109 advice needed

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Thems good tactics right thar!

 

Less aileron = less drag for those low-level scissor fights. 

[LukeFF]

It's gonna be interesting seeing how people approach the 109 vs. I-16 matchup. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Whining of EPIC proportions I suspect. BNZ for LIFE!!

[Dr_Molenbeek]

It's gonna be interesting seeing how people approach the 109 vs. I-16 matchup. 

 

Imagining that their FMs will be "okish".

 

Who said that the I-16 will roll like a Typhoon ? 

 

Just kidding, put away your guns...

[Sgt_Joch]

I seem to recall in "Black Cross Red Star", vol. 1, there was a story of a 109 ace that got into a dogfight with a I-16 not long after the invasion started and wound up getting himself shot down.

 

no doubt that I-16 was over modeled...

[Finkeren]

It's gonna be interesting seeing how people approach the 109 vs. I-16 matchup.

Oooh the whining....

 

Most LW pilots will ofc approach it the smart way and be absolutely untouchable (until a MiG-3 comes along)

 

But some will try a furball and will feel more burned than a Baratheon princess with a snowed-in father.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Oooh the whining....

 

Most LW pilots will ofc approach it the smart way and be absolutely untouchable (until a MiG-3 comes along)

 

But some will try a furball and will feel more burned than a Baratheon princess with a snowed-in father.

 

Whining?

 

The 109 is vastly superior if you fly it the way a 109 is meant to be flown... The whining comes from Yak flaps and other silliness...

[Wulf]

semi OT, but just finished reading "Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler's defeat in the East, 1942-43". One interesting fact is that the vast majority of VVS pilots assigned to the Stalingrad Fronts on nov. 19/42 were straight out of training school (i.e. green rookies) while most German fighter pilots were experienced veterans with months/years of combat experience. That is why the Jagdwaffe achieved the kill ratios it did, not because they were flying Uber planes.

 

How many Yak pilots in MP are "green rookies"?

 

 

Interesting, because when the Luftwaffe took on Fighter Command in the Battles of France and Britain, they ended up, in both years, with something like a 2 to 1 ration in terms of fighter aircraft lost.  At that stage of the war, the RAF had no direct contemporary experience of air combat.

 

However, in 1942 and '43, the Luftwaffe achieved in excess of a 5 to one ratio over the VVS which had, at this point, not only been directly involved in the air war in Spain (no more or less so than the Germans) but had also conducted extensive air campaigns over Finland and Poland, in addition to the direct interactions with the Luftwaffe from 1941.  One might perhaps have thought that if the Yak 1 and La-5 were as good as they appear in the game, the Soviets would have had sufficient experience of air combat by 1942 to exploit these advantages.  Strangely that proved not to be the case.  The Germans, it would seem, despite fighting an air war on two fronts from 1941 onwards, (and having lost significant numbers of men over Poland, the Low Countries, France and Britain - not to mention Russia) are always, it would seem, (or so goes the myth) in a position to employ legions of battle hardened experten whereas everyone else is supposedly reduced to putting fresh-faced farm boys into the cockpits of their fighters with little or no flying time - let alone combat experience.  If that is indeed the case, how did the Soviets ever manage to turn things around in '43-'44?  If it was, as you appear to suggest, just a matter of experience wins over technological parity, from where did the soviets 'magic-up' their reserves of battle hardened professionals in the period  immediately following the Stalingrad campaign? 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Wulf

[Finkeren]

Whining?

 

The 109 is vastly superior if you fly it the way a 109 is meant to be flown...

Agreed...

The whining comes from Yak flaps and other silliness...

Yes, something is wrong with the way the Yaks flaps are modelled, I think so too. There is some evidence that it also might be too fast at altitude, that will have to be looked into.

 

But that's not all people are complaining about. There's talk of Yaks outclimbing 109s and catching Fw 190s in a chase at low altitude. Something which obviously doesn't happen unless the LW pilot makes a mistake.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

VVS which had, at this point, not only been directly involved in the air war in Spain (no more or less so than the Germans) but had also conducted extensive air campaigns over Finland and Poland, in addition to the direct interactions with the Luftwaffe from 1941.  One might perhaps have thought that if the Yak 1 and La-5 were as good as they appear in the game, the Soviets would have had sufficient experience of air combat by 1942 to exploit these advantages.  Strangely that proved not to be the case.  The Germans, it would seem, despite fighting an air war on two fronts from 1941 onwards, (and having lost significant numbers of men over Poland, the Low Countries, France and Britain - not to mention Russia) are always, it would seem, (or so goes the myth) in a position to employ legions of battle hardened experten whereas everyone else is supposedly reduced to putting fresh-faced farm boys into the cockpits of their fighters with little or no flying time - let alone combat experience.  If that is indeed the case, how did the Soviets ever manage to turn things around in '43-'44?  If it was, as you appear to suggest, just a matter of experience wins over technological parity, from where did the soviets 'magic-up' their reserves of battle hardened professionals in the period  immediately following the Stalingrad campaign? 

 

True, soviets had combat experience from Spain. However, lessons learned by soviet pilots in there were not taken in consideration in Soviet Union, in fact those pilots were considered to be untrustworthy, maybe even treacherous, because they had been under foreign/western influence while in Spain. Against Finland during the winter war, soviet propaganda made the air campaign huge success, soviets claimed over 600 Finnish planes shot down (Finnish air force had about 400 combat aircraft and about 670 aircraft in total, loses were about 60, counting also planes lost in accidents), so there was no need to re-visioning air force tactics after winter war. Also in those days loyalty to communist party and Stalin was far more important than anything else. Germans on the other hand did not lose significant number of men before BoB and during early days of war their pilot training system were still able to cope with loses, so replacement pilots were still well trained and capable. As for soviets coming up with reserves of battle hardened pilots, well, some of their pilots did survive to become veterans, there were quite a lot of them and also at some point their training got (a bit) better. Also during 1943 they finally adapted modern air tactics in large scale.

