Stalingrad vs Cliffs of Dover

[The_Shadow]

Hi, I've been playing BoS and CoD side-by-side for a while, and was just wondering how you think they compare to each other?  One big difference is the way your head moves in CoD, I feel like a goldfish being sloshed around in a bowl with the smallest movement of my plane - this isn't portrayed nearly as much in BoS, which is closer to IL-2 with head movement.  It is very disorienting, and I was curious which you think is more realistic (I'm not a real pilot, so I have no idea).  Another thing is the destructive power of the 20mm cannons.  In BoS it seems much easier to destroy a Russian fighter with a single cannon, where with two wing cannons in CoD, hits do less damage.  Has anyone noticed other differences between the two, and which do you think is more accurate?  I was curious, because I like both games, and since they are released by the same company (kind of), I was wondering if there were any plans to make them more consistent with each other?  Thanks.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Prediction....

 

 

This thread will be locked very soon.

 

P.S CLOD = fly on rails for me  :D

[Reflected]

Although I like the head movements in CloD it feels a lot like flying on rails. BoS has this wonderful feeling of flight, inherited from RoF.

[The_Shadow]

Locked?  I don't understand.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

lol you'll see when the CLOD fans come by and see this post.

[SharpeXB]

Actually I don't like the head movement in CoD either. There was a huge interesting discussion about it ages ago. In the real world you head might move but your vision doesn't. So I like BoS better that way.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Actually I don't like the head movement in CoD either. There was a huge interesting discussion about it ages ago. In the real world you head might move but your vision doesn't. So I like BoS better that way.

 

In all honesty I never noticed a difference in the head movement

lol you'll see when the CLOD fans come by and see this post.

 

[Livai]

Another thing is the destructive power of the 20mm cannons. In BoS it seems much easier to destroy a Russian fighter with a single cannon, where with two wing cannons in CoD, hits do less damage. Has anyone noticed other differences between the two, and which do you think is more accurate?

 

You need to test this what you notice with the Fw-190. The Fw-190 is very good for a comparison.

You can test this with CloD, too. Replace the Wingcannons from the Bf-109 E-4 with MG151 Cannons. This cut every plane in CloD into shatters. The damage from the CloD MG151 Cannons is very impressive.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Superghostboy

[Bearcat]

Moved to Free subject.

 

Prediction....

This thread will be locked very soon.

P.S CLOD = fly on rails for me  :D

 

Locked?  I don't understand.

 

lol you'll see when the CLOD fans come by and see this post.

 

 

This thread will not be locked unless it goes south and if that happens I will have no choice but to think that it was done intentionally and I will cross that bridge if/when I get to it.

Frankly I think that if a bunch of adults can't have a decent adult discussion about what they appreciate from different flight sims on a flight sim forum ..  even with the history we have .. at this juncture then something is wrong with the people involved in the discussion or lack therein. So let's just be adults.. There is no reason why this cannot happen other than people intentionally trying to be provocative and shut the thread down so just ... act like adults.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

It's not going to happen though and that's what makes me laugh :D

 

Serious face on: both sims have their pros and cons

[Cybermat47]

I fly CloD more than BoS, but look at it this way... with BoS, you get the Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Velkie Luki, with CloD, you get the Fall of France, the Battle of Britain, the Channel Front, and the Blitz (and, through Heinkill's creativity, the Siege of Malta and Battle of Murmansk). BoS is about to get the Battle of Moscow, and CloD is about to get another theatre (most likely North Africa).

 

Don't limit yourself. If you have both, play both. They both offer different aircraft and different battles.

[Blooddawn1942]

There is no other way then to play both. No point in further arguing about the pros and cons of both titles. He, who is addicted to WWII CBFS, must surely own and play both titles.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I fly CloD more than BoS, but look at it this way... with BoS, you get the Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Velkie Luki, with CloD, you get the Fall of France, the Battle of Britain, the Channel Front, and the Blitz (and, through Heinkill's creativity, the Siege of Malta and Battle of Murmansk). BoS is about to get the Battle of Moscow, and CloD is about to get another theatre (most likely North Africa).

