Livai Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 I'll tell you a thing about history....go read the old UbI forums and go right back to page 50 or so and read the hatred and scorn poured on CLOD while a handful of people attempted to say the same thing I just did. The sim and it's devs finally went under and suddenly CLOD has become that golden goose, that thing that must never be criticized. Maybe back then people should have thought twice before opening their mouths and slagging off something that was still in the early stages of development and just given it a chance to survive? Had they done a preorder for BOM under 1C/MG I would have stumped up and paid for it despite CLOD being unplayable for me but that's the difference between the cup half full/empty people isn't it? If CloD become a golden goose I really not care. CloD dead was already programmed during the development. They could stop the development Anno 2009. It is a shame to deliver Anno 2011 this kind Quality during a very long development. I just need to compare the RoF Release Trailer Anno 2009 against CloD Dev Diary Trailer Vol.1 Anno 2011 to see what sim I really like more. It is RoF because graphic alone is not the whole game. If I should decide between graphic or gameplay I choose the gameplay because this is more important than graphic. Graphic alone never improve a broken gameplay elements like AI, landscape pop-ups what CloD had. And this is what I expect from BoS. It was many times said look at RoF and see what you can expect. I bought all RoF DLC what RoF had and have a lot fun with them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzZiIByxgQA The missing content can be only explain because 1C Game Studios has the command here. Somehow remember me this CloD history. However they see what we want. We need to find the middle for both side. Remain silent is never good. Specially this games need us to be alive. But what we really not need here are people who dislike the Core from the game. We talk here not about the Core from the game. We talk here what is around the Core. I still not understand their statements like this was not popular or only for the talentend class is never good. RoF has a lot talented people according to the Devs because they have all the Mods On Mode. I have RoF and I have the Mods On Mode what means I am talented. 1
Bearcat Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 Something that is never far from my mind in discussions like this. From the ATAG forum but I would suspect these figures are bang on. poll.JPG That is interesting.. Check this out from a similar 2004 poll @ UBI by the way ... this poll will be a sho nuff blast from the past if you read through that entire thread... From 8-26-04 .... It seems not much has changed... note that the 50+ percentage has increased ... The truth doesn't hurt me at all if WW2 sims go down the toilet I wont be affected one tiny bit other than feeling a bit sad that a bunch of miserable moaners trashed their own hobby. I've got plenty of other hobbies and not enough time to do them. I'll tell you a thing about history....go read the old UbI forums and go right back to page 50 or so and read the hatred and scorn poured on CLOD while a handful of people attempted to say the same thing I just did. The sim and it's devs finally went under and suddenly CLOD has become that golden goose, that thing that must never be criticized. Maybe back then people should have thought twice before opening their mouths and slagging off something that was still in the early stages of development and just given it a chance to survive? Had they done a preorder for BOM under 1C/MG I would have stumped up and paid for it despite CLOD being unplayable for me but that's the difference between the cup half full/empty people isn't it? GREAT POST!! :salute: :salute: :salute: Actually it is quite interesting going back to look at some of those threads at UBI period. There was a lot of good stuff there.... You have to look up a user and then search for their posts though because if you just go to the forum it will only go back 3 pages...
SCG_Neun Posted May 29, 2015 Author Posted May 29, 2015 I believe there is a general theme with some of the issues with this game...We've looked at them from every angle and it is what it is. Like I said starting this thread off....you're either in or you're out. But, I do believe that respectfully asking some core questions about the game...information that seems to be pushed back off the table, with new plane diagrams, maps, boats.....whatever, is never a bad thing. If everyone just sat back and bobbed their heads in agreement, and thanked the Dev's for that next plane diagram, do you think we'd get some of the candid answers we just recently received? I can't believe that many of those that don't understand the reason for asking hard questions were not interested in the answers that would not have come....unless somebody asked...and pushed the point. Changes in FM's, unlocks, structural design, have all come about by the efforts of people pushing for changes that would make this game better, and those changes have done just that. Many of them were demonized, and most of them are not here on the forum anymore. But you can thank them....for some of these changes, or curse them for ruining the happy sunshine feeling some would like. That's not attacking the game...it's just wanting to know where we are headed and what can be expected...realistically. This game is not CloD, never will be...that's a road we don't need to rehash to ad nauseam. We've had some vicious attacks concerning this game throughout the production journey, but as far as I can tell here on the forum, that's something that seems to be a thing of the past for the most part. Hence...moving forward....
