109 advice needed

[Reflected]

Folks,

 

 OVer the years I got quite comfortable in RoF, I know all the advantages & disadvantages of each aircraft and I can climb into the air feeling quite self-confident. Now that I'm sitting in a 109 it's all upside-down. I'm blown out of the sky every time.

 

Please give me some advice how to fight Yak-s and La5-s.

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Finkeren]

G-2 has a lower acceleration and hence inferior sustained turn than the F-4 but it has higher top speed and as good or better climb rate (though the F-4 wins in a zoom climb. The biggest drawback is the heavy framed cockpit, but on the other hand you have the armoured glass headrest which greatly improves overall situational awareness.

 

Those are all minor differences tbh. None of them change much regarding the overall superiority as fighters over all of the VVS planes.

 

When flying any Bf 109 the answer to almost any situation is 'climb'. Put some air between you and your opponent, let him choose between bleeding his energy in a contest he cannot win or be forced on the defensive. Both 109s have such a big advantage in climb rate, that it really becomes all that matters.

[Finkeren]

Another thing (though I'm sure you already know that): Never bring gunpods unless you're absolutely certain, that you're going out to hunt bombers.

 

Using gunpods hits the G-2 twice as hard, because it's already heavier loaded and a bit behind in acceleration. They can degrade performance enough to have the Yaks run circles around you and even catch you in a climb.

 

If you feel you need the firepower, fly a Fw 190 instead.

[Reflected]

No no, no gunpods...

 

So you're saying the G-2 should outclimb all the reds? Even if they lower their flaps?

 

What is the best climb rate? Is it a Fokker Dr1 kind of low speed, prop hanging climb, or the SE5a kind that's shallow, barely going up?

 

Is the G-2 faster than the Yak at ground level?

 

Thanks,

Greg

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Not teaching you how to suck eggs but the 109 was and is an energy fighter. It's pointless getting into a turn fight with the soviet birds. People will mock if you are flying at a higher altitude but by engaging  in low level, on the deck  unrealistic turning "furballs"  you are going to get shot down more often than not because they have 100% of the advantage.

 

Height is your friend  because you can turn that into energy.  if you are in a gentle spiral climb in the G2  staying around  300km with the enemy below you they will invariable not be able to stay with you in the climb as they lose energy very quickly. This is where you turn your height to your advantage and boom and zoom them.  

[SR-F_Winger]

Folks,

 

 OVer the years I got quite comfortable in RoF, I know all the advantages & disadvantages of each aircraft and I can climb into the air feeling quite self-confident. Now that I'm sitting in a 109 it's all upside-down. I'm blown out of the sky every time.

 

Please give me some advice how to fight Yak-s and La5-s.

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

Thanks in advance!

Thats the YAK-1 UFO issue i am talking about almost everytime i post and the reason why all my squad dont play BOS anymore at all.

YAK 1 ist just overperforming and it has been proved by celestiale and its being ignored since months.

[Original_Uwe]

In what regard?

[150GCT_Veltro]

Yak has been probably "forced" for balancing purpose. I prefer don't call it an UFO but i agree it should have to be checked at least.

[SR-F_Winger]

In what regard?

Speed at various altitudes for example. Climbperformance with deployed flaps for example.

 

at Veltro: But thats no proper practice for a flightsim. Unacceptable.

Better decision would have been to just choose another senario in wich planes perform closer.

Messing up the relative performance for balancinpurposes belongs to a GAME like War Thunder. Not a SIM.

Edited June 5, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[Finkeren]

So you're saying the G-2 should outclimb all the reds? Even if they lower their flaps?

There is something wrong with the way the flaps are modelled on the Yak, but in my experience (I never personally use flaps when flying the Yak) it doesn't allow the Yak to catch a 109 in a sustained climb.

 

What is the best climb rate? Is it a Fokker Dr1 kind of low speed, prop hanging climb, or the SE5a kind that's shallow, barely going up?

Both the Yak and the G-2 climb optimally around 320-330km/h at low/medium altitude, but I find that it's better to climb slightly shallower in the G-2 at around 360km/h. You'll still climb better than your opponent, and you'll put horizontal distance between you at a comfortable rate.