All that said, I personally think that at least yak-1 is over performing in the game and I have scant hope that ever getting fixed.

[Felix58]

 

 

from where did the soviets 'magic-up' their reserves of battle hardened professionals in the period  immediately following the Stalingrad campaign?

 

The Soviets understood the limitations of their manpower.  Hi-tech and complex was not something they could have employed even if they wanted to.  They played the basic logistical card, if you shoot down 5 of our planes to one of ours, that is fine, we have plenty more (replace planes with tanks, men, ships, etc).  As crude as it was, in the end it was basic mathematics that got them to Berlin.  Also the basic model of Big Week in the west.

 

The Germans were not setup for a protracted war, but they got one.  They had to turn to force-multiplier factors (hi-tech, rockets (did not have the right warhead), higher training, etc).  The Atlantic campaign was a great example, the US built more ships than the Germans could sink, plus the allies smashed the U-Boats technologically and operationally.  At all levels the Allies gained superiority.  In the end it was the Germans that could not sustain their force multipliers (highly skilled personnel and technology), and dropped below the Soviet mass produced model in these terms.   They did not have to find "battle hardened professionals."

[SpaydCBR]

I hate to defend a Yak but if you are diving at 800 you are too vertical. A determined, skilled, pilot will follow you down at a shallower angle while you needlessly burn your E reserve. It will take some time but by diving at a shallower angle he will maintain his E better and kill you in the long run. Dive into the vertical only enough to out accelerate him then shallow it out to maintain your speed advantage for the long chase.

 

On the defensive your best 1v1 tactic is to get him Co-E, if you can, then climb him up and extend that way. I pitch to 325 kph for the climbs with good success.

 

Your best tactic is, of course, bring a wingman or call for one on comms while you dash. If I'm in a chase for more than about 60 seconds I'm always thinking, "ambush." Regardless of whether I'm the chaser or the chasee.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try that.

[Sgt_Joch]

Interesting, because when the Luftwaffe took on Fighter Command in the Battles of France and Britain, they ended up, in both years, with something like a 2 to 1 ration in terms of fighter aircraft lost.  At that stage of the war, the RAF had no direct contemporary experience of air combat.

 

However, in 1942 and '43, the Luftwaffe achieved in excess of a 5 to one ratio over the VVS which had, at this point, not only been directly involved in the air war in Spain (no more or less so than the Germans) but had also conducted extensive air campaigns over Finland and Poland, in addition to the direct interactions with the Luftwaffe from 1941.  One might perhaps have thought that if the Yak 1 and La-5 were as good as they appear in the game, the Soviets would have had sufficient experience of air combat by 1942 to exploit these advantages.  Strangely that proved not to be the case.  The Germans, it would seem, despite fighting an air war on two fronts from 1941 onwards, (and having lost significant numbers of men over Poland, the Low Countries, France and Britain - not to mention Russia) are always, it would seem, (or so goes the myth) in a position to employ legions of battle hardened experten whereas everyone else is supposedly reduced to putting fresh-faced farm boys into the cockpits of their fighters with little or no flying time - let alone combat experience.  If that is indeed the case, how did the Soviets ever manage to turn things around in '43-'44?  If it was, as you appear to suggest, just a matter of experience wins over technological parity, from where did the soviets 'magic-up' their reserves of battle hardened professionals in the period  immediately following the Stalingrad campaign? 

 

An interesting subject and one I have looked into over the years.

 

First in 1941, the average german pilot was better trained than the average Russian pilot, the german training program was longer and more thorough. The Russians had some very good pilots, but in Barbarossa, many died in the first few days, weeks and months. There is only so much you can do against overwhelming odds. From there, the Russians were just rushing fresh replacements in to keep up with the losses, the nadir was probably in mid-late 42.

 

Meanwhile the Germans had their own problem. Once the Eastern front started, their existing training program could no longer produce enough replacements and they started taking shortcuts, shortening the training program and then having some training completed at the front. Eventually, it became a vicious circle, as pilot quality went down, losses went up, requiring a further cut in training.

 

However, the Germans had an overall edge in quality until late 43, at least, at which point (43-44) many of the top aces were brought back to Germany to deal with the allied bomber offensive.

 

The Russians started coming back in the mid 43-mid 44 period. They had numerical superiority, good aircraft and pilots started to live long enough to gain combat experience and pass it on. From mid 44 to the end, the average Russian fighter pilot was probably equivalent to the average German pilot.

 

Again, here I am talking about global averages, both side had Aces that survived.

[Wulf]

An interesting subject and one I have looked into over the years.

 

First in 1941, the average german pilot was better trained than the average Russian pilot, the german training program was longer and more thorough. The Russians had some very good pilots, but in Barbarossa, many died in the first few days, weeks and months. There is only so much you can do against overwhelming odds. From there, the Russians were just rushing fresh replacements in to keep up with the losses, the nadir was probably in mid-late 42.

 

 

 

This stuff can be argued back and forth till the cows come home but one thing that cannot be disputed - it was the Luftwaffe, not the VVS, that was up against "overwhelming odds".  The Soviets always had far more aircraft than the Germans.  Even after the first few weeks of the campaign, the Soviet airforce was still much larger than the Luftwaffe.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Wulf

[LukeFF]

Outnumbered? Sure. Up against overwhelming odds, in 1941-42? Not a chance. Much of the Soviet air force in 41-42 was nothing more than flying target practice. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by LukeFF