6./ZG26_Emil Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 Only most most extreme fanboys bobbed their heads in agreement to the things we all didn't like but there is a huge difference to people who voice their opinions to those that trashed BOS on metacritic and steam in the most childish way possible. No one in their right mind should thank those people and the damage they could have done might have resulted in the entire project being canned....hence why people bring up CLOD, it is a very valid comparison. 5
SCG_Neun Posted May 29, 2015 Author Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) I agree Emil...there is a huge difference in those people, and no one should be thanked for giving a game a score who just out of spite and vindictiveness want something to fail. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. But there were guys who pointed out things, who did not want this game to fail and did not participate in that calamity. I can think of one....right off the bat who did a comprehensive study on the visibility of the FW and refraction. He caught a lot of grief, but there were changes made..... Comparisons of CLoD...I understand that as well....but there comes a time when we have to admit.....the simple fact that BOS just cant' be the online war server simulations that many of our online squadrons desire. AbortedMan and others are doing the best they can, but it will never be a CLoD. So why complain now about that....I'm asking those guys..not you Emil. It's just the way it is....can't we move on, past this now and fine tune this game for what it can do. Edited May 29, 2015 by JagdNeun
6./ZG26_Emil Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 Sure thing. I think we will see some cool stuff happen in this sim especially online. We did a test run of a Co-Op (run on the Syndicate server) and all it takes is someone to make a mission and run it. Granted it's harder without a lobby but definitely not impossible plus 48 players is more than enough to run a brilliant mission in co-op style and as far as the DF servers go it's a rare night we don't see the bad guys and get in to a nice fight. I think people need to just be a little more creative and like you say once people get over the fact that their preferred feature couldn't be implemented I strongly advice they try out the stuff that is there; online it's best to join a squad and offline they should try out the cool missions like veteran and Juri made, heck even building your own missions isn't that hard once you wrap your head around it. Also on your website there is that Excel spreadsheet pilot tracker than was made for CLOD, that's the kind of imagination that fills the gaps in what we have in BOS and a lot better than my notepad document which I am using for our Dead is Dead campaign. Finally as someone who played CLOD online (for hundreds of hours) there is virtually zero difference to the experience you get on the DF servers there and what we have have with BOS regardless of the player caps.
Wolf8312 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) The truth doesn't hurt me at all if WW2 sims go down the toilet I wont be affected one tiny bit other than feeling a bit sad that a bunch of miserable moaners trashed their own hobby. I've got plenty of other hobbies and not enough time to do them. I'll tell you a thing about history....go read the old UbI forums and go right back to page 50 or so and read the hatred and scorn poured on CLOD while a handful of people attempted to say the same thing I just did. The sim and it's devs finally went under and suddenly CLOD has become that golden goose, that thing that must never be criticized. Maybe back then people should have thought twice before opening their mouths and slagging off something that was still in the early stages of development and just given it a chance to survive? This is exactly how I feel too although it’s a tricky one because obviously no-one has the right to tell other people what they can, or should or shouldn’t be saying about any given product. I would have expected after the Clod fiasco that people would have learned to 'wait and see' more with flight Sims especially when BOS at its core is a wonderful game has so much obvious potential. I really wish people would change their reviews on steam to be more positive for the time being, as everything they are complaining about not having at the moment will be surely very possible in the future providing that the game is not sunk by all the negative reviews. It comes down to capitalism at the end of the day and as long as the dev’s and publishers are able to milk the cash cow, they will keep on doing so and building upon and improving the game. Games like this are never finished as long as they are commercially successful. If it said 'overwhelmingly positive' on steam now instead of 'mixed' I’d feel the future for what is for me already a brilliant game would be very bright indeed. As it is I worry the community’s pessimism will end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do get why some veterans are not exactly over the moon with the SP content so far, as for veterans each game has to be better than the last, but it makes little sense to compare a game that has been out for a few months with games that have been out more than 10 years or more. IL 1946 was the original IL engine, but was it not due to the commercial