 

Is the G-2 faster than the Yak at ground level?

Yes. Some may give you a different answer, but IMHO they are misinterpreting anecdotal evidence. Tests done by several members of the community are consistent with my own experience. The G-2 is faster than the Yak at all altitudes by a significant margin.

[Reflected]

Thanks Finkeren! Do I have to manually close the rads to do that, or is it not necessary? How do you guys do it?

[Finkeren]

Honestly I always fly on automatic, and it's performing great. I only use manual pitch for taxiing and never manual radiators.

[Reflected]

Alright, makes sense!

 

One more thing: let's suppose I f-d up, and yaks are closing in on my tail. What is the best way to shake them off? No turning for sure, perhaps vertical scissors?

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Dip nose and extend....unless you've really screwed up G2 is faster in  level flight

 

Once you are accelerating away from them you can then start climbing at high speed with a shallow angle, as you start to climb higher than the Yak you can increase the climb and eventually switch it to a spiral turn, circle round above them and then you have the advantage.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Folks,

 

 OVer the years I got quite comfortable in RoF, I know all the advantages & disadvantages of each aircraft and I can climb into the air feeling quite self-confident. Now that I'm sitting in a 109 it's all upside-down. I'm blown out of the sky every time.

 

Please give me some advice how to fight Yak-s and La5-s.

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Welcome to Battle of Stalingrad.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

From co-E or better, I find no Russian AC can match a climb if you pitch to 325 - regardless of which German plane you fly. This is a much steeper climb in a 109 as opposed to a 190. All at max cruise rpm - not full throttle. Only the 190 may need full throttle through the supercharger lag zone (appx 1300-2300m). Also, this is in a clean configuration. Bomb racks make a difference and you will need a wingman to escape from co-E or worse. I've never needed/used a gun pod.

Edited June 5, 2015 by HerrMurf

[Original_Uwe]

Speed at various altitudes for example. Climbperformance with deployed flaps for example.

 

 

Im not sure about the climb performance but it's not outperforming the 109 in speed at any level.

[SR-F_Winger]

Im not sure about the climb performance but it's not outperforming the 109 in speed at any level.

I wasnt saying its performing better in speeds. I was saying its overperforming. Celestaile proved that in his levelflighttests. I never read any real official response on his tests. If there is I would be grateful for a link.

This BOS is early war scenario. One of the few in wich german planes actually really performed much better than the allied ones. This is not reflected in this sim.

I dont want to think what will become of this when we get a theater in wich the russian/allied planes REALLY performed better...

...Just stay on ground and not start at all is my worry right now:P

 

EDIT: But enough with that. Ill just leave and come back when a new patch is here. Still hoping itll improve some day.

Until then ill give TF Clod another try.

Edited June 5, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[Reflected]

 

 

This is not reflected in this sim.

 

 

But this is Reflected in this sim 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the horrible joke, now back on topic, carry on 

[Sunde]

Hey Reflected, you will find that one of the best ways to learn how to stay alive in these kind of games, will be to jump online with a few people - that have flown this sim for a while. Many people are willing to share a few tips and tricks.
Just for "YAK UFO" discussion - honestly - the yak might be overpeforming - i never flew it so i cant say for sure. BUT i have to say the 109 still peformes better than the yak, so if you find that no matter what you do the yak outpeformes you, well something is not right.  
 

[Wulf]

Folks,

 

 OVer the years I got quite comfortable in RoF, I know all the advantages & disadvantages of each aircraft and I can climb into the air feeling quite self-confident. Now that I'm sitting in a 109 it's all upside-down. I'm blown out of the sky every time.

 

Please give me some advice how to fight Yak-s and La5-s.

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

I agree entirely with Winger.  The Yaks over-perform (energy retention, roll-rate, speed etc) as do all three Soviet fighter types in the sim.

 

Maybe this will be corrected with time, I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.  If the Devs are unaware of these issues one can only conclude they don't play the game.  These problems are that glaringly obvious you couldn't help but notice them.