 

Don't limit yourself. If you have both, play both. They both offer different aircraft and different battles.

 

Malta (at the least) has been confirmed for TF5.0.

There is no other way then to play both. No point in further arguing about the pros and cons of both titles. He, who is addicted to WWII CBFS, must surely own and play both titles.

 

The only way is to fly the sim you enjoy.

[Blooddawn1942]

Well thats true. I was just thinking out loud.

What I was intended to express: I don´t get those trench battles, my sim VS Your sim. Don´t need it. As long as it´s good I enjoy it.

[Bearcat]

I fly CloD more than BoS, but look at it this way... with BoS, you get the Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Velkie Luki, with CloD, you get the Fall of France, the Battle of Britain, the Channel Front, and the Blitz (and, through Heinkill's creativity, the Siege of Malta and Battle of Murmansk). BoS is about to get the Battle of Moscow, and CloD is about to get another theatre (most likely North Africa).

 

Don't limit yourself. If you have both, play both. They both offer different aircraft and different battles.

 

You know Mat that is how I look at it too.. and even when DCS WWII is released.. That will be Normandy and for all intents and purposes a different plane set.  I look at this as having 4 sims to choose from.. IL2, CoD, DCS and IL2.. Eventually depending on how this all shakes out I will more than likely setle more on one or the other with IL2 original being an all time favorite and standby because it is just fun and easy .. I'd rather do IL2 than WT... for fun.. but I see no reason why I cannot support and enjoy as many decent WWII sims out there as I can afford to.

[Reflected]

Yes, it's great that one can play both actually, but I think many are like me: with very limited time to fly. Therefore one settles for the sim they like best. Both have their advantages:

 

CloD:

Breat-taking damage model

Interesting map

Cockpit graphics

 

BoS:

More realistic look, not that cartoonish

Much more realistic FM-s (not talking about data and parameters, but physics)

Fantastic FFB

 

Whenever I go back to CloD I miss this feeling of flight. It's a fantastic sim, but BoS feels like "the next generation" to me. I really can't wait for the FM-s to be ironed out parameter-wise and mainly for the map without snow. Boring is an understatement for snow, as realistic as it is.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Reflected

[Finkeren]

I love the fact that there are two highly ambitious WW2 CFS out there that are both still evolving.

 

It's no secret, that I much prefer BoS as a sim, but that doesn't mean that ClOD isn't doing a lot of stuff right as well. I just wish that I could get the latest TF version to run properly.

 

To me these sims are not competing against one another, they are suplementing each other.

[72sq_Savinio]

To me these sims are not competing against one another, they are suplementing each other.

 

+1

 

I think that actually the strongest points of CloD are the weakest of BoS and viceversa. My personal opinion, all the strongest points of Clod are directly connected to multiplayer possibility, and only thanks to  players community work, Team Fusion and People who work hard to create and manage server where squadron's battle and campaign are hosted. I hope to see the same future for BoS.. a rich multiplayer contest. But we (players) need the support of developers because in my opinion actually 48 player and some other trouble aren't so much easy to solve for the multiplayer community. I love fly BoS, and i love play multiplayer battle in CloD... but once you've fly BoS... Clod isn't  the same thing.

Edited June 4, 2015 by 72sq_Savinio

[IRRE_Belmont]

Well there is actually something to do in CLOD  , more variety.

 

But yeah, the Flight sensations are better in BoS

[Finkeren]

Well there is actually something to do in CLOD  , more variety.

 

That is only because some dedicated people working on their own time has created content for it.

 

On release ClOD was way more barren than BoS ever was.

 

That's why we need a mods-on mode in BoS or some other way to facilitate 3rd party campaigns, career mode and coop style gameplay.

[Bearcat]

I love the fact that there are two highly ambitious WW2 CFS out there that are both still evolving.

 

It's no secret, that I much prefer BoS as a sim, but that doesn't mean that ClOD isn't doing a lot of stuff right as well. I just wish that I could get the latest TF version to run properly.

 

To me these sims are not competing against one another, they are suplementing each other.