success of the original game that new missions and a dynamic campaign was possible to then be created? Not only because the core game was already a big success but because it did not then need to be built from the ground floor upwards and freed the developers to turn their attention mostly to a SP campaign. Correct me if I am wrong though here. To be honest I don’t understand why anyone is that surprised about the relatively mediocre SP experience. I thought it was something of an IL tradition as my one lasting impression of the first IL game was how utterly lacking in immersive gameplay it was in every aspect outside of the core game itself. In short it never felt like a computer game, or that any effort whatsoever had been put into anything except the actual flying and fighting side of things. I think people for some reason were more able to forgive this back then -in the understanding that it was a sim- and are unable to do so now for some reason. Having remembered the SP with the original IL, I was -believe it or not- actually pleasantly surprised by the new BOS campaign! Wow videos for god’s sake! Is this not all the trade-off though of the dev’s having put all their energy into actually building the core architecture and flight mechanics of actual experience? Is it not completely understandable or was this just as with the all-white winter maps not just laziness and penny pinching on their part? I thought that the reason a game like GTA 5 can be an amazingly immersive SP experience with a rich (albeit corny) microcosmic narrative is also the reason that the driving, shooting, and flying mechanics are absolute crap! There has to be a trade off somewhere right? All that said BOM worries me a little and to be honest I would be interested to understand their line of thinking in making a whole new game rather than just trying to make the one they already have even better. I get the feeling that were they to give these new maps and planes (BOM) away for free as an update for BOS then they would already be feeling a lot more love and support from the community right now and would probably be set to make a lot more money than they will do unless BOM is offering up something very special in terms of the SP experience. Anyone else get the feeling that this is not going to be the case though? I say this not to be critical (I LOVE THIS GAME) I just genuinely worry about the games future and ability to survive if BOM and the dev’s ignore the main complaints, that BOS has been getting and I honestly believe that they will sell far more by making a wonderful and dynamic new SP campaign than they ever will if they just decide to put out new maps and aircrafts. I am praying that BOM will be basically the SP campaign that they didn’t have time for with BOS and hoping that as with 1946 the Devs won’t need to put as much effort into building the core mechanics of the game having already done so with BOS and therefore will be freed up to spend much more time working on a dynamic SP campaign. Of course I know nothing about these things to actually know if it works like that, but after all the negative feedback from the community if they release BOM with the same kind of SP mission generator content then I would find that rather baffling. Not because I personally would hate it but just because giving what has happened with BOS so far I could not possibly conceive how they would expect it to be successful with the veteran target audience. Moving on…. This game -and the obvious effort that has gone into it- does not deserve the criticism it has been getting and we are all as a community going to be dive bombing ourselves in the foot if we don’t get behind and support it. I seriously believe that everything that everyone wants from this game (MP and SP) will be forthcoming if only it sells big. It’s such an ironic situation but the very thing people want from the game will only be possible if it gets the support that they are refusing to give it. If we want continued dev support it might be an idea not to drive them out of business! Running onto steam to negatively review a game that has been out for only a few months because it lacks the content of a game that has been out for over 10 years or more is not fair and counterproductive for our own interests as well as theirs. I’m going to go and write a positive review on steam now and if people truly want this game to be successful I suggest they do the same. Please try to recognize how much potential this game has and give it the benefit of the doubt and for the time being at least wait and see. Could giving the game positive reviews despite having even serious reservations really hurt if it means that potentially we could end up with a game that thrives. I have serious concerns about BOM and if it means that BOS will end up getting totally neglected but I am going to put all these fears on hold for a few years and give this game my moral support. If the game turns out to be a lazy cash grab then a few years down the road I will happily change it. Edited May 31, 2015 by TheNoobleWurtha
3instein Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 "if they release BOM with the same kind of SP mission generator content then I would find that rather baffling." I can't find the link right now, but it has been stated several times that BoM is to have the same SP campaign (mission generator) structure as BoS. Mick.