 

I don't fly the 109 but I do fly the 190 and the approach to be taken is very much the same in both.  Do your best to get well above the enemy before you consider engaging in combat.  Once there, dive, shoot, climb - and then repeat as required.  Just remember, try and keep at least 600m or 700m separation (as a minimum) from the enemy during all phases of the climb.  If the enemy close this gap, quickly flatten-out and accelerate hard to re-establish separation.  The last thing you want is to run out of steam in a near vertical climbing contest with a Soviet machine - which you suddenly discover has far more energy than you thought he did.  Once the Yak/La/LaGG has closed to 400-500m, in such circumstances, you'll be a sitting duck.  So, watch him carefully and flatten and extend in good time if necessary.

[Willy__]

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)   4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?   5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

3 and 4 are very much related, everytime I got caught up by a Yak its because either he was above me, or because I didnt judge his energy state correctly and he close in faster than predicted. When thats happens you're done. Always keep distance, you just cant let them get close to you! Only close the distance on shooting opportunities. I made a rule for myselft that I wont engage any plane that has the advantage over me unless I really need to, even more when I fly the 190, because I cant climb away with it.

 

Now about 5... It really depends on the server/people playing, sometimes I see a lot of ruskies up there at 4k+ alt, sometimes I see none. In that case, if you see someone below you, dont just dive straight away, circle above, see your surroundings, see if the enemy is alone, stalk him for a while if you need to wait for a better opportunity, and when you see that there no one around, you pounce. But never let go of that speed, you'll need in case trouble appears! One thing that I really like to do is powerdives from 4k+ altitude with the 190, more than often you were so high, and in the dive you get so much speed that the enemies wont see you coming, but that strategy dont work very well with the 109 (elevator stiffening!).

Edited June 5, 2015 by istruba

[Matt]

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

1) The G-2 is mostly accurate, that's why i prefer to fly it too and ignore the F-4.

 

2) Mostly because of the Yak-1 flaps stuff, if both planes keep their flaps retracted, the turn is pretty similar. I guess the flap issue might now be looking into. (the FM sub forum really make no sense, if nobody takes a look into them btw).

 

3) The F-4 is relatively as fast as it should be compared to the Yak-1, the G-2 isn't (because the G-2, unlike the F-4 and Yak-1, is not overperforming). 

 

4) See 2), but the F-4 still handily outclimbs any of the Russian planes.

 

5) That's why i'm currently sticking to SP (and CloD).

 

I wasnt saying its performing better in speeds. I was saying its overperforming. Celestaile proved that in his levelflighttests. I never read any real official response on his tests. If there is I would be grateful for a link.

The Bf-109 F-4 is overperforming too (almost as much overall, so the relative performance between those two planes is almost accurate). So unless you're sticking to the G-2 or A-3 (are you?), complaining about only the Yak-1 is a bit rediculous.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Matt

[Original_Uwe]

For that matter we need more people to test. There are only two tests posted in the FM section, celestials and mine, and there are large variances between the two.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Adding my few cents:

Folks,

 

 OVer the years I got quite comfortable in RoF, I know all the advantages & disadvantages of each aircraft and I can climb into the air feeling quite self-confident. Now that I'm sitting in a 109 it's all upside-down. I'm blown out of the sky every time.

 

Please give me some advice how to fight Yak-s and La5-s.

 

1) I know the F-4 is MUCH better than the G-2 ,but I just prefer the Gustav. Is it completely hopeless? Visibility sucks, and I've learned not to throttle down because it takes ages for the auto prop pitch to rev up again. Like a pregnant cow...

 

2) I know I shouldn't turn with them. I never even try.

 

3)The 109 is supposed to be faster than them, isn't it? Still , I never seem to be able to get away (full throttle, auto prop pitch)

 

4) The 109 is supposed to climb better, or at least preserve energy better - I've never been able to outclimb a Yak. They lower their flaps and fly circles around me. Should I lower it too?

 

5) I know, some say I should stay above 4000m - but nothing is happening up there, everybody is at ground level. From 4000 I'm having a really hard time spotting others.

 

Thanks in advance!

1) G-2 - even with limited engine power - should be about equal at ground level and superiour at high altitudes to the F-4. That however is not the case ingame.