 

I agree..  for now anyway.. CoD looks more like IL2 to me.. it looks better than IL2 .. but it has a texture that is similar.. sort of like a kid looking like his dad..  I still do not get why they just did not update the graphics and keep most of the functionality of IL2 in tact adding the extra bells and whistles feature wise as the sim grew but making it as functional as possible initially..  I reinstalled IL2 for the heck of it.. and compared it to 46.. and it boggles the mind that all that stuff was in there.. it is like looking at an oak tree and an acorn and going...

They really did not have to add all that stuff right off the bat because everyone was waiting for it since it was foirst announced in 2006 and most folks would have bought into it immediately had it worked better out of the box. I still wonder what role the hacking of IL2 played in what happened to CoD.. IIRC it may have been meant to be modded, that may have been in the plans but it was opened up sooner than they had planned to do that.. Maybe someone who knows more can comment on that.. but I seem to remember reading that it was cracked before the devs were ready to do a mos mode..

 

That is only because some dedicated people working on their own time has created content for it.

 

On release ClOD was way more barren than BoS ever was.

 

That's why we need a mods-on mode in BoS or some other way to facilitate 3rd party campaigns, career mode and coop style gameplay.

 

I agree... who knows.. regardless to what was said perhaps that is something that will eventually be done. I think that at the end of the day the devs all just want to make a good product that people will want to buy and they have proven to me to a sufficient level that they are willing to adjust their plans even if that adjustment is not in a time frame that I would like.

[BSS_Mudcat]

Both games suffer from the exact same CON - extremely limited scope.

 

Yak's and LaGG's hold the same appeal for me as Spits and Hurricanes, not a whole lot.  Limited variety over a limited area, that's great if you like what's there.  

 

Plans for expansion of both games will change that, but for me both games get very boring quickly as I just don't care/not interested in either's current plane line-up.  

[Bearcat]

You have to start somewhere..

 

I like the damage model of BoS better.. I like the detail of damage as far as systems etc go when fighting on both.. but for me the collision damage model of BoS is more detailed..  I also lkke the fact that like RoF you can actually move planes behind you with your prop wash.. on the ground.. One thing I don't like about BoS is the way the controllers are implemented.. I really wish that they would make axis asingments for anything that was a wheel or a lever..  That is one thing I like about the way DCS does their contols implementation.. it seems kind of convoluted in BoS.. and then you have the hand gestures which was probably a holdover from RoF.. but .. really? Who uses that.. Hmmm that sounds like a poll...

[BSS_Mudcat]

You have to start somewhere..

 

 

Of course you have to start somewhere, still doesn't change the fact I don't find either "starting place" very interesting

[Finkeren]

Of course you have to start somewhere, still doesn't change the fact I don't find either "starting place" very interesting

 

That's personal preference ofc. Can't argue with that.

 

On the other hand, I'm extremely glad, that the devs have chosen to stick with the Eastern Front for the first expansion (or whatever you wanna call it) Not only because I like the theatre (which I do) but because it builds more variety for that particular theater instead of just giving us a whole new theater with limited variety.

 

I do hope, that this sim is staying in the east for at least 2 more installments to get the 'full scope' of that war (we'll never reach the number of flyables of IL2 1946, that's just not feasible). Ideally we'll get to cover at least 4 main periods: Early war (BoM), early mid-war (BoS), late mid-war (Kursk and/or Bagration) and late war (propably Vistula-Oder)

 

After that it'll propably be time to move on, and by then we'll have over 40 planes and a fleshed-out Eastern Front.

[Bearcat]

I wouldn't mind either .. Don't get me wrong.. I'd would love to go to the med..  I know as long as we are on the east front the chances of me getting to ride my Pony under these FMs is less..  but for me as long as the sim continues to grow and many of the things that are not as right as they could be with it are addressed I will be happy and I am willing to drop coin until such time comes. As long as the sim is still being supported I don't mind spending my money on it.

 

I am very curious to see where CoD will be next summer.