SharpeXB Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) I can't find the link right now, but it has been stated several times that BoM is to have the same SP campaign (mission generator) structure as BoS.The mission generator structure is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes it could be livened up with more variety and such. But it provides an infinite set of missions that won't run out like a static set of chapters. The RoF Career and Pat Wilson Campaing Generator of course use this system. 1CGS hinted at some improvements in the last diary so we'll see. Edited May 31, 2015 by SharpeXB
Bearcat Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 I believe there is a general theme with some of the issues with this game...We've looked at them from every angle and it is what it is. Like I said starting this thread off....you're either in or you're out. But, I do believe that respectfully asking some core questions about the game...information that seems to be pushed back off the table, with new plane diagrams, maps, boats.....whatever, is never a bad thing. If everyone just sat back and bobbed their heads in agreement, and thanked the Dev's for that next plane diagram, do you think we'd get some of the candid answers we just recently received? I can't believe that many of those that don't understand the reason for asking hard questions were not interested in the answers that would not have come....unless somebody asked...and pushed the point. Changes in FM's, unlocks, structural design, have all come about by the efforts of people pushing for changes that would make this game better, and those changes have done just that. Many of them were demonized, and most of them are not here on the forum anymore. But you can thank them....for some of these changes, or curse them for ruining the happy sunshine feeling some would like. That's not attacking the game...it's just wanting to know where we are headed and what can be expected...realistically. This game is not CloD, never will be...that's a road we don't need to rehash to ad nauseam. We've had some vicious attacks concerning this game throughout the production journey, but as far as I can tell here on the forum, that's something that seems to be a thing of the past for the most part. Hence...moving forward.... This post is.. very problematic for me to digest. Most of the FM changes were wrought because people did what the developers asked.. they made a claim and backed it up with facts.. They did their homework and when it was all said and done the devs made the necessary changes. You are lumping all the problems with BoS into one basket when in fact there were several different problems, some which still persist to this day, and many of those problems were handled in very different ways, some of the problems and the way that some members of the community handled them have proven very detrimental to the growth of this sim to this day... I also find statements like "ruining the happy sunshine feeling some would like" to be very condescending at best and insulting as all get out at worst because it was never about any kind of happy sunshine feeling and making statements like that whether you mean to or not insinuate that people who saw the flaws in BoS from day one and decided to give the sim a serious go in spite of those flaws that many of them themselves repeatedly spoke out against were somehow delusional or just plain stupid. Which is not the case at all so please let's just dispense with the "happy sunshine, drinking the kool aid, rose colored glasses" kind of rhetoric. Everyone saw the flaws in BoS from day one for what they were and most folks did indeed acknowledge them. Some decided to continue to support the sim and never waivered from voicing their displeasure, just look at some of the polls that were made concerning some of those issues and the posts in them from supporters and detractors alike. The attitude that made some folks see even things like the polls themselves as somehow being the evil machinations of the party bosses against the masses, somehow managing dissent in some nefarious way, a sentiment that I might add whose exact tone has been expressed often many many times in other places that I shall not mention .. but more than just one place... .. had a lot to do with the rancor that was on this forum and throughout this community and most likely .. and this is just my opinion.. I have nothing to base this on as far as direct input from anyone else.. but that same attitude .. that looked at a Developer Diary with 65 updates (DD 89 ) as a failure because it did not address the unlocks... probably had more top do with the developers digging in their heels on certain issues than it did in making them change their minds about anything. Some of this stuff got very nasty, very ugly .. and very personal unnecessarily and if "Moving Froward" is the goal then statements like the one I quoted above need to become a thing of the past. There are no rose colored glasses here and there are no Smurfs here.. we all see this sim for what it is, warts and all and we always have... it is just that some of us made a choice from the moment we clicked send on that Buy Now button to see it for what it is and support it because the alternative, if it tanks, is that we will basically have what would amount to no developer supported dedicated WWII sim for the time being and still pending DCS WWII notwithstanding, back in 2012 it was not on the