 

2) It really depends. 109s are (how I tend to call them) great energy-turnfighter. You should not rely on only one but both of them. If you see a La-5 closing in behind you're doing best at dragging him into a spiral climb, rope a dope and vertical manouvres. If you pull your manouvres nice and smooth you can keep your energy up well. La-5 handles pretty crappy at low speed so you can drag him high and wait for him to slow down, than turnfight him.

 

Yaks are the G-2 natural death sentence ingame. Turns better, very slightly worse rate of climb, better energy retention - that is difficult to beat. If you meat one coalt it's impossible to E-fight him, either risk a turn fight or escape in a dive.

 

3) Faster than Yak - yes. Faster than La-5 - only at alts above 2km, where La-5 can't use Fortza. With Fortza La-5 is equally fast / slightly faster at ground level.

 

4) As said in 2) Yak + coalt = RIP 109. Don't drag Yaks into steep climbs or they'll catch up even if they're slower. Instead you can try to perform a highspeed climb at 400+ km/h and hope for him to disengage you.

 

5) That's because MP is low crouded due to low player limits. Lack of mid-high altitude action is a disadvantage for german aircraft since they can't use all their strenghs to their favour. They're still potent at 2000-3000m but so are the Yak and La-5.

 

Both the Yak and the G-2 climb optimally around 320-330km/h at low/medium altitude, but I find that it's better to climb slightly shallower in the G-2 at around 360km/h. You'll still climb better than your opponent, and you'll put horizontal distance between you at a comfortable rate.

Manual says 260-270 km/h IAS for both aircraft. But in combat this might not be optimal, since you try to build up the highest distance to your enemy, which isn't nessecarily in form of highest possible altitudes. You generally want to climb at faster speeds so the enemy aircraft can slowly lose it's speed and momentum before pulling him into a stall climb.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

The only fighter in the game I fear is the Yak-1. The Yak can out turn, out climb,and out run a 109 and that's not how it was in real life. I used to have a strategy for escaping the Yak even though it could catch me in a climb (not realistic). Hit the deck and run but now they catch up so unless someone comes to my aid I get shot down.

Edited June 7, 2015 by OCTz06z33

[Finkeren]

Sorry OCT but if you're generally being outclimbed and outrun by Yaks when flying a 109 in BoS, then you're either doing something wrong or you have a completely different version of the sim than me.

[Original_Uwe]

Sorry OCT but if you're generally being outclimbed and outrun by Yaks when flying a 109 in BoS, then you're either doing something wrong or you have a completely different version of the sim than me.

I haven't measured climb, but the yak is definitely not, in any way, faster than the 109.

[SpaydCBR]

It really does seem that Yaks have no problem catching up to 109s. I was just in a game where i was just patrolling at about 4000m. Suddenly I get hit and suffer a fuel leak. I looked behind me and saw a Yak, so i did a vertical dive from 4000m and levelled out at the deck trying not to break any parts of my wing, so I was going pretty fast (around 700-800kph). Not only was the Yak still behind me, he just simply caught up and finished me off. Not sure how I could have got that wrong. Proper evasion advice would be nice

[Original_Uwe]

They may accelerate faster but in top speed the 109 beats it by a fair margin the higher up you go.

 

Don't get jumpped.

Edited June 7, 2015 by forsale

[Dr_Molenbeek]

The Yak-1 does not outclimbs 109s, for sure, but it retain his energy far better than 109s and 190, especially at high speed.

 

I'm talking about the BoS Yak-1, of course... the one that is comparable to the Fw 190A-3 in high speed climb. 

[Wulf]

I guess like OCT and Spayd, I 'm also doing something very wrong because I'm finding it increasingly difficult, and in many cases quite impossible, to disengage from both Yaks and La-5s - in my 190!

 

Typically, I find they will stay with me in a dive and then slowly haul me in over a long tail-chase across the landscape.  When they eventually get within gun-range (500 m + in some cases) it's pretty much over because you're forced to either burn your motor or jink-about in order to stay alive.  If a teammate doesn't come along at this point your done.  So, in my experience the Yaks and La-5s are either as fast OR, they can operate at max power for much longer.  Either way, they will get you eventually.  Now, as far as I'm aware, this isn't historically accurate but hey, let's not go there or the next thing we'll be talking about roll-rates and energy retention etc.

