customers. We may be dinosaurs but it's still the Jurassic era.

[Brano]

Im waiting for workers of No.1 Factory in Moscow to finish the assembly of my brand new MiG-3