radar.... What we would be left with is.. a modern era sim with some WWII content, an arcade game that may be fun for many .. but it is no sim.. , two modded sims that are great in their own space .. but both abandoned by their developers and anything else that is still out there ... not worth mentioning. Now I know that for some that is not an issue and they have whatever it is that they have that floats their boat and they are happy with it and that's cool.. HOWEVER.. for me personally and many others supporting BoS part of that goal is to try to insure that this thing that we do, that we all enjoy continues to have a team of paid developers behind it as opposed to the alternative or a team of unpaid modders. All those great fixes for CoD ? Well they had to be made by modders.. because many folks did not support the sim (whether it was worthy of that support or not is moot for the sake of this discussion.. the bottom line is that it was not supported.. and now it is mod supported, when in fact it should have been expanding into it's 3rd or 4th theater by now). I think.. as do many others .. that BoS may have it's issues and some of them are not small and that this team has made some sho nuff steps and falls and roll arounds in huge piles of poop along the way.. but BoS has hosed off pretty nicely.. and while there may still be some stains and an odor attached because of said missteps.. it is at least presentable and hopefully we will get to a shower and a washing machine to clean up the rest over the next year or so give or take a few months.. This sim cost less than an IMAX 3D movie with grub for 4. I never saw what the level of drama was about. Moving forward..? Yup.. how about it... let's do that. Only most most extreme fanboys bobbed their heads in agreement to the things we all didn't like but there is a huge difference to people who voice their opinions to those that trashed BOS on metacritic and steam in the most childish way possible. No one in their right mind should thank those people and the damage they could have done might have resulted in the entire project being canned....hence why people bring up CLOD, it is a very valid comparison. My sentiments exactly, and even the "extreme fanboys" acknowledged the issues that existed (and still do to a degree) ... Just read the history for yourself because in spite of the rhetoric about censorship and disallowed criticism most of that is still here to see all you have to do is look for it .If anything it was the people who saw the flaws and still supported the sim through out irregardless and never waivered from voicing their displeasure along the way that had more of an impact on some things like unlocks and changes to FMs and many of the things that were changed than the loudest critics who slammed this sim, it's develoipers, it's fum, it's moderators.. and it's supporters at every turn and did everything in their power to dissuade anyone from giving it the time of day. Fortunately for all of us this sim is still a work in progress .. I look forward to seeing where it is a year from now and I look forward to the next 3 months.. I cannot wait to get a Mustang modeled in here.. @ Nooble... IIRC from what I heard.. (I came to IL2 in ver 1.2 ov I think it was.. been in FB from day one..) the original IL2's SP was not all that... It was a community member who came up with DGEN and later another community member who came up with the DCG. Great post by the way.
SCG_Neun Posted May 31, 2015 Author Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Well, sorry for sounding condescending....I suppose it might at that. My only thought was sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Got my fingers crossed for some really neat changes perhaps in the not so distant future. Salute to all.....whether you agree or not. Edited May 31, 2015 by JagdNeun
Bearcat Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Well, sorry for sounding condescending....I suppose it might at that. My only thought was sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Got my fingers crossed for some really neat changes perhaps in the not so distant future. Salute to all.....whether you agree or not. Look man don't make this something it isn't.. just because I disagree with a post you make doesn't mean you are not entitled to post it. I commented on why I found it problematic and parts of it condescending .. I think I was pretty clear about that.. and had I found it problematic as a moderator it would have been edited or what have you.. but it was not.. My problem with the post was not that it broke any rules or any such thing.. Again .. my problem with your post was not as a moderator but as a forum member and a fan of BoS and I should not be expected to not behave as such just because I am a moderator on this forum. I suggest you read it again if you feel that in some way you have been slighted or moderated or censored or threatened.. in any way shape or form. That was not what my response to your post was about at all. If you still have issues with my response to you now please feel free to take it to a PM. P.S. .For the record.. . this post was a direct response to your above post and another post you made elsewhere indirectly referencing this incident which has subsequently been removed.. and it is done with the sole intent of clearing the air since it was apparent to me that your feelings on my comments to you ran deeper than you expressed in the post you made above.