 

So, having reviewed this, I'm happy to receive advice from my fellow flyers as to what I'm doing wrong...

 

(Fink; perhaps you could help out here as you appear to be an expert on these matters.....)

Edited June 7, 2015 by Wulf

[Original_Uwe]

It could be that players are gaming the game and running their fighters into the red and killing their motors to get am extra edge, but at combat power within operating Temps the Germans leave the filthy bolsheviks in the dust.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

G-2 can only operate at combat power at max. so do it's russian counterparts (unless you use Fortza on La-5), so the only planes one can kill their engines in is the F4. Energy rentention is quite a big issue with the Yak as well, it can effectively loop without losing energy (flaps retracted) or pull barrel rolls without losing alt. I once put one in a very careful energy relying digfight at high alt in my G-2 and was suprised how he always ended up above me despite followign each of my manouvres in the same way.

 

Anyway, let's not get that drifted off into a competition discussion. Even if issues like that are possible to overcome with superiour piloting or tactics they still remain wrong, which is the only thing that matters frankly.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It really does seem that Yaks have no problem catching up to 109s. I was just in a game where i was just patrolling at about 4000m. Suddenly I get hit and suffer a fuel leak. I looked behind me and saw a Yak, so i did a vertical dive from 4000m and levelled out at the deck trying not to break any parts of my wing, so I was going pretty fast (around 700-800kph). Not only was the Yak still behind me, he just simply caught up and finished me off. Not sure how I could have got that wrong. Proper evasion advice would be nice

I hate to defend a Yak but if you are diving at 800 you are too vertical. A determined, skilled, pilot will follow you down at a shallower angle while you needlessly burn your E reserve. It will take some time but by diving at a shallower angle he will maintain his E better and kill you in the long run. Dive into the vertical only enough to out accelerate him then shallow it out to maintain your speed advantage for the long chase.

 

On the defensive your best 1v1 tactic is to get him Co-E, if you can, then climb him up and extend that way. I pitch to 325 kph for the climbs with good success.

 

Your best tactic is, of course, bring a wingman or call for one on comms while you dash. If I'm in a chase for more than about 60 seconds I'm always thinking, "ambush." Regardless of whether I'm the chaser or the chasee.

Edited June 8, 2015 by HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

G-2 can only operate at combat power at max. so do it's russian counterparts (unless you use Fortza on La-5), so the only planes one can kill their engines in is the F4 and Fw 190.

Small typo here.

I hate to defend a Yak but if you are diving at 800 you are too vertical.

Depends on what you're intending to you. If you make a very steep dive while accelerating to high speed in the 109, roll the plane 180° and level out in the opposite direction the Yak should not be able to follow. That's a subject for it's own, just wanted to mention it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Sgt_Joch]

semi OT, but just finished reading "Stopped at Stalingrad: The Luftwaffe and Hitler's defeat in the East, 1942-43". One interesting fact is that the vast majority of VVS pilots assigned to the Stalingrad Fronts on nov. 19/42 were straight out of training school (i.e. green rookies) while most German fighter pilots were experienced veterans with months/years of combat experience. That is why the Jagdwaffe achieved the kill ratios it did, not because they were flying Uber planes.

 

How many Yak pilots in MP are "green rookies"?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Small typo here.

Depends on what you're intending to you. If you make a very steep dive while accelerating to high speed in the 109, roll the plane 180° and level out in the opposite direction the Yak should not be able to follow. That's a subject for it's own, just wanted to mention it.

There are counters for this as well. 800 kph is almost never necessary. Maintaining E is always the best move regardless of type. The German aircraft, in good hands, should almost always have the E advantage or be able to gain it. Don't bleed it in turn fights and don't give it up by being uneconomical. Why dive to 800 when something less will usually do the trick and leave a little in the bank for use when you need it?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Why dive to 800 when something less will usually do the trick and leave a little in the bank for use when you need it?

 

Because watching your aileron fly off in an overspeed dive is half the fun!

Edited June 8, 2015 by 4./JG26_Adler

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Thems good tactics right thar!