[SYN_Mike77]

I never had the graphic problems (stutters, slideshow etc.) that others had with CloD and the theatre has much more interest for me than does Stalingrad so I should like CloD much more than I do BoS.  However, as others have noted the feeling of flight just isn't there in CloD like it is with BoS/RoF.  That's the starting line for me.  If it doesn't have that, why would I spend any time playing?

 

With the Belmont tomorrow, an analogy:  If you have a horse with great tactical speed and unbelievable stamina but you can never get him to load into the starting gate without throwing his rider, what you have when the bell rings is a horse already being led back to the barn.  CloD is in the barn for me.  Occasionally I will get it out to try it and 5 minutes later, back to the barn.

[LLv24_Zami]

SYN_Mike77, pretty much same for me.

 

Except I find eastern front more interesting and would add that the CloD AI is terrible so no go for SP.

[SYN_Mike77]

BoB is my favorite theatre of the war.  Makes CloD even more frustrating.  Seeing all the wonderful things that team fusion has done makes me salivate.  If only they could give it that unquantifiable feeling of flight I get with the RoF/BoS/BoM engine.

[MicroShket]

Except I find eastern front more interesting and would add that the CloD AI is terrible so no go for SP.

So, you want to say that BoS AI is better than in CloD? :\ I don't think so.

Someone in russian forum calculated AI's gumption by MVI v1.4 (Measuring of virtual intelligence) for MSFS (farcically, but nevertheless):

 

 

MSFS - 1.0

War Thunder - 0.34

Wings of Prey- 0.44

IL-2 (2001) - 1.28

IL-2 1946 until v.4.09 - 1.38

HSFX 7.03 - 1.54

CloD -1.12 (last official patch)

BoS 1.009 -1.04

 

 

 

From my own experience, allied AI in BoS is kettlebell on the leg.

IMHO.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I still have opinion that Ai in DCS is superior to any other simulation, they do all kinds of maneuvers including the scissors which is very surprising. Of course as any Ai they are "boosted" and always know that you are approaching and can follow you through clouds but after years of that ... I dont expect anything else

 

Personally I dont like the Ai in BoS, and although dont have any good comparison with CloD ... I still would prefer latter one. Ai in BoS just tends to fly tighter and tighter circles after all ...

[BSS_Mudcat]

For those that say CloD FM's feel "on rails" do you think it's for all planes, or just certain ones like 109's.  I'm genuinely curious as I've never had that feeling with the game, but I also don't fly any of the axis planes, apart from the occasional jaunt in a G.50, that is till a friendly shoots me down cause they think I'm a hurricane lol.

 

I guess it really comes down to what you are more use to, only thing I can think of for the on-rails comments is that the planes certainly feel like they have weight to them, probably a bit more so than other games, although I personally would never say "on-rails" as to me that's like saying it's like you're playing "Rebel Assault" or something.

 

If I ever wind up flying one of these planes IRL, then I guess then i can make a good judgement on which is better. 

[Bearcat]

I don't get that feeling either in CoD.. I often wonder how much of the FM debate is related to stick settings..

[SYN_Mike77]

My stick settings are the same for all flight sims, zero curves.  In this case, I don't think thats it.

[sallee]

I agree..  for now anyway.. CoD looks more like IL2 to me.. it looks better than IL2 .. but it has a texture that is similar.. sort of like a kid looking like his dad..  I still do not get why they just did not update the graphics and keep most of the functionality of IL2 in tact adding the extra bells and whistles feature wise as the sim grew but making it as functional as possible initially..  I reinstalled IL2 for the heck of it.. and compared it to 46.. and it boggles the mind that all that stuff was in there.. it is like looking at an oak tree and an acorn and going...

As so often, Bear, rem accu tetigisti.

[Sokol1]

 say CloD FM's feel "on rails" 

 

This CLoD (DCS, 1946, etc.) "on rails" is because the planes dont fly "weaved" in these.

 

Take a BoS plane, trim to level flight and record some minutes, watch the track and increase the time to 16x, you see the plane fly like sake in hot sand, these 'sub-par" simulator's don't have this ability.

 

Is the "visual fell" of the flight. 