=CFC=Conky Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) Hey Bearcat, Your post illustrates perfectly the dilemma facing a forum moderator; your personal opinions run the risk of becoming official forum policy in the eyes of some members, a hole that can be difficult to dig yourself out of. In the ten or so years that I have frequented forums where you have been a member/moderator I have always found you to be fair and honest with your posts. Good hunting, CFC_Conky Edited June 3, 2015 by CFC_Conky
Bearcat Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) Hey Bearcat, Your post illustrates the dilemma about being a moderator; your personal opinions run the risk of becoming official forum policy in the eyes of some members, a hole that can be difficult to dig yourself out of. In the ten or so years that I have frequented forums where you have been a member/moderator I have always found you to be fair and honest with your posts. Good hunting, CFC_Conky How so..? My posts do no such thing. Especially as it relates to this thread..? Thank you for the compliment .. it is appreciated.. but I just don't see how my opinions can become policy. There are admins who monitor these boards just as we mods do and I do not make policy here.. the admins tell us what the policy is and we execute it. Where I have been wrong throughout the past 13 years whether I was a moderator or a forum member I have never had a problem with admitting it. The opinion that many who bought BoS/BoM actually are not "psycohants" "seeing all sunshine and roses" or "Have their head in the sand" or "drinking any kool aide" or somehow blind misguided paid shills... any number of terms indirectly and in some cases directly tossed around the flight sim community by many... to describe the the people who made a conscious choice to still support this sim in spite of it's flaws as opposed to walking away from it and not supporting it because of them cannot become policy it is just an opinion but it is an accurate one based on the people here on this forum who still support BoS. They are some of it's biggest critics. My saying "Most of the FM changes were wrought because people did what the developers asked.. they made a claim and backed it up with facts.. They did their homework and when it was all said and done the devs made the necessary changes." is a fact.. the devs said so.. "This sim cost less than an IMAX 3D movie with grub for 4. " is a fact.. That this is the only developer supported dedicated WWII sim on the market at the moment.. is not just my opinion .. based on the criteria I stated it is a fact at least until either A)A developer picks up CoD or B)DCS releases it's WWII map and objects.. Those are not just my opinions.. they are facts and none of them could ever become policy. Truth be told Conky.. let's just cut to the chase with this.. There may very well be a lot of newcomers walking around whose first venture into this rodeo as far as flight sim forums goes is here.. but for the most part the most vocal, vociferous critics of this sim who frequent here and elsewhere are not newcomers, they are not children and some of them have been a part of the IL2 community since before I got here in 2002... The OP made a statement I disagreed with it as a BoS supporter and forum memebr.. and said so.. We need to get this thread back on topic or at least debate the merits or methodologies of moving forward.. This thread is not about me nor should it be and I will not let it be. Surely we can discuss this without some of the tone that has been a part of this discussion for far too long. Edited June 3, 2015 by Bearcat Edited because I hit send too soon..
Sokol1 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 "if they release BOM with the same kind of SP mission generator content then I would find that rather baffling. " Is already announced that the SP in BoM will be the same of BoS. Deny or not believed in this now will be like what happen to almost BoS EA buyers that don't believed, despite clear announced in early DD's, that BoS came with unlocks system. Not because I personally would hate it but just because giving what has happened with BOS so far I could not possibly conceive how they would expect it to be successful with the veteran target audience. The target audience is not this kind of players, base on (producers) statistics: "The vast majority of simmers are not hardcore guys. Never have been. Most just love airplanes and the feeling of flight and dogfighting. Most users play just QMB." So, the QMB Campaign fit OK for BoS, BoM and what comes after.
Bearcat Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Perhaps... but ... "Meanwhile the team is busy creating the project's future. New chapters of the Stalingrad campaign are to be released along with two extra seasonal maps that will be given out for free to all BOS players in a few months. At the same time we keep working on technologies that will improve gameplay in many aspects. Such enchancements are often very hard to describe and even harder - to show, however there's one of the those which you'll probably notice on the last screenshot below. And please remember that BOS and BOM are sharing all of our technological and creative achievements, it's a united project and we care about both parts of it equally." ... so we shall surely see. Hopefully when BoM is released there will be enough there to move some folks off the fence.
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