 

I dont know if this Jetseat is cable to reproduce these "weaves":

 

http://www.ferra.ru/ru/games/review/Gametrix-JetSeat-KW-901/#.VXCTnM9Viko

 

Anyway is not supported by BoS.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sokol1

[BSS_Mudcat]

This CLoD (DCS, 1946, etc.) "on rails" is because the planes dont fly "weaved" in these.

 

Take a BoS plane, trim to level flight and record some minutes, watch the track and increase the time to 16x, you see the plane fly like sake in hot sand, these 'sub-par" simulator's don't have this ability.

 

Is the "visual fell" of the flight. 

 

I dont know if this Jetseat is cable to reproduce these "weaves":

 

http://www.ferra.ru/ru/games/review/Gametrix-JetSeat-KW-901/#.VXCTnM9Viko

 

Anyway is not supported by BoS.

 

Thank you, always thought in comparison BoS planes felt a bit float-y, but wasn't sure if someone would take exception to that.  I'm certainly no expert.  Isn't part of my personal pro's or con's as it's something that doesn't effect my enjoyment.  Thanks for clearing that up for me.  

[LLv24_Zami]

So, you want to say that BoS AI is better than in CloD? :\ I don't think so.

Someone in russian forum calculated AI's gumption by MVI v1.4 (Measuring of virtual intelligence) for MSFS (farcically, but nevertheless):

 

 

MSFS - 1.0

War Thunder - 0.34

Wings of Prey- 0.44

IL-2 (2001) - 1.28

IL-2 1946 until v.4.09 - 1.38

HSFX 7.03 - 1.54

CloD -1.12 (last official patch)

BoS 1.009 -1.04

 

 

 

From my own experience, allied AI in BoS is kettlebell on the leg.

IMHO.

 

Yes, that is what I wanted to say.

 

Don`t know about AI calculations or charts, I just play games and observe. Based on these observations I make my judgement on AI. I think it is the only way to measure AI.  BoS AI feels way better than CloD to me.

So I really don`t have any proof of that, it is just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Same goes for FM, it just feels better in BoS. Famous feel of flight. CloD FM feels somewhat obsolete after flying BoS. I am not an expert on these matters, haven`t flown a real Bf-109 so no idea which one is in fact correct but that`s the way it feels.

 

IMHO of course

 

 

Edit: By the way, this inspired me to reinstall CloD . Maybe try some of its campaigns again.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Zami

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

So, you want to say that BoS AI is better than in CloD? :\ I don't think so.

Yep, I do. The AI in clod is a joke. Take off, 3 minutes later wingman reports "this is acorn, I'm going back to base." Ehhh ok why? This happens virtually all the time. You Intercept bandits high usually on your own, because said wingman returned to base for tea and crumpets probably, general turn fight "running on rails" ensues for a couple of minutes. Suddenly they break off,  dive down low and head straight and level all the way back to base. its at this point you follow on their six shooting the remaining "fish in a barrel."

 

This is of course just my opinion and many will not agree. I'm not going to completely knock Clod because what has been achieved, particularly by TF has been just excellent.

 

Saying that though, having spent numerous hours flying in both sims there really is no comparison for me when it comes to the core element, the FM's. I just can't go back to Clod anymore. It just a feels substandard and disappointing flying experience  when comparing it to Bos.

[FuriousMeow]

Whenever I see CloD vs BoS, or BoS vs Clod, threads I wonder to myself - what state will BoS be in when it has had 6 more years of development? After all, CloD has had 8 years of development including TF's reverse engineering/hacking/modding. I don't mean the reverse engineer/hack to be derogatory it is simply what has been done, they don't have access to the source code and have literally hacked it to change the game. As it was, CloD was terrible until TF. So adding in TF, that's a few years more of "development."

 

So why compare a 2 year old title to an 8 year old title?

 

As far as preference, play what you want. Who cares? I will only play BoS, and subsequent theaters/release/etc, for a litany of reasons - none of which impact someone who will only play CloD, and vice versa.

Edited June 5, 2015 by FuriousMeow